Rspca Discussion Paper On Puppy Farming

[Steve]

The RSPCA is asking for submissions. Instead of sitting on here bitching, why doesn't everyone write up a 'better idea' and send it off. If all the reg'd breeders did this and demonstrated how passionate they were about animal welfare BUT also why some of the proposed plans are not suitable, then PERHAPS the RSPCA might be willing to listen and help. This is everyone's chance to help stop puppy farming but also protect reg'd breeders.

I supoose that's one way of looking at whats going on here but rather than us sitting on here and bitching its more that we are simply using this forum to sort out and discuss what we think are the issues before we do write up our submissions.

Its is everyone's chance to help stop puppy farmers and also protect registered breeders however mostly everyone wouldnt know about that opportunity or the issues if we are all off writing our submissions without the opportunity to participate in these type of discussions.

'Better ideas" have more chance of being found,tested and written up if more people contribute to the thought process and the conversation so perhaps what you see as us sitting here bitching may just serve its purpose to enable us to do what we intend to do and offer realistic alternatives.

[Kirty]

I have no problem with that Steve, but if you read lilli's and jed's posts, they are saying they will not be involved.

[WoofnHoof]

I think that everyone who has commented here should make submissions to that effect, state why you don't want street addresses and the other things and why, but also state which sections you would be willing to support and why - I think that would be the best plan because there are a lot of areas in this that have plenty of merit and plenty of teeth when it comes to tackling puppy farms and its important to point out the parts that we do want implemented.

I think there should be an option for people to either join this new licensing system or remain with their current governing bodies so long as they have acceptable and enforceable codes of practice, that way people don't have to pay mulitple licensing fees and they are still subject to standards, if they get kicked out of their CCs or other registries then they are forced to join the government one. It would be a good opportunity for the registries to come together and work towards unity and also ensure that they are a part of any process involving dog breeding, far better to be part of the machine than trying to work on it from the outside.

Personally I don't think it matters if you have to make puppy buyers sign various contracts, you do that when you buy a car and once everyone knows what the gist of it is no one sits there and reads all the fine print anyway, I haven't read the fine print on contracts for years just skim over it to get the gist of it. It's just there to protect both buyer and seller, it could work well for those breeders who offer health guarentees becuase you can state clearly what your guarentee does and does not cover, bit like warranties on cars. Not only that signing a contract can make people think a bit more carefully about their decision to purchase, more so than if they were just handing over a few hundred bucks at the market.

Just my thoughts at this stage

[SpikesPuppy]

I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. It's unfortunate that there will be dogs suffering but as usual, these proposed laws will only affect the hobby breeders and responsible/ethical ones who cannot afford to pay more and more exhorbitant fees each year just to breed a few pups.

I honestly don't see puppy farms ever being eradicated unless the public stops buying from them. In fact these laws will only make them STRONGER because THEY HAVE THE MONEY!!! We, as responsible, ethical breeders need to step up our promotion of our beloved pure breeds and keep pushing the fact that our puppies are better. It's the only way we will win.

[Steve]

I think there should be an option for people to either join this new licensing system or remain with their current governing bodies so long as they have acceptable and enforceable codes of practice, that way people don't have to pay mulitple licensing fees and they are still subject to standards, if they get kicked out of their CCs or other registries then they are forced to join the government one. It would be a good opportunity for the registries to come together and work towards unity and also ensure that they are a part of any process involving dog breeding, far better to be part of the machine than trying to work on it from the outside.

But what no one seems to hear is that the states CCs codes are less than the current ones which everyone in every state have to comply with. Every state has POCTAA laws and companaion animal laws already - The only purpose a licence will serve is that it will make it easier to track the people who have a licence but those who will have a licence already are the ones complying with all the laws anyway.Those who are not wont get a licence and the fact that a licence is a way that the RSPCA or anyone else can locate them will make it more likely that those most needing to be controlled will scoff at the laws anyway.

If they are a big commercial concern they have to have an ABN they have to have council approvals for development applications and environmental impact issues assessed etc and everyone already knows where they are.Its the ones that do it all illegally which will still do it all illegally and with more regs on checks and managemnet will do it even more hidden than they do now.

Its the people who are doing it right now who will pay the fees and introduce things they know are often against the welfare of themselves and their dogs because its made law and dogs will still suffer.

[Steve]

I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. It's unfortunate that there will be dogs suffering but as usual, these proposed laws will only affect the hobby breeders and responsible/ethical ones who cannot afford to pay more and more exhorbitant fees each year just to breed a few pups.

I honestly don't see puppy farms ever being eradicated unless the public stops buying from them. In fact these laws will only make them STRONGER because THEY HAVE THE MONEY!!! We, as responsible, ethical breeders need to step up our promotion of our beloved pure breeds and keep pushing the fact that our puppies are better. It's the only way we will win.

[Christina]

I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. It's unfortunate that there will be dogs suffering but as usual, these proposed laws will only affect the hobby breeders and responsible/ethical ones who cannot afford to pay more and more exhorbitant fees each year just to breed a few pups.

I honestly don't see puppy farms ever being eradicated unless the public stops buying from them. In fact these laws will only make them STRONGER because THEY HAVE THE MONEY!!! We, as responsible, ethical breeders need to step up our promotion of our beloved pure breeds and keep pushing the fact that our puppies are better. It's the only way we will win.

As a dog breeder one would hope you would care about the welfare of all dogs, not just your own.

As an individual I feel extremely powerless about doing much of any significance re general dog welfare but denial of what goes on is not right either.

Do remember that, as you are passionate about your own purebred dogs, unless you personally see that every pup & dog that ever leaves your hands is desexed you can not know or control where they end up for their whole lives.

It may be 1 of your dogs that is the next Leo, gets grabbed by the puppy farmer if the owner dies & family just sell it on or gives away. It may be 1 of your dogs that ends up in a hell hole overseas or in the hands of a registered breeder who does not do the right thing.

Totally agree with the last sentance of your post but it is selfish to say the rest.

Wrong/bad things happen in the whole world because people turn a blind eye.

[schnauzer]

I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. It's unfortunate that there will be dogs suffering but as usual, these proposed laws will only affect the hobby breeders and responsible/ethical ones who cannot afford to pay more and more exhorbitant fees each year just to breed a few pups.

I honestly don't see puppy farms ever being eradicated unless the public stops buying from them. In fact these laws will only make them STRONGER because THEY HAVE THE MONEY!!! We, as responsible, ethical breeders need to step up our promotion of our beloved pure breeds and keep pushing the fact that our puppies are better. It's the only way we will win.

Forget about them?..............................

Have you ever met a puppy farm dog? Are you aware of the suffering they endure?

I have rescued them - in fact we rehomed the 6 schnauzers from Case 1.

These dogs did not deserve the life and conditions they were kept in. All dogs were very successfuly rehomed and now are with owners who adore them.

With statements like this, it is no wonder breeders get bad names.

[Steve]

Christina someone I was speaking with used this example I liked it so Ill pinch it.

If you had a problem with skateboarders knocking over old ladies on the footpath - it was costing the community in emergency care and generally making society worse - would you come up with a skateboarder licensing scheme? Or would you just make it illegal to ride on the footpath? One approach targets all skateboarders good or bad, costs a bucketload to enforce and administer... and the other just makes it easier to bust those people who don't play by the rules and not every skate boarder has to pay for what a small minority of skateborders do.

The MDBA has an accreditation process but the only reason it works is because its opt in and there is advantage for the people who are accredited as they are promoted over those who are not by our organisation.

There a a hell of a lot of chooks which are kept in battery farms and they have an opt in accredition type thing for eggs how do you think what the paper is going after would work if everyone who had laying hens suddenly needed a licence?

Because there is no difference the same people would still cause chooks to suffer just as the same people will still cause dogs to suffer.

[Natsu chan]

This whole thing just gives me a headache. I really don't think it's a practical solution but I suspect it won't matter the RSPCA seems to have registered dog breeders in their sights and that's that. I'm sure they know it will cause people to just stop breeding and as a bonus side affect you won't be allowed to own a show dog if you aren't a breeder either.

I don't think Spikes puppy mean that we shouldn't care about what happens to the dogs in puppy farms it's more the complete feeling of doing your best and still being treated like some sort of criminal. Registered breeders are feeling more and more cornered and frustrated and powerless and I think that's where Spikes puppy's comments are coming from. I don't even breed and I feel the same way!

[Steve]

I don't think Spikes puppy mean that we shouldn't care about what happens to the dogs in puppy farms it's more the complete feeling of doing your best and still being treated like some sort of criminal.

Thats how I saw it too

[SpikesPuppy]

This whole thing just gives me a headache. I really don't think it's a practical solution but I suspect it won't matter the RSPCA seems to have registered dog breeders in their sights and that's that. I'm sure they know it will cause people to just stop breeding and as a bonus side affect you won't be allowed to own a show dog if you aren't a breeder either.

I don't think Spikes puppy mean that we shouldn't care about what happens to the dogs in puppy farms it's more the complete feeling of doing your best and still being treated like some sort of criminal. Registered breeders are feeling more and more cornered and frustrated and powerless and I think that's where Spikes puppy's comments are coming from. I don't even breed and I feel the same way!

This is exactly what I meant, thank you for understanding Natsu chan & Steve.

I think what puppy farms do is abhorrent and I DO care about all dogs but I also see the reality of the issue- more regulation (ie: on puppy farms) equals more regulation on the little guys (responsible, ethical breeders) which equals more fees, more 'hygeine' recommendations = no more whelping the litter in your bedroom! Nope, it must be in a correctly constructed kennel xxx amount of metres from any residential premesis and you must follow xxx regulations on weaning, vaccinating, worming, feeding. No more old family remedies. You will be required to take the dog/puppy to a veterinary professional for every little cut or scrape it may get.

If you look at the situation realistically- the puppy farms DO have the time, money and facilities/space to comply with these proposed laws. I certainly do not and I don't know any registered breeder who does!! They also have the money to fight legislation against them- otherwise why has it taken so long for Clover Moore's bill to go through ??? Because the PIAA and co HAVE THE MONEY that we do not.

[Steve]

My feeling is that they are making the same mistake Clover Moore made.

It was noble for her to go out to stop live animals in pet shops but there was a lack of knowledge in the consultitive stage

and it branched out too far by trying to change advertising and a bunch of other stuff.

Trying to stop dogs suffering in puppy farms is also a worthy goal which most of us would like to help to bring about but by branching out and being un informed about the basics of the culture and the processes dealing with trade laws and export etc and natural justice and privacy issues its wasted an opportunity. Just as Clover should have consulted with various groups before anything got to white papers etc so too should that have happened in this case.

They didnt even know you cant take dogs as excess baggage on international flights.

[SpikesPuppy]

Do remember that, as you are passionate about your own purebred dogs, unless you personally see that every pup & dog that ever leaves your hands is desexed you can not know or control where they end up for their whole lives.

It may be 1 of your dogs that is the next Leo, gets grabbed by the puppy farmer if the owner dies & family just sell it on or gives away. It may be 1 of your dogs that ends up in a hell hole overseas or in the hands of a registered breeder who does not do the right thing.

This is a reality that I understand and accept. However I am offering a full refund on desexing for all my puppies which will hopefully encourage people to have it done (although I don't personally agree with the operation myself).

I have chosen to breed pups and I have chosen to sell them- I think I am doing a good job vetting people so far, all people and families who I believe will do the best by the dog. But it is still a risk, even selling to my best friend is no guarantee the dog will have a good, loving, forever home.

Forget about them?..............................

Have you ever met a puppy farm dog? Are you aware of the suffering they endure?

Yes & yes.

I have rescued them - in fact we rehomed the 6 schnauzers from Case 1.

These dogs did not deserve the life and conditions they were kept in. All dogs were very successfuly rehomed and now are with owners who adore them.

Do you believe that registered pedigree dogs deserve to be relegated to kennels to whelp instead of in their owner's bedrooms??

No dog deserves to be treated poorly, I am not saying puppy farms should be denied or swept under the rug but I believe that registered breeders need to focus more on promoting our 'product' for a lack of a better term than bagging out puppy farms. Puppy farmers are not passionate about the dogs they breed- they are passionate about the money they make. As soon as the demand for their product falls- they will move onto another get rich quick scheme.

If Joe Public knows that pure bred dogs from ethical breeders are really the way to go, he wont even think twice about buying that puppy in the pet shop.

Another thing, many puppy farm websites already state how they are 'better' than hobby breeders because of their status as Registered Businesses. This will only strengthen that.

[Christina]

Christina someone I was speaking with used this example I liked it so Ill pinch it.

If you had a problem with skateboarders knocking over old ladies on the footpath - it was costing the community in emergency care and generally making society worse - would you come up with a skateboarder licensing scheme? Or would you just make it illegal to ride on the footpath? One approach targets all skateboarders good or bad, costs a bucketload to enforce and administer... and the other just makes it easier to bust those people who don't play by the rules and not every skate boarder has to pay for what a small minority of skateborders do.

Sorry to seem arguementative, but I don't like the skateboard example. Skateboarders shouldn't be on the footpath or the road. Even the good ones can have an accident & are used by kids, no brakes. I would come up with Skateboards in designated suitable areas or on your own property. No license.

Which is probably a good way to go for dogs too. A license is useless, like dog reg & does not stop any of the problems.

Maybe the post was not intended the way it read. It does get frustrating, registered breeders do appear to be getting targeted & get some bad media publicity.

I see a future of no pedigree registered dog breeders & puppy farm mongrels the only dogs available.

The same number of dogs being dumped & euthanised each year, cruelty to animals continuing & the RSPCA never getting it right, & a whole heap of useless laws & rules put in, again.

Sound like the prophet of doom

Your post a while back on what makes a good dog owner was a good example of how people do not think of all the implications of asking for certain rules & their interpretations & how people do not agree.

[schnauzer]

Do remember that, as you are passionate about your own purebred dogs, unless you personally see that every pup & dog that ever leaves your hands is desexed you can not know or control where they end up for their whole lives.

It may be 1 of your dogs that is the next Leo, gets grabbed by the puppy farmer if the owner dies & family just sell it on or gives away. It may be 1 of your dogs that ends up in a hell hole overseas or in the hands of a registered breeder who does not do the right thing.

This is a reality that I understand and accept. However I am offering a full refund on desexing for all my puppies which will hopefully encourage people to have it done (although I don't personally agree with the operation myself).

I have chosen to breed pups and I have chosen to sell them- I think I am doing a good job vetting people so far, all people and families who I believe will do the best by the dog. But it is still a risk, even selling to my best friend is no guarantee the dog will have a good, loving, forever home.

Forget about them?..............................

Have you ever met a puppy farm dog? Are you aware of the suffering they endure?

Yes & yes.

I have rescued them - in fact we rehomed the 6 schnauzers from Case 1.

These dogs did not deserve the life and conditions they were kept in. All dogs were very successfuly rehomed and now are with owners who adore them.

Do you believe that registered pedigree dogs deserve to be relegated to kennels to whelp instead of in their owner's bedrooms??

No dog deserves to be treated poorly, I am not saying puppy farms should be denied or swept under the rug but I believe that registered breeders need to focus more on promoting our 'product' for a lack of a better term than bagging out puppy farms. Puppy farmers are not passionate about the dogs they breed- they are passionate about the money they make. As soon as the demand for their product falls- they will move onto another get rich quick scheme.

If Joe Public knows that pure bred dogs from ethical breeders are really the way to go, he wont even think twice about buying that puppy in the pet shop.

Another thing, many puppy farm websites already state how they are 'better' than hobby breeders because of their status as Registered Businesses. This will only strengthen that.

SpikesPuppy,

I am a member of a breed club - I believe in good ethical registered breeders.

My post objected to your phrasing "I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. "

Maybe you need to edit that post if that is not what you meant.

[SpikesPuppy]

Do remember that, as you are passionate about your own purebred dogs, unless you personally see that every pup & dog that ever leaves your hands is desexed you can not know or control where they end up for their whole lives.

It may be 1 of your dogs that is the next Leo, gets grabbed by the puppy farmer if the owner dies & family just sell it on or gives away. It may be 1 of your dogs that ends up in a hell hole overseas or in the hands of a registered breeder who does not do the right thing.

This is a reality that I understand and accept. However I am offering a full refund on desexing for all my puppies which will hopefully encourage people to have it done (although I don't personally agree with the operation myself).

I have chosen to breed pups and I have chosen to sell them- I think I am doing a good job vetting people so far, all people and families who I believe will do the best by the dog. But it is still a risk, even selling to my best friend is no guarantee the dog will have a good, loving, forever home.

Forget about them?..............................

Have you ever met a puppy farm dog? Are you aware of the suffering they endure?

Yes & yes.

I have rescued them - in fact we rehomed the 6 schnauzers from Case 1.

These dogs did not deserve the life and conditions they were kept in. All dogs were very successfuly rehomed and now are with owners who adore them.

Do you believe that registered pedigree dogs deserve to be relegated to kennels to whelp instead of in their owner's bedrooms??

No dog deserves to be treated poorly, I am not saying puppy farms should be denied or swept under the rug but I believe that registered breeders need to focus more on promoting our 'product' for a lack of a better term than bagging out puppy farms. Puppy farmers are not passionate about the dogs they breed- they are passionate about the money they make. As soon as the demand for their product falls- they will move onto another get rich quick scheme.

If Joe Public knows that pure bred dogs from ethical breeders are really the way to go, he wont even think twice about buying that puppy in the pet shop.

Another thing, many puppy farm websites already state how they are 'better' than hobby breeders because of their status as Registered Businesses. This will only strengthen that.

SpikesPuppy,

I am a member of a breed club - I believe in good ethical registered breeders.

My post objected to your phrasing "I'm going to be extremely selfish here and say screw the puppy farms. Forget about them. "

Maybe you need to edit that post if that is not what you meant.:D

But it IS, in essence, what I meant. I am going to stop ragging on puppy farms and telling people how nasty they are (think about telling someone not to push the red button... they are going to push it!!) and I am going to focus solely on promoting ethical registered breeders and their dogs. I have seen countless articles on the news, current affairs programs and in the papers etc with stories on puppy farms, and yes, they make me cry, and yes, they make most people cry. But clearly, they do not work in deterring people from buying pups from these establishments. Example- when I was working in a pet supply store, someone brought in their 'Spoodle' puppy. Conversation turned to the article on TT the evening prior about the Ballarat puppy farm and the owner was horrified etc and "So glad" that she got her precious from one of the good puppy farms - she saw pictures of the rolling meadows Turns out she got the pup from B. Creek

I truly believe there is already way too much regulation on dog ownership and breeding here in Victoria/Australia and too much money passing hands under the table for any more regulation to be of benefit to anyone- ethical breeders or the dogs. I am yet to see a single peice of legislation (passed or proposed) that actually benefits registered breeders and makes life difficult for large scale operations??

[gundoglover]

My feeling is that they are making the same mistake Clover Moore made.

It was noble for her to go out to stop live animals in pet shops but there was a lack of knowledge in the consultitive stage

and it branched out too far by trying to change advertising and a bunch of other stuff.

Trying to stop dogs suffering in puppy farms is also a worthy goal which most of us would like to help to bring about but by branching out and being un informed about the basics of the culture and the processes dealing with trade laws and export etc and natural justice and privacy issues its wasted an opportunity. Just as Clover should have consulted with various groups before anything got to white papers etc so too should that have happened in this case.

They didnt even know you cant take dogs as excess baggage on international flights.

I agree with this. However, in fairness, the RSPCA is asking for submissions. I assume that MDBA is planning to make a submission, and I agree with previous posters that it would be sensible for us all to do so on those matters where the RSPCA is misguided or ill-informed.

[tarope]

If the RSPCA were serious about stopping puppy mills, they could have done so but this isn't what they want.

The RSPCA want to control everything and everyone, they think they're the police. :D :D Instead of sitting around talking the RSPCA should be out preventing cruelty to animals, and not standing over people who do the right thing. :D

I'm sure they come out with stupid comments and statements from time to time just for the publicity,like people will be jailed if they don't walk their dog or BSL is a great idea as it will stop dog attacts. :D

Maybe the RSPCA should have SS stamped on their uniforms and do the goose step when they arrest and take you away for not making a donation.

[Steve]

Christina someone I was speaking with used this example I liked it so Ill pinch it.

If you had a problem with skateboarders knocking over old ladies on the footpath - it was costing the community in emergency care and generally making society worse - would you come up with a skateboarder licensing scheme? Or would you just make it illegal to ride on the footpath? One approach targets all skateboarders good or bad, costs a bucketload to enforce and administer... and the other just makes it easier to bust those people who don't play by the rules and not every skate boarder has to pay for what a small minority of skateborders do.

Sorry to seem arguementative, but I don't like the skateboard example. Skateboarders shouldn't be on the footpath or the road. Even the good ones can have an accident & are used by kids, no brakes. I would come up with Skateboards in designated suitable areas or on your own property. No license.

Which is probably a good way to go for dogs too. A license is useless, like dog reg & does not stop any of the problems.

Maybe the post was not intended the way it read. It does get frustrating, registered breeders do appear to be getting targeted & get some bad media publicity.

I see a future of no pedigree registered dog breeders & puppy farm mongrels the only dogs available.

The same number of dogs being dumped & euthanised each year, cruelty to animals continuing & the RSPCA never getting it right, & a whole heap of useless laws & rules put in, again.

Sound like the prophet of doom

Your post a while back on what makes a good dog owner was a good example of how people do not think of all the implications of asking for certain rules & their interpretations & how people do not agree.

Yep but when they talk about what they will do in order to stop puppy farming in effect those things will also stop us.

Just because they are frustrated because they dont get enough convictions isnt cause to take away everyone else's basic rights because they happen to breed a litter of dogs now and then. Take a look for example at asals case when they seized her dog and eventually gave it back and said sorry. But asal had to go through hell with supporting vet records etc and her dog was tested and prodded in order to make a case. If that had gotten to a court case and it almost did then asal would have needed mega bucks to defend herself and her dogs if they are demanding a bond before you get to say "hey thats my dog and I didnt do anything to make you take it away" What of Judy Gard's case - they took her dogs and then returned them 2 weeks later but they didnt have to they could have kept them and held them until Judy's court case.

They want to be able to sell your dogs before you are found guilty and before any court has heard the circumstances and laid a penalty and they want to be able to try to do that with no penalty for them if they get it wrong.They want you to pay up front in the form of a bond in case you loose. How many of us could afford to do that and not have to watch as our dogs are sold off ?

They might be just dogs to some puppy farmers but to most of us they are our family and our bloodlines are our life's work.

I dont want my breeding dogs living on concrete and all of that stuff assumes we have them 24 hours a day in confined areas which we will never clean properly. Sometimes I feed some foods off the ground too.In summer I throw them frozen barf balls to chase and chew on. The ground isnt contaminated with poo etc so why make me comply and assume my ground or floor is as contaminated and filthy as a puppy farmers might be. It makes no sense for one person to have to have concrete floors regardless of how big their dirt areas are because a filthy puppy farmer may not clean up or may keep a dog in a dirt pen and never clean it properly.