Thoughts On Campaigning Show Dogs...

[Missymoo]

ok I do my share of winning so this is not sour grapes..but I do believe all this emphasis on advertising etc is killing dog shows for the newbies...

It seems alot of the tme unless you have money to spend on advertising and campaigning your dog , no matter what kennel it came from or if it was just as good as the current leader that you would never do as well as somthing that was heavily advertised?

Advertising is becoming more and more important now..I am not sure its about the actual DOGs anymore??

I also heard from a reliable source that a judge was running late for the show as "they just had to check who was winning the pointscor so she wouldnt look silly and put somthing else up" Um, ..the person who told me couldnt even believe they admitted to even doing this! lol

Each to there own, feel free to have your say, no flaming please, its just my opinion ok?

[fbc]

As i posted in a previous thread it was mentioned to me that alot of people arnt entering our group anymore due to certain dogs winning predominantly.

I personally wouldnt be put off by this, no dog is unbeatable and it makes the time you do beat it even more memorable IMO.

Im only showing for the fun of it I also enter pointscores for the fun of it.

I must admit some of the dogs who are doing alot of wining lately are stunning dogs and well deserving of the wins, all groups included there :D

I would think in the long term that judges like the one you mentioned will attract low entries thus discouraging the show comitees from selecting them in the first place......well we can only hope :D

[Nevafollo]

I dont have a problem with people advertising the crap out of their dogs, hey if you got the money go for it.

But I think the bigger issue lies with the judges, dont put something up just because you saw in the latest mag that its doing well, just judge the dog as you see it on the day!

If a ajudges is worried about picking the wrong thing and looking silly they really shouldnt be judging full stop. They should have the "balls" to stand up and say this is who I'm choosing because its the best thing I've seen today!

[hollee]

ok I do my share of winning so this is not sour grapes..but I do believe all this emphasis on advertising etc is killing dog shows for the newbies...

It seems alot of the tme unless you have money to spend on advertising and campaigning your dog , no matter what kennel it came from or if it was just as good as the current leader that you would never do as well as somthing that was heavily advertised?

Advertising is becoming more and more important now..I am not sure its about the actual DOGs anymore??

I also heard from a reliable source that a judge was running late for the show as "they just had to check who was winning the pointscor so she wouldnt look silly and put somthing else up" Um, ..the person who told me couldnt even believe they admitted to even doing this! lol

Each to there own, feel free to have your say, no flaming please, its just my opinion ok?

I have to say I agree with all that you say which I think is pretty sad really and may I add that if you aren't on line then you are really on the outside!!!!

I know it's all about the dog etc.. but we don't live in a perfect world thats for sure and I think it helps lazy ones to look at the ads.What I really don't like is the ads where the owner makes sure that THEY are seen, sometimes its the dogs about 30% and the person in the ad about 70% !! Yes, I know the owners are proud etc. but I thought it was "about the dog"

I think it's a bit sad when "marketing" becomes important.

That's only my opinion anyway.

[Blakbelgian]

Its supposed to be about the dog.

How many times do you lok at a paid advertisement and the photo of the dog is mediocre (in your mind) and the handler stands out

more?

Or the handler takes up more space in the photo than the dog?

If your advertising THE DOG then how about NOT including the handler in the pic as well?

Yes I acknowledge all the time & effort the handler puts in, BUT it is supposed to be a brag about the dog!

BB

[BittyMooPeeb]

It feels like judges are too scared to put up a dog based on their own judgement. And I agree that judges put up whoever they know has been doing the most winning. It's a bit boring seeing the same dogs win BIG and BIS week in, week out. I always think that surely there must be other dogs who are just as good and just as close to their breed standard as the few that take out most of the wins.

When I see in advertisements claims like "35 BIS out of 50 shows" I think there must be something wrong with our judging system ....

[fifi]

I do hope we don't end up like some countries where pro handlers and mega advertising bucks often edge out the owner/handlers.

A friend in one country said it cost one person in her breed thousands in advertising to maintain their position in their breed.

But I still believe that a good owner / handler with a very good dog has a chance, but it does take some doing if you are not a 'face'. I've recently seen some lovely newbies with nice dogs, take out some great fringies :-)

fifi

[WreckitWhippet]

If I had the $$$ I'd do a hell of a lot more celebrating and promotion of mine. But I don't, so the $ that are do have are spent in the ring.

[Missymoo]

I do hope we don't end up like some countries where pro handlers and mega advertising bucks often edge out the owner/handlers.

A friend in one country said it cost one person in her breed thousands in advertising to maintain their position in their breed.

But I still believe that a good owner / handler with a very good dog has a chance, but it does take some doing if you are not a 'face'. I've recently seen some lovely newbies with nice dogs, take out some great fringies :-)

fifi

This is what I was getting at fifi, as the advertising has sprung up massivly over the last couple of years...sure Id advertise too if I hd spare $ to throw around, but Id rather spend it on importing, breeding and showing

[Weizone]

I do hope we don't end up like some countries where pro handlers and mega advertising bucks often edge out the owner/handlers.

A friend in one country said it cost one person in her breed thousands in advertising to maintain their position in their breed.

But I still believe that a good owner / handler with a very good dog has a chance, but it does take some doing if you are not a 'face'. I've recently seen some lovely newbies with nice dogs, take out some great fringies :-)

fifi

This is what I was getting at fifi, as the advertising has sprung up massivly over the last couple of years...sure Id advertise too if I hd spare $ to throw around, but Id rather spend it on importing, breeding and showing

what one must remember it doesn't necessarily have to be in magazines, the simple tool of the internet is the most common way of promotion. DOL, Facebook, Show dogs.com you can promote free of charge all most.

[whippets]

I do hope we don't end up like some countries where pro handlers and mega advertising bucks often edge out the owner/handlers.

A friend in one country said it cost one person in her breed thousands in advertising to maintain their position in their breed.

But I still believe that a good owner / handler with a very good dog has a chance, but it does take some doing if you are not a 'face'. I've recently seen some lovely newbies with nice dogs, take out some great fringies :-)

fifi

This is what I was getting at fifi, as the advertising has sprung up massivly over the last couple of years...sure Id advertise too if I hd spare $ to throw around, but Id rather spend it on importing, breeding and showing

This isn't new. It's always been like this with advertising. It's just that with internet technology there are "newer" avenues to advertise the showdogs.

There will always be people who can drag a dead rat around the ring and still get BOB. Nothing is different there.

With a HUGE absence from the show ring (like 15 yrs) then returning with another breed I have noticed one big change and that is the presentation of the handlers themselves. I think this is a good thing. I have noticed that people spend alot more time presenting themselves and their dogs.

Remember the days when parachute material tracksuit outfits where all the rage for handling?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I think form guide judging is a problem but it's not just an advertising thing. In fact, I think a lot of money gets wasted on ads.

I agree about the pointscores tho'. I've been told that because I don't enter pointscores I put myself at a disadvantage because my dogs won't be "recognisable" as competitive. The thing is, what about the exhibitors that were mentioned in the other thread who enter and scratch 17 dogs to boost their pointscore? I've also seen some pretty big guns travel many more hours than your average newbie is prepared to travel to attend teeny tiny rural shows towards the end of the year to battle it out for the pointscore. If a newbie did that to score a 6 point challenge they'd be ridiculed. Pointscores are clearly fun and rewarding for people who do them but turning yourself inside out to win one and using them as a form guide is not in the best interests of the sport. There are some very lovely dogs in my breed who are shown sparingly and are not entered in the pointscore. I'd expect a good judge to find them in a line up.

Speaking as a show secretary, nothing pulls in the entries like a judge that is known for "doing their own thing". If people want to be part of fixing things I think a good place to start is to volunteer on a club committee and be part of appointing judges that are a) competent, b) honest and c) don't give a rodent's rear end about whether people think they are "silly". Especially if the peanut gallery is largely made up of those who are a little more corrupt and a little less competent . Sometimes being part of the solution means speaking against suggestions people make and risking being unpopular. If you think a system you are participating in is corrupt, you need to be part of fixing it.

[Darkrai]

I think its true some dogs are over advertised, open a mag there it is and so on

[yarracully]

I think form guide judging is a problem but it's not just an advertising thing. In fact, I think a lot of money gets wasted on ads.

I agree about the pointscores tho'. I've been told that because I don't enter pointscores I put myself at a disadvantage because my dogs won't be "recognisable" as competitive. The thing is, what about the exhibitors that were mentioned in the other thread who enter and scratch 17 dogs to boost their pointscore? I've also seen some pretty big guns travel many more hours than your average newbie is prepared to travel to attend teeny tiny rural shows towards the end of the year to battle it out for the pointscore. If a newbie did that to score a 6 point challenge they'd be ridiculed. Pointscores are clearly fun and rewarding for people who do them but turning yourself inside out to win one and using them as a form guide is not in the best interests of the sport. There are some very lovely dogs in my breed who are shown sparingly and are not entered in the pointscore. I'd expect a good judge to find them in a line up.

Speaking as a show secretary, nothing pulls in the entries like a judge that is known for "doing their own thing". If people want to be part of fixing things I think a good place to start is to volunteer on a club committee and be part of appointing judges that are a) competent, b) honest and c) don't give a rodent's rear end about whether people think they are "silly". Especially if the peanut gallery is largely made up of those who are a little more corrupt and a little less competent . Sometimes being part of the solution means speaking against suggestions people make and risking being unpopular. If you think a system you are participating in is corrupt, you need to be part of fixing it.

While I would agree with what you are saying SSM there becomes a problem for show secretaries/committees in how do they find out if judge X "does their own thing"? if you ask exhibitors that have been under the particular judge you can't always be sure of an honest answer. If you go to a forum such as this and ask a question people then start off about judge bashing because of the opinions that return.

If you get a judge for a show and then find out they are not the type required until after then its too late and your event may end up with a lessor reputation because of it. Think about the judge at Royal Adelaide last year, even though what happened was out of the hands of the organisers- their shows reputation copped a bit of a hammering because of it.

I do agree with what you have said above but I can see a problem in finding out before you contract the judge, and afterwrds may be too late.

[Poo-Fong]

Remember the days when parachute material tracksuit outfits where all the rage for handling? :D

OK, pretty OT but my very first show was in 1991 and I wore a lovely white, green and purple parasilk tracksuit (with matching Reeboks!!) to show my boy!! Oh, the memories!!! :p :p :) :)

[angelsun]

True story: I had a dog I imported to Canada from here in my breed..he was a different colour than I had been seen showing with and although the dog was a fine specimen and in fact a grand champion here, I couldn't get a win on him no matter what I did....show after show I entered and nothing. Remember, in Canada if we are a single entry, we must win a placement in group to get the points we need for a title.

I decided to take out an ad in a major magazine and hopefully time it right so that it was in the hands of the judges prior to my next 'lot' of shows. Since I'd not had any wins in Canada to that point, I simply advertised his wins over here prior to getting to me. Had a nice photo taken of us and waited to see what happened.

The VERY first show I attended after I knew that the magazine was in the hands of the judges, I got put up to a group second win....wasn't long after that I won the group with the dog..within four weekends of showing, he had his title and only lost out on a group placement once.

There ARE dogs that win big with no advertising..I've seen it....and yes I hope that this country doesn't fall into the trap that Canada and the USA have when it comes to this sport, that the more money you have to toss behind a dog, the more you will win. (won't even get into the pro handler debate and I could as I used to be one) Anyway....in the end...you can't blame the exhibitor for promoting the dog they believe in...what I do have a problem with is that some judges are so heavily influenced by the ads that they fail to observe all the other outstanding dogs in the ring the day they are judging.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

While I would agree with what you are saying SSM there becomes a problem for show secretaries/committees in how do they find out if judge X "does their own thing"? if you ask exhibitors that have been under the particular judge you can't always be sure of an honest answer. If you go to a forum such as this and ask a question people then start off about judge bashing because of the opinions that return.

If you get a judge for a show and then find out they are not the type required until after then its too late and your event may end up with a lessor reputation because of it. Think about the judge at Royal Adelaide last year, even though what happened was out of the hands of the organisers- their shows reputation copped a bit of a hammering because of it.

I do agree with what you have said above but I can see a problem in finding out before you contract the judge, and afterwrds may be too late.

I agree that it is far from an exact science, especially if you are new. However, I think you eventually develop multiple sources you can trust and putting all those perspectives together with your own experience you can get a fair picture. When you make an error of judgment (as everyone does) you just pick yourself up and learn from it. One thing anyone can do is avoid the really obvious "no go" stuff, I mean, I see repeat appointments with local judges with awful entries and wonder why on earth the committees do it.

I'd say more but our baby puppy who is having his first show today has just decided to take a bath in the water bowl. Gotta run!

[ellz]

Interestingly, the AKC have just introduced a new campaign whereby if you pay (I think it is) $495, your dog can be included in an email of the top 20 dogs which is sent to ALL AKC judges weekly.

I know that for some judges, advertising doesn't matter a bit, they'll still judge the dogs on the day no matter who is handling them.

But I am also aware of a situation where a judge interstate recently got "lost" in her group the first day, went back to the motel and spent some time Googling that night and "found" the top-winning dogs/handlers on the second day of her appointment. And this came to me from one of the judges on her panel that weekend.

Ethical, smart or otherwise? You be the judge!

[Ceilidh]

It feels like judges are too scared to put up a dog based on their own judgement. And I agree that judges put up whoever they know has been doing the most winning. It's a bit boring seeing the same dogs win BIG and BIS week in, week out. I always think that surely there must be other dogs who are just as good and just as close to their breed standard as the few that take out most of the wins.

When I see in advertisements claims like "35 BIS out of 50 shows" I think there must be something wrong with our judging system ....

See this type of statement makes me wonder why I want to be a judge. So what you are saying is that, when I am a judge, if I judge one of these top winning dogs and find it is an excellent example of the breed then I shouldn't put it up because I will be seen as following the fad? Isn't that just the same? Putting a dog down because I may be seen to be face judging? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do I really want to do all this study and hard work just to be thought of as corrupt?

[Missymoo]

angelsun: My point EXACTLY..

Ceilidh: I too am training but i will sure as shit be doing my own thing, I rarely check out pointscore before this year (as I have figured out that not doing it is causing me more harm then good, sigh) even then I just fill out my stuff and get on with other more important stuff, um like my life..LOL!