Traumatised

[Got Spots]

I was walking the whippies b/w showers this arvo and noted a dog training session in the local park so I walked around for a sticky beak, sorry I did.

Their where 4 dogs - 3 labs and 1 retriever

The "trainers" idea of teaching a dog to heel was to seriously yank on the check chain. The poor retriever wasn't really doing anything wrong just having a good look around. There was no warning regarding the correction just a serious whole body yank - the noise that eminated from those yanks gave me goose bumps.

I feel sorry for the other dog owners who are being taught this method of training.

I am glad that I have ended up through trial and error doing some positive training mainly clicker - now I use a balance of training in drive,TOT and loose leash walking from Steve at K9 - this is working nicely for me at present

On the up side my evil whippies where walking on loose leads nicely

[Nekhbet]

I remember the old yank and crank method

still being done down here too .. makes you want to put that around the trainers neck and give it a good yank. Some dogs need a correction, but that method just smacks of abuse

[angelsun]

I rolled my eyes when I saw the subject title and then read the actual post....please....there are many out there that use a pop/correction and the fact you stated there was no warning when the correction was given isn't a horrible and as you imply, "traumatizing' incident!

Until you've worked with labs/retrievers you can't truly comment...this may have in your opinion been too rough of a method for you and your breed but in fact, that's how you should have stated it instead of automatically assuming that the owners were abusing the dogs and that anyone that DOES a correction with a check chain is barbaric and cruel.

Glad you enjoy the method of training you do and you are entitled to that method for your breed, but don't condemn other actions until you know the full story of why they are being used and what results have already resulted because of their use.

I used clicker training before it was fashionable to do so..people thought I was nuts...I still use some of the methods depending on the dogs but I also use check chains and have to occasionally give a good sharp correction. I used pinch collars which I know are far less harmful on a neck than a check chain but like so many things now, seeing something that disagrees with someone is not considered cruel and inhumane even if they know nothing about the method or tool.

Flame away....I've been training a LONG time and never have I abused a dog or caused harm to one.

[huski]

There is a difference between giving a correction IMO and the old yank and crank method that is a total misuse of the tool. There's a pop on the collar to correct the dog and then there is yanking it with as much force as possible and the two are poles apart.

Edited January 31, 2010 by huski

[JulesP]

I would actually prefer to see a couple of really good corrections than heaps of little pops. You do a correction right and you only have to do it once or twice.

[megan_]

The way I read this post is that the "pop" wasn't being used as a correction - but rather as a way to physically pull the dog around to teach it where to go. My understanding of correction collars is that you train the dog first and then correct them if they do something wrong once they understand what is required of them. You don't use punishment to actually train the maneouver (sp, but too darn lazy this morning).

[huski]

I would actually prefer to see a couple of really good corrections than heaps of little pops. You do a correction right and you only have to do it once or twice.

I think it depends on the tool you are using and how you are using it.

And regardless, there are still wrong ways to use a tool, and correcting a dog so hard that you (for example) lift their feet off the ground and cause them to cry out or yelp is wrong IMO.

[Nekhbet]

angelsun there was (well is) a really poor way of using the check chain here which when I saw it mortified me. You walk along, then if the dog veers away from you lean down and give the biggest correction you possibly can usually ripping dogs off their feet or yanking their necks severely. Taught them nothing but to live in fear of a massive random correction. I saw it once and one poor dog flew sideways into the owners leg who then issued him another

I love check chains, but to say all dogs need to be ripped off the ground just to heel is cruelty IMO. Also the method didnt employ the owner getting the attention from the dog or rewarding for good behavior. It was nothing or YANK *ugh*

[MonElite]

And I think it all depends on the dog. Some will withstand 50 huge yanks and will not be bothered, and another will shut down after a small pop.

[corvus]

This is more or less how I was taught to teach heel to my corgi ten years ago. Not quite that severe. The only thing it succeeded in doing was teaching her to walk as far away from me as possible.

Random punishments an animal has no control over are absolutely the best way to cause long term stress to an animal short of depriving them of their mother when they're babies. There have been studies on it.

[dee lee]

And I think it all depends on the dog. Some will withstand 50 huge yanks and will not be bothered, and another will shut down after a small pop.

I agree, when I had my staffy x, I had to be really tough on her before she would heed a correction. She had a neck tough as a rhino! The (short and hard) corrections were necessary and not extreme for her.

It is only now with my new dog, Honey (a GR) that I can truly appreciate the HUGE range of sensitivity in individual dogs/breeds- I do not need to correct her at all, I can train her using predominantly positive methods. It is not me, it is the different dogs.

My current experience has only made me feel more comfortable and justified in the way I had to train my staffy x- which, to someone who did not know us, may have appeared rather harsh.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: when talking to those that are in favour of high correction levels, I always find that when high level corrections are being used, reducing the distraction levels proves better than trying to raise correction levels.

I agree that some dogs can "take" a high level correction, that though didn't mean they "needed" a high level correction.

I encourage new trainers to stop & consider the distractions around the dog & its level of training before ramping up the correction level / intensity.

Edited February 2, 2010 by K9 Force

[Got Spots]

Thanks Steve

That is exactly what was happening - the golden was just so distracted with other dogs and wasn't/couldn't focus, I just don't think it was fair with no warning of what was about to be inflicted.

I don't disagree with corrections just the force that was used unnecessarily in this case - he was so over stimulated he and the trainer had no hope

I am not averse to repremanding my 2 if they step out of line esp when a bush turkey or water dragon is involved, however, I tell them to leave it first and give them a second to adjust then the get a pop to remind them

This has taken months from screaming and jumping along like a kangaroo to get to the "prey" - most embarassing

Edited February 1, 2010 by Neats

[corvus]

Bugger it.

Edited February 2, 2010 by corvus

[Got Spots]

?????

[DogNerd]

So there are mixed feelings on this sort of training? I was just wondering, and I don't mean to ruin this thread if I should post this as a new thread or somewhere else please tell me, but I recently had a consultation with a trainer because my dog is aggressive, aggressive to some dogs and aggressive when grooming.

This trainer said to pull the lead to correct her... They said to start off with not allowing her on the beds, couches and up high. They said to pull her off with the lead if she jumped on the couch... They did an example of this. This made me feel very uncomfortable, but the trainer said it wouldn't hurt, and that my dog wouldn't choke. I don't really know what to think about it, as obviously I'm not a trainer and we've never had problems with my other dog (Who has done preschool and another obedience course and we haven't had any issues with) and I don't know whether this is normal, all I know is that it made me feel uncomfortable and I didn't like doing that to my dog. But if the dog is aggressive (What I described my dog as being) then is this what is used? I'm determined to get myself and my dog sorted out, because I know it is my fault. I'm just really stumped on this.

[huski]

Pippin, who was the trainer? You can PM me if you prefer.

There are many different training methods and what works well for one dog will not work well for another, but I would never use a trainer whose methods I was uncomfortable with. A good trainer will make you feel confident about the methods you are using.

[spottychick]

Maybe the trainer was suggesting you use the lead rather than try and grab or push the dog off - for safety and so that it's not an aggressive action. I certainly wouldn't pull the dog down roughly or yell etc at the same time - and would praise her when she's on the floor. But I agree, if you don't feel comfortable about it there's something wrong with the trainer's instructions.

[DogNerd]

It was used to set boundaries as well, like we had to set the doors as boundaries, she couldn't go through them. So we had to pull her back each time she went to walk through a door. The couch thing was that if we picked her up and put her off it wouldn't be as effective or would come across as praise because of the handling. It certainly worked, as we tried it for a week, but my dogs behaviour just didn't seem the same, she didn't seem as happy. Would that just be her adjusting to this? Maybe I'm being over sensitive about it?

[bedazzledx2]

Have a look at this site (you may have to register which will get you lots more excellent information) http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2297 Rather than using strong arm stuff I would be putting my efforts into being a better teacher for my dog. Much easier and better for the relationship in the long term than all this boundary stuff and doorways OMG! (that usually goes along with the human eats first and other such nonsence) I allow my dog on the couch (and the bed) on my terms but if you don't want him on the furniture that's fine too. If your dog is displaying signs of aggression, particularly if you ask him to get off the couch/bed, then that is whole nuther ball of wax and needs careful addressing with a good behaviourist.

It was used to set boundaries as well, like we had to set the doors as boundaries, she couldn't go through them. So we had to pull her back each time she went to walk through a door. The couch thing was that if we picked her up and put her off it wouldn't be as effective or would come across as praise because of the handling. It certainly worked, as we tried it for a week, but my dogs behaviour just didn't seem the same, she didn't seem as happy. Would that just be her adjusting to this? Maybe I'm being over sensitive about it?