Dog To Dog Testing

[leopuppy04]

Just looking for other peoples ideas here :D

How would you conduct a dog to dog test with an unknown dog (given that the tester dog was stable)

How would other behaviours you see in a dog (eg: resource guarding) change your opinion about the dog that you are testing in regards to other dogs, if at all??

What would be a complete fail for you to cease the test immediately (obviously before a full blown attack), given that, sometimes it is warranted for some dogs to growl a little bit at another dog who is being plain rude!

At what line would you draw in terms of rehabilitation work? Does the dog have to be seriously aggressive, or would you have a very short line?!

How would this change for puppies <6mths of age?!

Edited February 2, 2010 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

Are we talking about dogs to rehome or dogs already in a home, bonded to family?

We conduct dog to dog tests on lead- yes we've been asked about dogs that are only aggressive on lead but given that we use our own dogs and given that we're talking about dogs to be rehomed who ARE going to be on lead for some time, the lead is a must for us. In the assessment we let the dogs pull and 'do what they do', if a poor result is evident, we then test again at the end once we have the dog walking on a loose lead, and more settled.

I find it really hard to explain preceeding body language that causes us to cease a test apart from the obvious. The dogs we use as a control dog are not rude so it takes 'appropriate correction' out of the equasion for most dogs. Overt aggression is different to dogs that simply dislike other dogs in their face though, critical distance is important as is the intensity of any reaction. Again this is re tested at the end of the test where we can actually engage the dog in some training and see how they respond- this is different from assessment.

Resource guarding doesn't instantly change how we feel about the dog in relation to others- depends on the rest of the test.

If we are talking dogs to rehome- we draw the line where the aggression is such that average people with average training will not succeed in rehab. There are some dogs who we will say need in house training first and then we re assess to see whether at that point an average person with average training could continue the dogs progress. Dogs who need months of work with a behaviourist- and pose a threat in the mean time- may fail.

Puppies under 6 months are a little different but we look at the assessment as a whole to determine what the best option will be. I will often see how the under 6 months respond to an alpha bitch as it gives me an understanding of whether they have any clue about dog body language. I don't think we have ever failed a dog under 6 months but many have been made training compulsory or re-assess, in house shelter training required.

I hope this is what you're after- if not, sorry for the long post!

ETA You're welcome to come and view some of our assessments at some stage if you'd like or we have a workshop in June

Edited February 2, 2010 by Cosmolo

[leopuppy04]

Thanks Cosmolo -these were the types of answers I was after moreso than you dictating what you do, so this is great

I guess what I mean about what will cause you to fail a test is that some will write in their protocol 'if a dog barks more than 4 times', or 'as soon as the dog growls' they will cease tests and fail the dog, whereas I feel that it really does depend on the individual dog and what the rest of the body is saying also.

How many dog tests would you do? Do you also tests males and females etc,etc?

we are certainly talking dogs to re-home :D

Would you then rate any potential aggression seriously in a puppy >6mths of age?! For example, if you saw a puppy showing some behaviours that were reason for concern, would you be more concerned about this dog, rather than a 5 year old dog showing the same behaviours?!

The argument can be - the puppy is only xx mths old and easy to train out of it, or the other argument can be WOW the puppy is only xx mths old and it's already behaving like THAT....

For those that don't formally dog test, what would you invisage to be the 'ideal' scenario?!

Edited February 2, 2010 by leopuppy04

[Cosmolo]

We test with a confident male first- if the dog is excellent, we do not test with another dog (time constraints) If there is anything of concern at all, we then test with a female. If the dog has a high prey drive, we endeavour to test with a small dog but our capacity to do this can be limited as we don't have a small dog ourselves. I don't like testing with other shelter dogs- a non shelter dog is always preferred.

We don't have anything in our protocols that says 'one growl, 4 barks' etc. A dog will score a 4 for growls/ stiffness, a 5 for lunging/ trying to bite etc but is then re tested at the end of the test once we can 'train'.

LP- you might be interested in the temp assessment thread i started in dog rescue too.

I would be concerned about a puppy showing potentially reactive/ aggressive behaviours but then want to look at other things- has the dog had any training, how sensitive is the dog, how do they respond to pressure from an alpha dog, what is the rest of their assessment telling us. These pups would be made training compulsory and i would want to see them for training and socialisation asap- i have adopted a 12 week old who was reactive to dogs (Dexter- our big black/white boy) and with the right training and socialisation he is now fabulous and in fact, our testing dog. If he had however, gone somewhere where he did not receive socialisation and training, i have no doubt that he would be a dog aggressive 'brat'.

The thing with younger dogs is that they have not been practicing the behaviour for as long as the 5 year old. But the real question is how does the dog respond to training? We tested an 8 month old who was almost unhandleable and did not respond well to various forms of training, whereas we ahve had older dogs who despite practicing the behaviour for longer have been SUPER responsive and a real dream to train. No blanket statements here- just individual dogs.

[leopuppy04]

Ok -so for pet dog owners... what do you expect... would you expect if you were to rehome / rescue a dog from anywhere that it would be dog tested.

Would you expect your 'new' dog to automatically get along with everything in sight, be ok for dog parks etc, or would you be happy if you could walk it down the street without it going off it's tree?

If the person you were adopting the dog from said 'this dog is only suited to on lead walks and off leash parks would be too stressful' would you abide by that, or do you think the average joe will take them anyway (to the park that is)

[ness]

As a pet owner it would depend on what I was looking for and in particular what breed I was looking for and for what purpose. If I was a first time pet owner with a family I would probably want something that was bullet proof and had a solid temperament.

If I was single/experienced owner/looking for a dog who had specific characteristics then you might be happy to accept a dog with issues that might need resolving.

[Cosmolo]

I know you're not talking to me :D But i think Ness is pretty spot on. There are certain characteristics that some people like that may also increase the propensity for the dog not being a social butterfly. As long as people are made aware of what they are getting, i think there is alot of room on the spectrum of 'friendliness'. I don't think only social butterfliers should pass assessments.

Sorry, i find it hard to be quiet when it comes to these kind of topics :D

[ness]

As I said breed specific to - neither of mine are social butterflies and I don't doubt that they would probably both fail a temperament assessment if that was the only criteria for rehoming. I have had discussions with friends in the context of performance sports that those with the higher drives tend to have slight personality quirks so again if I was looking for a dog for this purpose I would probably be willing to accept and work within what I had in order to get the drive for performance.

[Kavik]

I agree with ness too.

The majority of pet owners would want a dog with a rock solid temperament and social with other dogs etc.

For dog sports, considering the breeds/types I like, I would be willing to take a dog that would not like crowded dog parks/dogs in its face, but not one that is going to go off its tree at all other dogs. Since I would want a dog that would suit sports, high drive, biddable, keen etc I could work with the dog not having 'manners'.

[JulesP]

I think it is very unfair to rehome a dog to a normal pet home that is very reactive, ie can not go out for walks at all due to growling, barking and lunging at other dogs. It is reading people on DOL experiences with rescue dogs that has made me think this. I used to very much think that every dog deserved a chance. But now I think every family deserves a nice pet that isn't going to give them grief and need a behaviorist. My heart does bleed for these dogs though.

[ness]

I guess I would also be looking at the context of the aggression though. For instance my older girl sometimes exhibits behaviors which might be considered aggressive - she will take chase after another dog if we are somewhere like the beach, or even if we are out walking occasionally lunge/bark.

Yet she has been used to help socialise aggressive dogs at a club we trained at, she mixes regularly with other dogs at obedience and agility training, has travelled interstate and gone to live with strange dogs with no hassle, has been on pet expo stands with strange dogs walking past and anybody who has attended an Adelaide DOL meet will know she shows very little interest in so much as acknowledging the presence of another dog.

If you placed her in a temperament testing situation she might react to the dog and be labelled aggressive when in actual fact she is probably pretty bullet proof and unlikely to cause even a first time pet owner any problems.

[leopuppy04]

Certainly I am looking for answers not from a performance scale but for the 'average joe bloggs'

[ness]

Thoughts still stand LP - especially my comments re Ness. She would be fine in a normal pet home and I doubt cause people to many hassles and yet I guess may come up labelled aggressive on a temperament test. Also lots of dogs might be more prone to aggression in a stressful environment like that so you might be incorrectly labelling dogs who might make great pets.

[Cosmolo]

I question whether lots of dogs would be more prone to actual aggression in tests that involve the dog being taken to a calm quiet area- vital for any kind of assessment. I see many dogs who fence fight in their kennels but are very social or simply tolerant when we test them in a quiet enclosed backyard area. A little reactive, shy, stressed- yes- but actual aggression has more foundation than the environmental change in most cases.

LP this would probably be good in general discussion too- in the training forum remember you're going to get answers from most people who do a bit more than average as far as training goes.

[alpha bet]

This is one of my favorite subjects, so just have to comment. Have dealt with many dogs over the last 15 years who show aggression to other dogs. In my case tho it is not to assess dogs for rehoming but more to work with the families who already have got their dog.

Often the families get dogs (yes sometimes from shelters) and they have not been given much information about the dogs. Quite a few with strong reactions to other dogs and then families left trying to deal with a real handful.

I have found that it seems to take about 3 months for a family and a rehomed dog to fully develop a their relationship. I love it when a family starts some social classes as soon as they get their new dog because it does seem to speed up the process as we can get some good habits started from the beginning. Personally I feel there is often a lot of emphasis placed by the refuge onto assessing the dog but then there is often not the experience of dealing and educating the families.

In answer to your question : Many factors have to be taken into consideration however I am always happy to give dogs lots of opportunities to adjust. I don't expect instant acceptance but I do want to see a dog who is willing to consider different options. There are the rare case where I see people with dogs that have very little hope of improving, although it is not always the dog as the family has to be prepared to work for it. Usually by the third or fourth week we should start to see steps forward.

Nothing excites me more than seeing an older worried dog learn how to play and the best reward is when you see the enthusiasm the family gets for their dog developing new abilities.

[dee lee]

In answer to your question : Many factors have to be taken into consideration however I am always happy to give dogs lots of opportunities to adjust. I don't expect instant acceptance but I do want to see a dog who is willing to consider different options. There are the rare case where I see people with dogs that have very little hope of improving, although it is not always the dog as the family has to be prepared to work for it. Usually by the third or fourth week we should start to see steps forward.

What do you do if you find that this is not the case? ie that the dog does not improve or shows no sign of considering other options?

[Cosmolo]

Just wanted to add that one of the difficulties is that sometimes people think they want a dog with some issues and that they know whats involved in the training/ rehab but they don't or the dog is more 'serious' than they anticipated. Then you have the very difficult situation of a person who now loves the dog, but really can't deal with the rehab required- some make it, some don't

[alpha bet]

In answer to your question : Many factors have to be taken into consideration however I am always happy to give dogs lots of opportunities to adjust. I don't expect instant acceptance but I do want to see a dog who is willing to consider different options. There are the rare case where I see people with dogs that have very little hope of improving, although it is not always the dog as the family has to be prepared to work for it. Usually by the third or fourth week we should start to see steps forward.

What do you do if you find that this is not the case? ie that the dog does not improve or shows no sign of considering other options?

Sometimes it can mean you may have to look at ways to manage (live) with the situation. This is a very individual thing as it runs case to case. For some people it is a case of building a pen to have a place where they can leave the dog safely when not supervised. For some it may mean rehoming with people who can deal with the issues. In some extreme cases it may mean putting a dog down.

One thing that needs to be remembered is that often there is confusion as to what is aggression and what is social conflict..... If unsure you need to consult with someone with experience in this field.

I have become more and more convinced that developing good social skills for dogs is crucial for the development of good family pets - even to the point that I am attending a seminar in the USA in March. One of the key speakers is Sue Sternberg who has worked for decades on the rehoming assessments. Should make some interesting discussions....

Edited February 3, 2010 by alpha bet

[Cosmolo]

Yes Sue Sternberg certainly has some 'interesting' ideas. Have you looked at her assessment before alpha bet?

[alpha bet]

Have seen bits and pieces of the video, but nothing like having first hand chat.