tlc Posted January 29, 2010 Author Share Posted January 29, 2010 Go for it, I did think about a poll, but I didn't have a clue where to start so I just asked the questions instead. We had a similar story at our club once but it didnt end the same, the dogs owner was man handling the dog as the dog was carrying on and all of a sudden he attacked a smaller dog out of the blue. The owner pulled him off the smaller dog after what seemed like forever and then started to smack the dog around the head for punishment for attacking the dog, we thought the dog was going to attack him. He was asked to take the dog out of the circle of other dogs till the trainer had a chance to go and talk to him which he did but he went and sat in the car and after about 5 minutes he just drove off. So that night our head trainer rang him and asked him why he left he said he felt bad about what happened and didnt want to stay, he was asked to come back and told that we would work with him to help the dog overcome the problems he had and help him to better deal with situations as they arose. But he chose not to come back. Thats all we are a whole can do I think in the end it was the owners choice, I always wonder what happened to him and hoped he was ok. I do also agree with consistancy and I think a lot of training is common sense and once explained to new people it is like a light bulb goes off and they say Ahhhhh yes I get it now. It is moments like that that make it worth while!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 OK, now I'll chuck something into the mix! The vast majority of obedience and agility clubs around Australia are non profit making CLUBS 'staffed' by volunteers. Many do 'in house' instructors courses...some better, some not. Those instructors then teach according to the philosophy and knowledge base of their club whether it be using positive methods or correctional methods or a combination of both. I think its unfair to berate any club for not being able to handle (for example) the aggressive 45kg dog that turns up with an owner who has allowed it to behave badly for the first 10 months of its life! To advise the owner to seek professional advice (if the club doesn't have a skilled instructor on hand) is the responsible thing to do. I do not see anything wrong with a club refusing to train dogs in a method that is outside their experience and knowledge. I do have an issue with some people who think that positive is permissive and its all just food bribing and feel good stuff. That just shows the lack of knowledge of the method. Go for it, I did think about a poll, but I didn't have a clue where to start so I just asked the questions instead.We had a similar story at our club once but it didnt end the same, the dogs owner was man handling the dog as the dog was carrying on and all of a sudden he attacked a smaller dog out of the blue. The owner pulled him off the smaller dog after what seemed like forever and then started to smack the dog around the head for punishment for attacking the dog, we thought the dog was going to attack him. He was asked to take the dog out of the circle of other dogs till the trainer had a chance to go and talk to him which he did but he went and sat in the car and after about 5 minutes he just drove off. So that night our head trainer rang him and asked him why he left he said he felt bad about what happened and didnt want to stay, he was asked to come back and told that we would work with him to help the dog overcome the problems he had and help him to better deal with situations as they arose. But he chose not to come back. Thats all we are a whole can do I think in the end it was the owners choice, I always wonder what happened to him and hoped he was ok. I do also agree with consistancy and I think a lot of training is common sense and once explained to new people it is like a light bulb goes off and they say Ahhhhh yes I get it now. It is moments like that that make it worth while!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 As I said before, I like to use a check chain when training my dogs. I also prefer to use praise rather than food for said training. My local all breeds training club has food reward as their preferred training method. I explained when I first started taking my Labrador pup there that I would prefer her not to expect food rewards when she did the right thing - however quite a few of the trainers would still give her treats from their bum bags - even after my repeated requests for them not to. The one 100% thing that my girl learned from that was that bum bags have food in them... grrr! This got so bad at one stage that we were asked to not come back until her fascination for bum bags and their contents was under control. My older Rottie X girl was not so fussed on the group training idea, and refused all attempts at food treating by the same trainers - however, she was happy to do anything and everything I asked of her - and she really loved learning to use some of the agility equipment... all for praise only... Both of my dogs have also had some training sessions with professional trainers - more for my benefit than theirs, may I add... *grin*... and having 2 dogs with totally different motivations can be interesting when you try to teach them the basics of obedience. Each dog had totally different methods used to gain the exact same results... confusing ain't it? T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I think obedience schools should be open minded in regard to training tools. My dogs are very very different in their training needs. I trained both on a CC but one dog will work beautifully with a combo of food and praise and needs very little correction, whereas the other dog works better with corrections. If you praise him or offer him treats, he gets ridiculously excited and will not concentrate. If you offer 'gentle' praise (quiet "good boy") and fair corrections, he will work very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 I actually think it is weird that people think that they can go along to a school and not follow the methods in place. I find out the training philosophy and if I don't agree then I simply don't go!!! There might be aspects of the training that I don't agree with so I will adjust that, but I wouldn't go if the whole thing didn't sit well with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I personally think that it's totally appropriate for a club to recommend a member with a dog who has a serious behaviourial problem consult a knowledgable trainer one on one. Most clubs are about training obedience not fixing serious behaviourial problems and the two can require very different skill and approaches. I wouldn't expect a club to change their entire philosophies or anything, but I don't think a little bit of flexibility or open-mindedness is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 But would you want to train at a club with such rigid beliefs? I wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 But would you want to train at a club with such rigid beliefs? I wouldn't. Each club has their own approach though and it would be remiss to expect them all to be the same. I train at the club I do because it's flexible and utilises a range of methods. It allows me to train my dog in a way that suits her best Keeping in mind though that I go there largely to do distraction work and I will never do a full class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 No! If a club told me I had to train with a cc and no food or clicker I would respect their policy and go to a different club. But would you want to train at a club with such rigid beliefs? I wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Hmmm bedazzledx2 you might be running out of options if you wanted to find a club here .Not quite as fortunate as you lot over west to have a solid group of people who are happy and welcoming of helping others outside a club environment. Edited January 30, 2010 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 You know it only takes a few like minded people to start a small group dedicated to helping each other out and training their way on the side lines. We have all paid membership to the clubs we train at and have asked very respectully if it was ok to train on the sidelines if we also pay light money. Most of us are fairly experienced so they know we aren't going to do anything stupid and we make sure we don't interfere with the classes at all. Worth a go anyway Hmmm bedazzledx2 you might be running out of options if you wanted to find a club here .Not quite as fortunate as you lot over west to have a solid group of people who are happy and welcoming of helping others outside a club environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Yep did a bit of that but when it ends up falling back on your shoulders with nobody else overly interested it tends to fall by the wayside. Ah well guess that is always the way though and can't be helped. But agree if you can find a group of people who are all willing to pull their weight then I think it certainly works well. Edited January 30, 2010 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 People come to my classes (which are specifically for reactive and aggressive dogs) to seek instruction. I do not use check chains, so they are not used in my classes. I have never had a dog that "needed" a check chain, or a dog who didn't respond to my methods. That said, my classes are geared specifically towards using +R methods and if they resembled a typical obedience club then a lot of dogs would not be able to learn efficiently using +R in that environment. I don't agree with those who think it is too "rigid" or demonstrates a lack of competence if a club won't allow check chains. Do what you do best, and if you think there is room for improvement find someone you think you can learn from and listen. Back in the days when food and clickers weren't allowed in clubs those of us who wanted to use them either offered to run a class using +R or left and formed our own group. Unfortunately, a lot of people did this without respect for those who didn't have the same opinion, including myself, but I think most of us have got over ourselves now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 The key to training isn't having loads of tools in your toolbox. Training tools are just the icing on the cake and quite frankly I'd avoid any club that indicated a reliance on tools, whether they be one tool or a whole plethora of different tools. The key to training is understanding what is motivating a dog to do what they are doing. I have no problem with people who choose to use a training tool to help them along the way, but geez, it's not rocket science. There was a time when we didn't have a lot of the tools we do now. When I was growing up just 15 years ago there was check chains... and there was check chains. It was the only tool you could get hold of. I'd pick a club with an emphasis on philosophies rather than tools. The tools they ban or espouse might be an indication of what methods they are most comfortable with. I have chosen not to go to the local club because they encourage correctional tools. I'm going to one that tells you to bring a tug toy to lessons instead. That decision was based on hoping against hope of finding some trainers that knew what "free shaping" meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 But would you want to train at a club with such rigid beliefs? I wouldn't. No I wouldn't want to train with a club those beliefs I didn't agree with but I don't think it is wrong that they have the beliefs. It was just the same in the horsey world. Each instructor followed a method and it was up to you to find a path that you liked and then an instructor that taught that way. So I guess I am just used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) I think the only issue is when people go to a training club that has XYZ technique only and then XYZ technique does not work for their dog so they believe (incorrectly) that their dog cannot be trained- especially if they have been told by the club that using a halti or correctional collar is 'evil' OR using food rewards is just bribery etc. They then think that their dog is untrainable. People don't know about the can of worms relating to training techniques! Let me also say that some people want a private lesson within a group class- that can't happen! Differenr training styles- private, semi private or group suit different people, at different stages of learning and there have been some cases wher i have encouraged someone to do private lessons in combination with group training or vice versa because they need a little extra. There is also a difference between clubs and professional training orgs. I would not expect a club run by volunteers to know about free shaping (it would be a bonus if they did) but i would expect professional trainers to. Edited January 30, 2010 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 The club I go to as a general rule lots of people use either CC or Haltis. They use a check chain, but are not taught the correct manner to use them, so as the go along the dog still pulls so they use a Halti. I use martingales as I have WHippets. If a club didn't allow a martingale I wouldn't go as it is a safety issue with the breed of dogs I have. A person can give corrections on a CC, Martingale, flat collar or halti. Doesn't mean that they will achieve anything and they may be quite harmful depending on the degree. I think a club should be flexible, but if they truely do not know how to deal with a certain type of behaviour, then say so, but give the person someone to go and see instead that can help them, don't just send them on their way. I do not expect everyone to be happy trying to deal with a large dog aggressive dog that is trying to attack everything. I would be more than happy for someone to have a check chain on their dog if they were concerened re lunging and control, and be training with a clicker and treats. They are only using a check chain as an 'incase" not as a method of training. I use a clicker and food at my club, no-one else clicker trains, but some use food. I asked them before I started if they would mind if I used it, they said as long as it didn't interfere with anyone else they didn't have a problem with it. I also work off towards the outer of the class and finish if I need to before they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozzie Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) The club I was going to used to be a CC only club. Now it's whatever collar works for you and your dog. Food, praise,praise, praise and motivators are the go. When I was taking my little ACD girl (RIP) I had to work at the outside of the group because her motivator was a squeaky toy.... puppies love squeakies. I learnt to squeak quietly, lol. Edited January 30, 2010 by Rozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tez Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 So say the club offered a variety of training tools...how does the dog cope with going from one method, say +R, to another method, say cc??? Wouldn't this just confuse the dog (and owner)? How long would you give a dog training with one method before training with another???? No doubt its up to the individual but this is putting alot of pressure on the trainer when there are multiple attendees. Surely it is also up to the owner to research and define their own training preferences BEFORE attending an obedience club so they can decide which sort of club they want to attend. I think that as long as a club is up front and transparent with their rules and philosophies, then the owner has the obligation and responsibilty to attend a club best suited to their preferred method. Perhaps clubs could inform attendees of the different methods available but this does not necessarily mean they have to use all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I went to an obedience club where all dog had to be on check chains ... even the young dogs. I hate check chains and didn't like using them ... but have no ojections to others using them. Every dog is different and there is no one method that will work with every dog. Some dogs work well with positive only while others need some level of correction. I am used to strong willed and high drive dogs ... so I prefer to use a prong on my dogs and find it much gentler on the dog then a check chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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