Thoughts On Campaigning Show Dogs...

[Ceilidh]

angelsun: My point EXACTLY..

Ceilidh: I too am training but i will sure as shit be doing my own thing,

But if, by doing your own thing, you actually put up one of the 'big winners' are you going to be seen as following the sheep? I too will be doing my own thing but it sounds like, as I said before, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[peaceful]

Most of the big winners are actually damn good dogs and totally deserve their wins.

If they had nothing to advertise they wouldn't.

I always hope that the judges wherever they are from just judge the dogs as they see them on the day and dont worry about looking at ads etc until after they have judged and if they happened to put up a regular winner well they probably found a deserving dog!

[Bullbreedlover]

Interestingly, the AKC have just introduced a new campaign whereby if you pay (I think it is) $495, your dog can be included in an email of the top 20 dogs which is sent to ALL AKC judges weekly.

I know that for some judges, advertising doesn't matter a bit, they'll still judge the dogs on the day no matter who is handling them.

But I am also aware of a situation where a judge interstate recently got "lost" in her group the first day, went back to the motel and spent some time Googling that night and "found" the top-winning dogs/handlers on the second day of her appointment. And this came to me from one of the judges on her panel that weekend.

Ethical, smart or otherwise? You be the judge!

OMG

[rajacadoo]

Interestingly, the AKC have just introduced a new campaign whereby if you pay (I think it is) $495, your dog can be included in an email of the top 20 dogs which is sent to ALL AKC judges weekly.

I know that for some judges, advertising doesn't matter a bit, they'll still judge the dogs on the day no matter who is handling them.

But I am also aware of a situation where a judge interstate recently got "lost" in her group the first day, went back to the motel and spent some time Googling that night and "found" the top-winning dogs/handlers on the second day of her appointment. And this came to me from one of the judges on her panel that weekend.

Ethical, smart or otherwise? You be the judge! ;)

OMG

Sadly Ellz, I think I know who you are talking about

Im still shaking my head

[TessnSean]

Discouraging reading for someone who started showing dogs 12 months ago.

[Diva]

Interestingly, the AKC have just introduced a new campaign whereby if you pay (I think it is) $495, your dog can be included in an email of the top 20 dogs which is sent to ALL AKC judges weekly.

[WreckitWhippet]

Discouraging reading for someone who started showing dogs 12 months ago.

I wouldn't be too worried about it, there are plenty of us little fish out there, who are still competitive, without the spending big $$$$ or dragging dogs around the country 52 weeks a year.

Enjoy your dog and enjoy your time in the ring.

[fbc]

Discouraging reading for someone who started showing dogs 12 months ago.

I wouldn't be too worried about it, there are plenty of us little fish out there, who are still competitive, without the spending big $$$$ or dragging dogs around the country 52 weeks a year.

Enjoy your dog and enjoy your time in the ring.

Good Call there SBT

Edited January 31, 2010 by fbc

[weisnjac]

angelsun: My point EXACTLY..

Ceilidh: I too am training but i will sure as shit be doing my own thing,

But if, by doing your own thing, you actually put up one of the 'big winners' are you going to be seen as following the sheep? I too will be doing my own thing but it sounds like, as I said before, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I'm thinking of going for my licence too and I have been thinking the exact same things.

If you put up a big winning dog and people think you are just following the sheep, too bad! You put up what you think deserves to be put up and be happy with your decisions Thats what I keep telling myself anyway

[angelsophie]

Discouraging reading for someone who started showing dogs 12 months ago.

I wouldn't be too worried about it, there are plenty of us little fish out there, who are still competitive, without the spending big $$$$ or dragging dogs around the country 52 weeks a year.

Enjoy your dog and enjoy your time in the ring.

From a newbie point of view its nice to read a comment like this from an experienced showie.

We have been doing it only 6 months and only have one boy in the ring show one or two weekends a month locally. His grooming stuff and setting everything up comes first. Quite frankly I'd rather save to buy a good quality bitch than a half page ad

Edited January 31, 2010 by angelsophie

[SpikesPuppy]

True story: I had a dog I imported to Canada from here in my breed..he was a different colour than I had been seen showing with and although the dog was a fine specimen and in fact a grand champion here, I couldn't get a win on him no matter what I did....show after show I entered and nothing. Remember, in Canada if we are a single entry, we must win a placement in group to get the points we need for a title.

I decided to take out an ad in a major magazine and hopefully time it right so that it was in the hands of the judges prior to my next 'lot' of shows. Since I'd not had any wins in Canada to that point, I simply advertised his wins over here prior to getting to me. Had a nice photo taken of us and waited to see what happened.

The VERY first show I attended after I knew that the magazine was in the hands of the judges, I got put up to a group second win....wasn't long after that I won the group with the dog..within four weekends of showing, he had his title and only lost out on a group placement once.

There ARE dogs that win big with no advertising..I've seen it....and yes I hope that this country doesn't fall into the trap that Canada and the USA have when it comes to this sport, that the more money you have to toss behind a dog, the more you will win. (won't even get into the pro handler debate and I could as I used to be one) Anyway....in the end...you can't blame the exhibitor for promoting the dog they believe in...what I do have a problem with is that some judges are so heavily influenced by the ads that they fail to observe all the other outstanding dogs in the ring the day they are judging.

That is really disappointing I'm glad that your dog got the wins he deserved but it's awful to think that you had to 'tell' the judges how good he was and they couldn't (wouldn't??) see it for themselves.

Sometimes I wonder who the advertisements are aimed at?? I have been considering just taking out an ad for my guys- maybe for my new pup ;) just because I'm proud of them and it gives me warm fuzzies to see them in print :D but I guess most people do advertise to judges?? Don't see many stud adverts etc.

I also see alot of ads where, as someone else said, the dog is almost an afterthought and the advert is mostly the handler, often in a very memorable outfit or hairstyle etc. I have also spoken to judges who have said, honestly, in each group you have a 'failsafe' breed, ie: "If in doubt put up the....."

I think all judges should do their own thing but sometimes, I believe that there are other dogs that are just as, if not more correct than the big winners but they don't get noticed because a)the breed is not as exciting/flashy or b)the dog is not expertly handled. Or a judge may not be confident in putting up a less successful breed.

I do recall overhearing a judge talking to the exhibitor of the dog they gave Group to..... the dog they gave group to was actually NOT the dog they thought it was and the eventual winner had been brought along to bump up the points needed for the Grand :rofl:

On the whole though, I believe the majority of the dogs are honest otherwise I wouldn't waste my time. And advertising is okay but I admit, I stopped buying National Dog as I got sick of seeing the same dogs (and handlers!) every bloody month.

[Kissindra]

hang on a tic - what was that about newbies being ridiculed for travelling to rural shows at the end of the year?

I have quite happy plans to (when the time comes) use the end of school holidays to get out further than we usually could for shows. Perfect time of year for it with most people free of weekday commitments! I keep reading what wonderful atmospheres the rural shows have, and I must have read at least 4 editorials calling for showies to get out and support the more rural shows. Camping is great fun, I figure camping + dogs + new scenery + other dog people to meet = even better!

I wonder whose approval I need to avoid the dreaded ridicule? Such a bother none of this info came with my membership stuff! Ah well, I'll have a while to figure it out yet

[poocow]

Kiss I wouldn't worry! Just go and enjoy your dog!

I personally love going to country shows, the atmosphere is great and it's a fun weekend away with friends.

As I have a rare breed with one of the only bitches being consistently shown it doesn't matter where I show, odds are I'll get similar results/points no matter where I go.

[angelsun]

I agree that my story is sad and was VERY frustrating for me at the time. My main problem was half the judges had never seen the colour before and i swear many didn't realize the breed that was on the end of the lead because of it (he also had natural ears which was also not seen often in my breed at the time)

I will add (to those newbies out there that wonder why they got involved in this sport) that not all judges are crooked or influenced by this sort of thing..I am fortunte to be good friends with a number of all breed judges in Canada and we've had this discussion MANY times as they were mentoring me towards getting my license.

Yes it was assumed if they put up the most advertised dog, they were following the trend, but as mentioned here, it probably WAS the best dog out there that day..why shouldn't they put it up? Many of the complaints about having that top dog put up, came from new exhibitors (less than ten years) or others directly connected as in breed or group peers. That's nothing to do with being influenced by magazines, simply poor sportsmanship when others lose.

I have seen a lot of favouratism in judging...friends putting up friends etc...and i think I related here a long time ago of a show where at 8am we had all the winners picked right up to BIS based on the judges and who was here...and yes...it was friends putting up friends....lets just say as the decisions came down, you could hear a pin drop, and this wasn't normal in a crowd of showies that we were that tended to be very vocal and applaud a lot and cheer during General Specials.

There was at one point a big to-do about our local results being put on line (www.canuckdogs.com) at the end of the day or the next day and that judges in motel rooms may decide to surf and check what their collegues did so they didn't make any 'mistakes' the next day. After a lot of bantering it around..it was decided that results would be posted fully as they always had been because we knew that if the judges wanted to chat about who won what, they would do it over supper and a beer at the end of the day before they were taken to their rooms for the night...as I've said many times before..you can't legislate ethics....advertising your dog/kennel, posting wins online immediately following shows etc, I think will always be done and it's up to the judges out there to decide if they use that information or remember why they became a judge in the first place.

I'm very guilty of focusing so much on the dogs that I fail to see who's on the end of the lead and have been called 'rude' because I didn't chat up an exhibitor during the exam....

Judges can have it rough....yes, damned if you do, damned if you don't....but again, most of the bitching comes from folks that have lost and would never put the hard yards into attaining their license in the first place!

[pebbles]

When I got my first Champ Judging licence, first appointment was Interstate which was great - a totally new lot of dogs to Judge. My second appointment was in Melbourne and as it was the Group I had shown in for years I knew most of the dogs.

At that time there was a particular long coated dog doing the majority of BIG winning and like a lot of others had often thought there must be ones to beat him so I went into the ring sure I 'd find something to challenge this dog. Oh boy, he was gorgous and went BIG again! Even years later when I had lots more judging experience he was still one of the best of that breed I went over. Had a few say later that I followed the trend but that boy deserved his win.

[Kissindra]

Kiss I wouldn't worry! Just go and enjoy your dog!

I personally love going to country shows, the atmosphere is great and it's a fun weekend away with friends.

As I have a rare breed with one of the only bitches being consistently shown it doesn't matter where I show, odds are I'll get similar results/points no matter where I go.

Never fear, I was being decidedly toungue in cheek

I figure life is too short to worry about the peanut gallery in any of it's myriad forms I'll be having a grande time, win or lose!

[poodlefan]

As I see it you're damned either way. Do it and you'll be told you're courting judges. Don't and you'll be told your dog has no profile.

Believe in your dog, show it the the best of your ability and do what you think is best to promote it if that's what you want to do.

The rest is in the lap of the Gods (or judges )

[TessnSean]

I started at the very bottom in the horse world and am doing the same with my dogs. I bought my heart breed as a pet and was encouraged by her breeder to show her. 12 months later, I am waiting for her Australian Champion cert to arrive ;)

The interesting thing that I have found is that it is harder to win under judges from my own state. Not that we have never won but when an interstate or overseas judge is handing out the awards, my heart dog is rarely beaten. When you see the judge in the gazebo of the winning dog straight after their ring finishes, it is a bit difficult to keep faith that it was not about friends putting up friends. Us horse people were more cunning. We rang each other - lol

To be honest, I don't care either way. We have our weekends away, we camp, we meet new people and it keeps us away from the pokies Best of all, we have our little mates. The dogs we have ((yes, the number has grown) share the house and won't be going anywhere.

Would I have started down the path of dog showing if I had read this post 12 months ago? Probably. Not because of any prizes. Because I enjoy doing something more than just work, home, work.

[Miss B]

hang on a tic - what was that about newbies being ridiculed for travelling to rural shows at the end of the year?

I have quite happy plans to (when the time comes) use the end of school holidays to get out further than we usually could for shows. Perfect time of year for it with most people free of weekday commitments! I keep reading what wonderful atmospheres the rural shows have, and I must have read at least 4 editorials calling for showies to get out and support the more rural shows. Camping is great fun, I figure camping + dogs + new scenery + other dog people to meet = even better!

I wonder whose approval I need to avoid the dreaded ridicule? Such a bother none of this info came with my membership stuff! Ah well, I'll have a while to figure it out yet

Give me a country show any day of the week I love them. Great atmosphere, I have a blast camping, and it's great to get out of the house for the weekend and go somewhere new. I do my fair share of city shows too, but the most fun I have had showing has been at the country shows.

[BittyMooPeeb]

It feels like judges are too scared to put up a dog based on their own judgement. And I agree that judges put up whoever they know has been doing the most winning. It's a bit boring seeing the same dogs win BIG and BIS week in, week out. I always think that surely there must be other dogs who are just as good and just as close to their breed standard as the few that take out most of the wins.

When I see in advertisements claims like "35 BIS out of 50 shows" I think there must be something wrong with our judging system ....

See this type of statement makes me wonder why I want to be a judge. So what you are saying is that, when I am a judge, if I judge one of these top winning dogs and find it is an excellent example of the breed then I shouldn't put it up because I will be seen as following the fad? Isn't that just the same? Putting a dog down because I may be seen to be face judging? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do I really want to do all this study and hard work just to be thought of as corrupt?

I think it is pretty obvious which judges do their own thing as opposed to those who only ever pick the big winners or the known handlers. This doesn't mean that those who do their own thing wont pick big winners - of course they will - but in amongst the mix will also be the great dog with the 'nobody' handler, the great dog of an unpopular breed, etc. I doubt you would be labelled as corrupt if you do your own thing Ceilidh - a good, fair judge is easy to spot, and we need more of them, so please dont be put off doing your judges licence!!!

ETA: I should have said "And I agree that SOME judges put up whoever they know has been doing the most winning." I didnt mean to imply that all judges did this, however, like some other posters, I have seen this happen, so it does occur.

Edited February 1, 2010 by BittyMooPeeb