Just Curious....

[tlc]

Pandii, you must have only read part of my post, I also said we have older dogs and they are assessed before they start lessons with us. Our local rspca recommends our training school to rehomed dog owners because we practice the modern method which can sometimes be easier on rehomed dogs that are a bit sensitive or have had a hard trot before they go to thier new homes. We have had quite a few success storys with rehomed dogs from the RSPCA who have excelled using the method we use.

[Dfa Dog]

I use a Halti on my Newfoundland (mainly for safety reasons- he's weighs A LOT more than me!!) and used it at our last obedience club. During sign up, as they had a clause saying that they were allowed, but that they encouraged 'weaning' the dogs off them as they went higher up in the classes. If a club had a blanket ban on haltis or CC I would look elsewhere for training.

[mawson]

This may be a little but I would like to point out that the club being mentioned IS NOT endorsed by the RSPCA, there are simply a number of local volunteers from the shelter that also volunteer at the club. The club also does a dog and cat food collection at Christmas time, I'm sure this does not mean that RSPCA endorses the club..... is appreciative of course but does not endorse.

I couldn't actually see the relevance of a number of points posted earlier, including this one. It appears to have been suggested that RSPCA endorses this club due to the non use of CC. RSPCA is not opposed to the use of CC, this decision has been made by the original founders of the club. It is a decision that not everyone agrees with and is exactly the reason that TLC is chasing further information about what is done at other clubs. Another point was made about the club not allowing a dog with stitches in its neck to train with anything but a flat collar, I will go as far as to say that this has to be total and utter crap as the club in question allows harnesses, gentle leaders and other headcollars etc. There was never any mention of the club only allowing flat collars, but a range of other collars, leads, harnesses, just not CC and you wouldn't put one on a dog with stiches in its neck anyway.

It's a shame that the thread has to degrade to a club bashing session when there was some really useful info coming through from others posters. I know we don't all agree about all the methods of the two clubs in town, but it would be great if we can all work together to find solutions to improve them both

[tlc]

Mawson you are Awesome!! I really appreciate your input, always the calm voice of reason!! Thank you!!

[JulesP]

My club has now banned CC. If people insist on using them then they have to have a one on one session with the head instructor to assess whether they can use them correctly.

[Guest Pandii]

I appreciate your point of view Mawson, but the information I have from the RSPCA is different to what you have posted, but I am happy to disagree.

DO you know the dog I refer to that had stiches??? The information was that the dog could not train even with a vets clearence letter to say it was ok, unless it had a flat collar on teh sat on the sitiches, a gentle leader, which sat on the stiches or the dog wore a halti which sat on the stiches.

A harness was deemed unsuitable for use.

No one is bashing the club, jsut a range of different opions.

If the club was more flexible and not so elite, it would be a great club as it does offer things that other clubs dont, its just a shame they wont allow what is in the best intrest of the dog and owner.

i would like it to include more owner and be more approachable in its ideas in regards to training methods, which is what TLC was asking about

[Caniche]

This may be a little but I would like to point out that the club being mentioned IS NOT endorsed by the RSPCA, there are simply a number of local volunteers from the shelter that also volunteer at the club. The club also does a dog and cat food collection at Christmas time, I'm sure this does not mean that RSPCA endorses the club..... is appreciative of course but does not endorse.

I couldn't actually see the relevance of a number of points posted earlier, including this one. It appears to have been suggested that RSPCA endorses this club due to the non use of CC. RSPCA is not opposed to the use of CC, this decision has been made by the original founders of the club. It is a decision that not everyone agrees with and is exactly the reason that TLC is chasing further information about what is done at other clubs. Another point was made about the club not allowing a dog with stitches in its neck to train with anything but a flat collar, I will go as far as to say that this has to be total and utter crap as the club in question allows harnesses, gentle leaders and other headcollars etc. There was never any mention of the club only allowing flat collars, but a range of other collars, leads, harnesses, just not CC and you wouldn't put one on a dog with stiches in its neck anyway.

It's a shame that the thread has to degrade to a club bashing session when there was some really useful info coming through from others posters. I know we don't all agree about all the methods of the two clubs in town, but it would be great if we can all work together to find solutions to improve them both :D

Hi all, been pretty new to all this I was getting confused, I always thought responsible owners trained their dogs and went to things like obedience to both train and socialise dogs. Gosh I did not realise it was such a mine field.

Besides what does it matter if the RSPCA supports it or not, surely it's a win win for dogs and owners to train dogs take them out of the backyard, improve skills, meet new people and dogs.

But I really would not like someone screaming down my throat that my club was no good, most of the people there are volunteers, older ladies giving up their time to teach new dog owners and young dogs how to get the best of each other. Keeps them out of the shelters dont you think?

[Cosmolo]

We have all different equipment used in our classes BUT every owner with every piece of equipment is taught to use it properly. I don't have a problem with clubs or trainers saying they don't use XYZ- provided that if the method they do use is not working for a dog they can explore other options or send the dog on to someone who can assist with a different technique.

Not every trainer has to use every technique- but i don't like trainers putting clients off something with emotive language. I have heard just as many 'bad' comments by trainers about food (its just bribery etc etc) as i have correction chains (they're cruel, you'll damage the dog and your reationship etc) and both annoy me!

[tlc]

Hi all, been pretty new to all this I was getting confused, I always thought responsible owners trained their dogs and went to things like obedience to both train and socialise dogs. Gosh I did not realise it was such a mine field.

Besides what does it matter if the RSPCA supports it or not, surely it's a win win for dogs and owners to train dogs take them out of the backyard, improve skills, meet new people and dogs.

But I really would not like someone screaming down my throat that my club was no good, most of the people there are volunteers, older ladies giving up their time to teach new dog owners and young dogs how to get the best of each other. Keeps them out of the shelters dont you think?

Hi Caniche, Welcome to DOL, I agree 100% we do aim at our club to keep dog owners and dogs all happy and make training an enjoyable experience for all and at the end of the day hope that dogs and owners go away happy and take something from training with them however big or small.

In relation to what mawson said about everyone not agreeing on the methods used by both clubs here in town, I would like to think that between the two clubs there is something for everyone no matter what the method you like to use. and hopefully dogs going to either club will benifit from methods used.

In regard to the dog with the stitches in his/her neck, I am unaware of this, but I know if it was any of my lot with stitches in thier neck bad enough not to be able to have a collar on, I sure as heck wouldn't be taking them to obedience training.

I will say I do also have an ulterior motive for some of my questions, not to give to much away as it is only in the very early stages of development and it may never happen, but a friend of mine is thinking about starting another club here in town and the methods used there would be very wide and very varied as far as the types of aids and techniques used for training, she is a fully qualified trainer with lots of experience and doesn't mind teaching and helping people and handling dogs with problems extreme or otherwise!! She is like a female dog whisperer Like I said not sure if it will pan out as she has other things on the go and it is in the very early stages so who knows what might happen in the future but fingers crossed.

edited for spelling!

Edited January 29, 2010 by tlc

[tlc]

We have all different equipment used in our classes BUT every owner with every piece of equipment is taught to use it properly. I don't have a problem with clubs or trainers saying they don't use XYZ- provided that if the method they do use is not working for a dog they can explore other options or send the dog on to someone who can assist with a different technique.

Not every trainer has to use every technique- but i don't like trainers putting clients off something with emotive language. I have heard just as many 'bad' comments by trainers about food (its just bribery etc etc) as i have correction chains (they're cruel, you'll damage the dog and your reationship etc) and both annoy me!

Thats what I have been trying to say our methods are not for everyone/everydog but we do everything possible to send the people who dont suit away armed with lots of info about where they can go next.

I know exactly where you are coming from the different perceptions are amazing from some people, trainers and dog owners alike. We had a new owner and dog start training and once explained the modern method and how it works he said well I cant carry around a pocket full of food thats a false reality. I had to explain to him a 2nd and 3rd time that the food is used as a positive method to induce the behaviour then once the dog has got it ,the rewards are reduced till you dont need them any more. He just didnt get it. Training can sure be frustrating at times and there have been times that I have just wanted to pack it in (which is how im feeling about now) but i keep soldiering on. I love it and the dogs love it and if i help only one person I feel like I have done a good thing!!

[Caniche]

Thanks TLC hope your plans workout

[tlc]

Thanks TLC hope your plans workout

Ah me too, Hope you like DOL, it is a great place for dog lovers!!

[tez]

I think a dog obedience club has every right to set and adhere to a training philosophy of their choice as long as that philosophy is explained to and understood by people wanting to join. Its not elitist by definition but purely a means for clubs to be able to train a number of people and their dogs in a short amount of time with (more often than not) a small handful of very dedicated and skilled volunteer trainers. Surely its about giving people the tools they need to go home and practise what thay have been shown and instructed to do at class.

I would imagine that one trainer with 5 to 7 'students' would find it quite over-whelming to instruct a class with a variety of training methods in a short 1 hour session especially if a number of students are newbies.

I would also imagine that many owners would choose NOT take a dog to training if they had stitches and think that any responsible trainer would actively discourage a dog attending who did have stitches in-situ.

[tarope]

I would not go to an obedience training club that banned the use of check chains, as these clubs clearly haven't got a clue.

The check chain when used correctly is the most effective way to control a large dog, it's only a choke chain when some fool has is around the wrong way. You must also use the correct size too.

Imagine your at training and some inexperienced person is walking towards you with a large dog in a collar or harness and this dog is DA, when suddenly this dog lunges at you and the collar or harness breaks :D this has happened at all breeds but not to me.

The RSPCA does not approve of check chains and many other things but who cares what they think as they don't know one end of a dog from the other.

[skip]

I have found this topic an intersting read. I have 2 clubs in my area which seem to be different in their views.

I train in one with agility and miss their obedience classes only cause it is too early Sat morning but it is mostly positive. And I go to another club for obedience although this is not an area I compete in. However I go cause I like to work with my dogs and I like to socialise with like -minded people.

I was not very experienced with dogs and when I adopted my first 2 six years ago I remember fronting up to the first day in class armed with 2 chokers. Do you know how hard it is to find 2 choker chains to fit 2 midget small dogs? I looked everywhere to get 2 small enough. I roll up to the first day of school and line up with all the other proud owners. I remember the instructor sizing me and my dogs up and asking if my dogs pull a lot. I shake my head and she asks if they are hard to control. I shake my head and she asks why the check chains. She explained flat collars are OK. Until this moment I thought all dogs were trained in check chains.

So I learnt all about the other way to train with positive rewards. Five years later and the same dogs I roll up in a new town with another club. On joining the club you get a limited slip chain collar and another set of training guidelines. Hopefully now I know more and I wade a path thru 2 seemingly different methods to find a training style that suits my dogs and me. To highlight the main difference in the 2 clubs - My first club had the motto that you ask and if the dog doesn't do it he gets zip. The second club uses the motto that you don't ask, you tell!.

I am not confused about which method I like which is the first but I have been wondering how many clubs out there teach like the second method?

Althou I must point out that not everyone at the second club follows the motto and many are using more positive methods.

I appreciate the time and effort people put in to help at the club and we are lucky to have many experienced dog trainers giving us advice. I have been thinking I could put my hand up to help but have only stood back as the different methods confuse me. Maybe I should offer to help and see what happens in the future.

Thanks for the post as I thought my first club was different and I was curious how other clubs worked.

[poodlefan]

Any club that espouses a "one size fits all" narrow training and equipment philosophy is going to fail a proportion of its members. Not only will they fail to help some handlers but even more sadly they will fail some DOGS.

The key to successfully training dogs is to have a range of tools in your toolbox.

Any club that restricts its instructors and members to one tool only sets handlers up for failure.

There are a range of methods and equipment that fit within any training philosphy. There's a hell of a difference between a dog training organisation adhering to a set of training principles and that group becoming zealots that fail to meet the needs of the community they service.

The challenge of course is to know where the line between the two lies. I can think of a few examples where IMO the line has been crossed.

Edited January 29, 2010 by poodlefan

[tlc]

Tez, your right and thats why we live in this wonderful country we live in, freedom of choice. We all have the right to pick and choose and do what suits us and our precious doggys!!

Skip, I was like you too, I think I said in one of my earlier posts that I too thought cc's was the only way to train untill I was educated about other methods. And you are definatley right about the different methods being confusing, I do sit on the fence a bit when it comes to some of the methods because Ive seen good and bad in a lot and as previously said not all methods work for all dogs,It is sometimes difficult to work out what is exactly right for each dog. I think a good dog owner will figure out sooner rather than later the best way to train thier dog and what works for them and we do our best as trainers to steer the people in the right direction to make the best decision for them and thier dogs.

[persephone]

I would be useless at any obedience club!

I hardly use my voice, I don't use treats,and I quite like the jingle of a 'fursaver' chain collar ...tho I haven't used one in years.

My 2 cents worth is that new dog owners/owners having problems, should be able to find guidance and information at any club. Sure methods will not suit all, but I believe that is the owner's choice, not the club's.

Ideally, club instructors would be versed in using all sorts of training aids/tools, and be able to show owners the correct and most effective use of all the aids-voice, touch, collars,food....blah blah blah...

Ideally....

This is an interesting thread :D

[tlc]

:D I would be useless at any obedience club!

I hardly use my voice, I don't use treats,and I quite like the jingle of a 'fursaver' chain collar ...tho I haven't used one in years.

My 2 cents worth is that new dog owners/owners having problems, should be able to find guidance and information at any club. Sure methods will not suit all, but I believe that is the owner's choice, not the club's.

Ideally, club instructors would be versed in using all sorts of training aids/tools, and be able to show owners the correct and most effective use of all the aids-voice, touch, collars,food....blah blah blah...

Ideally....

This is an interesting thread

Ideally that is what Id like to see achieved in the future for our club!

I dont often start threads and Ive never had one called interesting before

[skip]

I have been interested in this thread. And maybe I should not be so sure that positive training is the only way to go. ( not that I know much)

As poodlefan suggests maybe it is not so bad to have some different views in the mix. And I will confess I notice a difference from working with rewards on offer and maybe what happens later when the dog knows you haven't any treats. THere was a club in Newcastle that offered reward training and non reward training. Is that The way to go? There is a man in my class now who doesn't use treats but his dog will ignore him and go to other people who have treats. How hard is that?

Offering a choice like this is beyond the means of many clubs as there are not enough instructors.

Regardless of the type of methods used - one trainer I have who is very good with her dogs insists the biggest thing is to be CONSISTANT! When you have a trainer who is so spot on with their dogs it os a bit hard to realise that sometimes it is just us that is confusing or holding back our dogs.

The clubs do the best they can. At my first club in the country a man turned up with a particularly aggressive unsocialised dog. He was an unlikely person to find at the club. His dog was trying to attack everything and he was cursing his dog and waving his fist at it in a very threatening manner. Many club members were disgusted. But surely a man like this had the most to learn. Some instructors hoped he would go as it was fairly distressing to watch.

But as time went on he turned up every week and tried another method besides cursing and hitting his dog. Once shown another way he tried hard and ended up changing a lot. The club awarded him the trophy as most improved that year and I remember him clearly. The way he treated his dog was all he knew but he came to learn and change.

If I was clever enough it would be an interesting poll to see what methods or combination of methods clubs were using?

Edited January 29, 2010 by skip