Halti And Harness

[Keshwar]

I need some suggestions.

Took the first class of the year last night (obedience club) and I have two problem handlers. This is at what is called Gold level - advanced companion.

I have a guy with a beautiful GSD. He has a halti on the GSD but has the lead attached to the flat collar. To me it looks like the halti is there purely for the handlers peace of mind - kinda like a security blanket. The dog doesn't need it. Any suggestions on how I get the Handler to remove it altogether?

The other person has a Toy poodle. Again this dog works beautifully and would do so on a flat collar. Last night he had the poodle in a harness and was using an extenda lead. After class I asked him if next week he could bring a standard lead. He has said he will. We'll see. Now how do I get rid of the harness? I suspect this is going to be harder.

Bear.

[4 Paws]

Could there be a neck problem with the poodle and thats why they have the harness?

Must admidt I am in the highest level at my obedience club and have also on ocassions had my gsd in a harness.I found it easier to have a small tab lead attached to it when doing off lead work should I need to grab it for any reason rather than trying to find it around a fluffy neck

Edited January 29, 2010 by 4 Paws

[poodlefan]

4Paws has highlighted the first step.. ask them why they've chosen to use that particular piece of equipment.

Sometimes exploding myths about halti's, harnesses etc can open people to the possiblity of trying other things. Beyond that its a matter of showing them there's a way to control a dog that doesn't rely on all these contraptions.

[Keshwar]

As far as I could see there didn't seem to be any health issues but I shall ask.

I guess the bigger part of the problem is these teams have come up through a number of levels and no-one seems to have tried to wean them off these "contraptions" - great word PF - before now.

[Serket]

Nevermind

Edited January 29, 2010 by Serket

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt call them advanced. Also put your foot down with equipment, if they need crutches to handle their dogs then see if they need to spend more time training.

was using an extenda lead.

you cannot control a dog on this and it is unsafe. Why are they allowed at the club at all?

[Tassie]

To deal with problems of handlers coming with inappropriate equipment, I have a bag with an assortment of old spare collars and leads, so that I can set them up with appropriate loan equipment for their first class.

ET say That should have been spare, not spar

Edited January 29, 2010 by Tassie

[poodlefan]

As far as I could see there didn't seem to be any health issues but I shall ask.

I guess the bigger part of the problem is these teams have come up through a number of levels and no-one seems to have tried to wean them off these "contraptions" - great word PF - before now.

You can use that to your advantage Bear. An appeal to ego rarely goes wrong. Now that they've demonstrated that they have decent training skills, they don't need to rely on such contraptions (it is a great word ) and can use their ability to get focus and work from their dogs instead. :D

Most of these "training aids" are substitutes for training, not aids at all.

Edited January 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[corvus]

Isn't a collar and leash also a "contraption"?

Erik is starting agility in March, and to be honest, I'm not looking forward to using flat collars. I hate them. I hate having my only point of contact with my dog at the neck, although I think the head is even worse. It's not that my dogs wouldn't work fine on a flat collar or that I need a harness for control. Most of the time I train off leash, and usually somewhere quite distacting like the dog park. But I've had a few accidents and near misses with my dogs that have made me quite distrustful of collars. I don't really understand why people have to be weaned off these things, unless they need to for competition.

[poodlefan]

Isn't a collar and leash also a "contraption"?

Erik is starting agility in March, and to be honest, I'm not looking forward to using flat collars. I hate them. I hate having my only point of contact with my dog at the neck, although I think the head is even worse. It's not that my dogs wouldn't work fine on a flat collar or that I need a harness for control. Most of the time I train off leash, and usually somewhere quite distacting like the dog park. But I've had a few accidents and near misses with my dogs that have made me quite distrustful of collars. I don't really understand why people have to be weaned off these things, unless they need to for competition.

Chiropractically speaking, any sort of head halter has the potential to do serious damage to a dog. Many body harnesses restrict shoulder movement and are entirely unsuitable for regular use. Car restraint ones are some of the worst. I've seen a dog with quite severe muscle wastage caused by being kept in flyball harness.

From an agility perspective (as you know) both are safety hazards. No agility club I know permits any training onlead so the collar serves as a restraint only when the dog is not working. Most competitors I know run their dogs with no collar at all.

If people are worried about collars coming off, a martingale is the logical choice. You'll rarely see a sighthound in anything else for onlead walking.

I've seen dogs get out of head halters and harnesses. In an offlead play situation, a harness represents a risk to other dogs. If you've never seen a dog catch it's jaw in one, count yourself lucky. I would not permit my dog to play with a dog wearing one.

Edited January 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[corvus]

Oh, I see. I always forget about all those other harnesses. We have Ruff Wear harnesses, that can't be escaped from and fit close with no straps around the shoulders for things to get caught on. We've lost the breakaway collars three or four times in play, but never had a worrying moment with the harnesses.

Clearly I have a warped view of harnesses. Even the accidents and near misses I've had with collars have been a bit weird and unrelated to escapes.

Surely people would listen to PF's above arguments? Folks get hysterical about potential injuries to their dogs. Especially preventable ones.

[Keshwar]

I wouldnt call them advanced. Also put your foot down with equipment, if they need crutches to handle their dogs then see if they need to spend more time training.

was using an extenda lead.

you cannot control a dog on this and it is unsafe. Why are they allowed at the club at all?

With one of these handlers putting my foot down is only likely to get his back up. I don't want to do that. I think it would be better to come up with good solid training reasons for not using the equipment. The annoying thing about the GSD guy is that he isn't actually using the halti, it is just on the dog for his reassurance.

I also don't think it is a training issue. Both dogs work really well. The problem is in the handlers heads. They think they need these contraptions. I need to convince them that they don't - and they really don't.

As far as I'm aware extenda leads aren't allowed in classes. This is why I'm amazed that this person has got to this level still using one. Personally I would have got him to use a standard lead/flat collar way back in puppy class. Unfortunately this is one of the problems with obedience clubs and volunteer instructors. The level of instruction and skills varies widely.

[Keshwar]

As far as I could see there didn't seem to be any health issues but I shall ask.

I guess the bigger part of the problem is these teams have come up through a number of levels and no-one seems to have tried to wean them off these "contraptions" - great word PF - before now.

You can use that to your advantage Bear. An appeal to ego rarely goes wrong. Now that they've demonstrated that they have decent training skills, they don't need to rely on such contraptions (it is a great word ) and can use their ability to get focus and work from their dogs instead.

Most of these "training aids" are substitutes for training, not aids at all.

Thanks PF. I think that is the way I will have to go. With one of these guy's it will be easy the other we'll see.

[Aidan]

The annoying thing about the GSD guy is that he isn't actually using the halti, it is just on the dog for his reassurance.

Is he a smaller guy, or does he have a back or shoulder injury? Check for a legitimate reason first. Where handlers can be overpowered or injured by a dog I will have them use a balance-leash attached to either a front-attaching harness or head halter and collar. The harness or halter isn't used, but it's there if the dog does decide to pull for whatever reason.

I would be very interested in any documented cases of injury to a dog caused by a head halter. I don't like to see them used unnecessarily, but I'm not aware of any documented risk associated with these devices. This surprises me, but this is what I know. Collars, on the other hand, have a long history of contributing to injury (through misadventure or misuse).

[poodlefan]

I would be very interested in any documented cases of injury to a dog caused by a head halter. I don't like to see them used unnecessarily, but I'm not aware of any documented risk associated with these devices. This surprises me, but this is what I know. Collars, on the other hand, have a long history of contributing to injury (through misadventure or misuse).

This issue saw a letter sent from one of Australia's leading chiropractic vets to the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, outlining the dangers and advocating the use of body harnesses like the sporn harness instead of head halters. The dangers are real.

Keshwar:

The annoying thing about the GSD guy is that he isn't actually using the halti, it is just on the dog for his reassurance.

I think that its presence may be suppressing his dog's drives. I'll bet his dog "behaves better" with it on - used or not.

What many dog handlers fail to comprehend is that a lot of dogs find head halters uncomfortable and unpleasant to wear. That aversive effect is constant and exists whether the dog is pulling or not. This drive suppressing effect is what stops the pulling in some dogs - that hardly aligns with the positive training philosophies of many dog trainers who advocate them. To be told "he'll get used to it" as your dog claws his face trying to get it off maes a joke of such philosophies.

They have their uses - but I shudder to see them fitted to small dogs for whom physical control is not an issue and to see the head angles adopted by many dogs to cope with them is really quite sad. To see one fitted to a flexi lead or in the hands of a rough handler is abuse IMO.

Edited January 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[Keshwar]

The annoying thing about the GSD guy is that he isn't actually using the halti, it is just on the dog for his reassurance.

Is he a smaller guy, or does he have a back or shoulder injury? Check for a legitimate reason first. Where handlers can be overpowered or injured by a dog I will have them use a balance-leash attached to either a front-attaching harness or head halter and collar. The harness or halter isn't used, but it's there if the dog does decide to pull for whatever reason.

Nope, large, healthy and very fit guy.

[poodlefan]

Keshwar, print this off and see if it makes any difference.

Link to Dr Bidstrup's article on the injury issues created by head halters

Thanks to Aidan for letting me know this is now available online.

Edited February 1, 2010 by poodlefan

[Keshwar]

Keshwar, print this off and see if it makes any difference.

Link to Dr Bidstrup's article on the injury issues created by head halters

Thanks to Aidan for letting me know this is now available online.

Thanks PF will do.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

To deal with problems of handlers coming with inappropriate equipment, I have a bag with an assortment of old spare collars and leads, so that I can set them up with appropriate loan equipment for their first class.

Ooh good idea. Consider it stolen