Pup's Front Feet

[TYLER23]

I suspect that our pup’s front feet are slightly deformed, and looking for some advice. I did search through past threads and came across east/west front and Valgus Deformity, so i guess i'm looking for some confirmation.

He is a 6 month old Staffordshire Bull Terrier (desexed 2 weeks ago), currently on Artemis dry food for brekky and either chicken wings, roo tail, chicken carcass, lamb flap or roo mince for dinner. He also gets raw eggs, sardines, mashed vegies and yoghurt a couple of times a week.

The breeder raised the litter on Supercoat dry and Optimum wet which we soon changed to Advance and now Artemis. He is doing well on Artemis and his coat looks great.

He is in no visible pain, and his feet don’t seem to bother him at all. He has a short toe on each front foot which the vet told us won’t cause any problems apart from regular nail clipping, but we’re more concerned about the outward angle of the feet, and the apparent narrowness at the top of the elbows (hope that makes sense). You’ll notice that one of his toes turns outwards as well.

I did speak to the breeder when we noticed the short toe but this was before we noticed the angled feet. She sent some photos of his parents and you can clearly see that mum has the same issues. She did say that the short toe has never caused her a problem, but again, we didn’t cover the angled feet.

Here are some pics of our pup:

If you look closely at his front right foot in the following pic, you can see that how outward turned his foot can be depending on how he stands

And a pic of mum:

Other threads suggest that diet and supplements may help…any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the long post, but we are worried and want to make sure our pup is ok.

[Crisovar]

Are you talking about his front dew claws? The claw higher up on the inside of his front legs?

If so that is normal, they are supposed to be there.

As for the feet turning out, from those photos I would not be too worried, he is a growing pup and many do go through stages where feet turn out and they go down in pastern.

[ellz]

OK first of all. Stafford fronts are slightly different from many other breeds in that the front feet do NATURALLY turn out slightly. They don't face fully to the front and it does mention that in the standard.

Given that the puppy is 6 months old and lacks chest development, I personally don't think that the front/legs are too bad at this stage. Others may disagree but for my part, for a companion Stafford, I don't see a huge problem with the front itself. Vitamin C supplementation might help, but avoid bulking up on too much calcium which can create even more issues. The natural calcium you are giving is a good way to start though. When you say mashed veges...do you mean COOKED mashed veges? If so, stop the cooking you are removing a lot of the natural goodness. Better to mince or put them through a juicer and feed the pulp.

The feet however are a different thing altogether. For a start, the toenails are WAY too long and it is partly this that would be causing the obviously already flat toes to spread. This can also contribute to the weakening of the pasterns (wrists). Those nails need to be shortened and KEPT short.

The mother's front foot is dreadful and I have to question why anybody would be breeding from her. IMO, that front foot alone (unless it occurred in an accident and the rest of the bitch is spot on), would have eliminated her from my breeding program!

[sas]

Looks like east / west to me, also looks like you need to keep on top of the nail trimming as well.

I think you need to first start talking with the Breeder of the pup about this and keep speaking with your Vet. In Danes, we use Vit C as a supplement for these kinds of problems but I wouldn't have a clue about Staffy dossage.

[Sandra777]

Wow, mum's front is not good. I hope she got this way through an accident.

He looks like he's knuckling over a bit, which can happen if they have a big growth spurt. He's quite a hefty lad isn't he? (Vague memory from some other thread). I would be looking at vitamin C and absolutely NOT increasing artifical calcium intake - in fact if you are feeding him puppy dry food I would stop and give him adult or giant breed puppy whichever you feel more comfortable with. I would also not feed him any meat which doesn't contain bone (eg ditch the roo mince and just give him the other ones you mentioned). I would be looking to slow his growth rate as much as possible.

What exercise does he get - I would not be walking him on concrete paths or allowing him to run a lot on hard packed ground - soft sand, softer turf for me for a few weeks.

Don't let the vet talk you into anything major, the heavier boned Staffords can do horrible things with their legs while they're growing.

Crisovar - have a look at the outside of the pup's feet - the side toes don't touch the ground, genetic malformation in Staffords and I think Bostons have the problem too? (maybe it's French Bulldogs, maybe I'm totally wrong)

Edited February 6, 2010 by Sandra777

[puggy_puggy]

I personally can't see much going on in the photos but there could be.

How much are you feeding? If you are over feeding funny things can happen with legs and feet. Perhaps try cutting back his food a bit for a week or so and see what occurs.

I don't feed dry food but the actual diet you are feeding seems fine.

OMG the mothers photo is not that clear but she does seem to have an obvious deformity. Why was she bred with? These deformities can be genetic.

The only way to really know if there is a deformity is to xray.

[TYLER23]

Are you talking about his front dew claws? The claw higher up on the inside of his front legs?

If so that is normal, they are supposed to be there.

As for the feet turning out, from those photos I would not be too worried, he is a growing pup and many do go through stages where feet turn out and they go down in pastern.

No, not his dew claws, it is his outer most toe on each foot. You can see it in this pic.

[TYLER23]

OK first of all. Stafford fronts are slightly different from many other breeds in that the front feet do NATURALLY turn out slightly. They don't face fully to the front and it does mention that in the standard.

Given that the puppy is 6 months old and lacks chest development, I personally don't think that the front/legs are too bad at this stage. Others may disagree but for my part, for a companion Stafford, I don't see a huge problem with the front itself. Vitamin C supplementation might help, but avoid bulking up on too much calcium which can create even more issues. The natural calcium you are giving is a good way to start though. When you say mashed veges...do you mean COOKED mashed veges? If so, stop the cooking you are removing a lot of the natural goodness. Better to mince or put them through a juicer and feed the pulp.

The feet however are a different thing altogether. For a start, the toenails are WAY too long and it is partly this that would be causing the obviously already flat toes to spread. This can also contribute to the weakening of the pasterns (wrists). Those nails need to be shortened and KEPT short.

The mother's front foot is dreadful and I have to question why anybody would be breeding from her. IMO, that front foot alone (unless it occurred in an accident and the rest of the bitch is spot on), would have eliminated her from my breeding program!

Ellz, at what age can we expect his chest to really start filling out?

How often, how much and what type of Vit C should we be giving him?

No, the veges aren't cooked, i simply put them through a blender with a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar.

I normally clip his nails every two weeks or so, should i be doing it say weekly?

I couldn't agree with you more re your last comments... unfortunately it wasn't until after we got him home, that i started reading in depth threads regarding breeding, and what to really look out for when searching for a pup. We just assumed that buying from any registered breeder was the way to go and the right thing to do.

[TYLER23]

Wow, mum's front is not good. I hope she got this way through an accident.

He looks like he's knuckling over a bit, which can happen if they have a big growth spurt. He's quite a hefty lad isn't he? (Vague memory from some other thread). I would be looking at vitamin C and absolutely NOT increasing artifical calcium intake - in fact if you are feeding him puppy dry food I would stop and give him adult or giant breed puppy whichever you feel more comfortable with. I would also not feed him any meat which doesn't contain bone (eg ditch the roo mince and just give him the other ones you mentioned). I would be looking to slow his growth rate as much as possible.

What exercise does he get - I would not be walking him on concrete paths or allowing him to run a lot on hard packed ground - soft sand, softer turf for me for a few weeks.

Don't let the vet talk you into anything major, the heavier boned Staffords can do horrible things with their legs while they're growing.

Crisovar - have a look at the outside of the pup's feet - the side toes don't touch the ground, genetic malformation in Staffords and I think Bostons have the problem too? (maybe it's French Bulldogs, maybe I'm totally wrong)

He was 16kg two weeks ago, at 6 months of age.

Yep, he is on Artemis medium breed puppy formula. Again, what type dosage of Vit C.

He gets walked almost every day (15-20 mins max) on a combination of concrete/grass, plus whatever games we play in the backyard.

[TYLER23]

I personally can't see much going on in the photos but there could be.

How much are you feeding? If you are over feeding funny things can happen with legs and feet. Perhaps try cutting back his food a bit for a week or so and see what occurs.

I don't feed dry food but the actual diet you are feeding seems fine.

OMG the mothers photo is not that clear but she does seem to have an obvious deformity. Why was she bred with? These deformities can be genetic.

The only way to really know if there is a deformity is to xray.

He gets a cup of dry in the morning, and approx 300-350g of RMB in the evening, along with the extras mentioned above a couple of time a week.

[WreckitWhippet]

Cutting the nails and keeping them short may see some improvement but if I had to guess , I'd say the bulk of it is genetic and not diet related.

ETA: He needs to be kept at a weight where you can feel his ribs and he has a defined tuck.

Edited February 7, 2010 by SBT123

[TYLER23]

Don't think he's overweight, you can feel his ribs and his belly tucks away at the rear.

[Erny]

I'd need to see better photo's but is there a hint of carpet laxity syndrome in there? This is where the bones in the legs grow at a faster rate than the ligaments can stretch - the ligaments then pull down not allowing the bones to straighten. If you catch this earlier enough and very carefully monitor diet and weight gain, it is possible these will grow out.

My boy had this although his was far more severe than what your picture shows :

I think he was about 9 weeks old in this photo (need to check date). He was a skinny pup when I picked him up and I desperately wanted to put some weight on him but if I fed too much it went into a growth spurt, so I had to make sure that he gained weight slowly but steadily, rather than focus on weight gain at that time. That was so hard to do because I hated to see him so thin, but for these efforts, thankfully his front legs have grown out straight. If you don't catch this early enough, it can become a permanent deformity.

ETA: This cause of this condition is generally either over nutrition, or under nutrition.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

You can see the affect the bowed legs had on the twist (lean over) in his feet more so in this photo :

ETA: To the OP - in your case definitely needs a nail trim. That can make a big difference. Not certain that your dog's problem is the same as I had, as the photo's certainly don't appear to be showing signs of knees knuckling over.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Erny

[Sandra777]

He was 16kg two weeks ago, at 6 months of age.

Wow, yep that's one big boy.

Yep, he is on Artemis medium breed puppy formula.

Do they do a giant breed one?

Again, what type dosage of Vit C.

If it's not used it's excreted so IMO give him the amount recommended for a child, it won't hurt him even if it does nothing. Use the plainest pill you can find in the supermarket - doesn't need to be chocolate flavoured with plastic toy included

[TYLER23]

Sandra,

His parents are approx 22kg and 19kg, so we are expecting him to hit the 20kg mark at full maturity.

I just checked the Artemis site, and his mix is actually a medium/large breed puppy formula, http://www.artemispetfood.com.au/dog_10.htm full product range is here, http://www.artemispetfood.com.au/products_dog_1.htm I still have half a bag left ($50 worth) so not so keen to toss it out. Should i put him straight onto the adult formula once he finishes this bag? They have a regular and weight management formula.

So it's ok to give him Vit C daily, or every other day to be on the safe side?

Just an update, i clipped his nails this morning, is this more of the length i should be keeping them at?

Last pic, i promise, here's the little fella...

Thanks for putting up with my jibber jabber, but we really want to put our minds at ease.

[Sandra777]

So it's ok to give him Vit C daily, or every other day to be on the safe side?

If it's not used it's excreted. Vitamin C is pretty difficult to OD on, give him a child's dose and if he reacts in any way stop immediately, but honestly it's really unlikely to do any harm. It may not help either