Just Curious....

[tdierikx]

I prefer to use a check chain for my dogs when doing class oriented training... however, each dog is fitted with a chain that is the right link size and length for them. I prefer a heavier link as it tends to be less likely to pinch the dog or catch their fur. 99% of the training session will be with the chain loose - correction is only a very light tug, enough for the chain to make a noise, rather than digging into the dog's neck with "vigour" (for want of a better way of saying it).

If I have a dog that is a "puller", I don't use the chain - it's pretty ineffective in training if they are already pulling at it - so other methods are employed then - under the supervision of a dog training professional.

I do not use prong collars - luckily I have never had a dog that one was recommended for...

T.

[tlc]

I have seen the effects of both extremes of training at two different clubs - purely positive reinforcement (food) and purely positive punishment (correction collar). Both of which have generally proven to be very detrimental to the dogs.

I have seen positive reinforcement using food turn into nothing but a reward for bad behaviour, where there are no consequences for undesirable behaviour as the behaviour is ignored by the owner, and this has resulted in dogs that are out of control, cannot heel loosely on lead without food shoved in their faces and most definitely cannot be allowed off lead in open spaces or in the company of other dogs. They freely aggress and lunge at other dogs because the owners have no control what so ever, and there are no negative consequences for the dog as a result of that behaviour.

I have seen purely positive punishment using correction collars or physical punishment used as a consequence of bad behaviour, with NO positive reinforcement given for desirable behaviour, result in dogs that MAY be compliant with the owners directions, but certainly not willingly, with no enthusiasm and a great deal of fear. In some cases it has escalated the undesirable behaviour.

I sincerely believe that training should involve all four of the following, DEPENDING ON THE DOG: positive reinforcement (food toys, pats); negative reinforcement (removal of pressure when using compulsion ie hands on); positive punishment (correction) and negative punishment (withholding treat, pat, attention). I believe that owners/trainers should be able to utilise any or all four methods, if necessary, to ensure the best possible outcome for the dog/owner team and that no club/organisation should turn away people purely because of their chosen training method. This only alienates people who need help and results in problem dogs.

The bit I have bolded is exactly what I have been trying to get across at my club, I think you really hit the nail on the head with this section of your post the bold part especially, I think also as trainers it is good to help the people understand what it is each particular dog needs and helping them recognize that. Our club has turned away problem dogs that really need more effective methods of controlling thier behaviour which is not good because if they don't seek out other forms of training then the problem dog just escalates. Our club is really not equiped to deal with problem dogs which is a pity, we are a very small club, non profit with all volley trainers. What we aim to do is start people off on right track from the start with puppy classes and hope they continue on, and some do some dont, but more often than not the positive method works when it has been used right from the word go but it is up to us to teach the correct way. We try to have the reinforcments greatly reduced by the time the 6 weeks of puppy school is finished so the pups are doing the desired behaviours without needing the food every time. One of my girls who is a really cluey little toad, she will work brilliantly for food, she will work brilliantly even if she knows Ihave food in my pocket, but if I dont show her that I have the food I might as well give up Not sure who is at fault there, my training method or doggy to clever (and a little foody) but it doesnt matter with her I only have to show her the food and she works great just in the hope she gets a smidgen at the end (which she does)

I guess it is definatly all about finding a balance or what works for what dog and getting the average Jo to see what the dog needs, which is sometimes impossible, how many of you that train dogs get soooooo frustrated with people who just dont get it and or dont understand either that or dont have the coordination to pull it off. I am pretty level headed and calm and dont loose my cool easily and consider myself a very patient and layed back person but gee some do test your patience!! On the other hand there are some that just have it!! I always try to think back to my beginning and how I must have been when first starting out.

Some great replies guys I am so interested to hear about how different clubs work, thanks!

[Guest Pandii]

TLC, the club should let people use what they want

To not allow poeple to join if they choose to use a check chain, or a limited slip, or a martingale or a variety of other collars in unacceptable.

To only allow gentle leader or halti type or a flat collar, is really limiting the range of dogs they allow into the club.

A shar Pei should wear a limited slip due to the skin around their neck, so either you rsik causing harm tot he dog or you train somewhere else.

Rottis that are kicked out of class due to being high prey drive that no flat collar is going to control.

Koolies been asked to leave as they are to smart and get board with the constant repeatition.

Dogs that have stiches in the neck area being refused and not allowed to wear alternative harnesses.

Owners been asked to leave as they have said no to their dog in a firm voice.

I could go on and on.

The RSPCA endorses this club, and they have said they dont care if its in the dogs best intrested to wear different training aids.

There are also people who have used this club that have then had to employ private trainers to help with problems.

[poodlefan]

People at my club are encouraged to obedience train on flat collars. However, check chains are not banned and people may use them provided they do so correctly. Their use is not advocated though.

People are not permitted to use haltis or harnesses in the trialling classes as they may not use them in an obedience trial.

Agility training is on flat collars only for safety reasons.

[tlc]

Pandii, the club has obviously changed a lot int he last 4 years since I have been there. A change of managment to the club for starters, Im not sure how long ago you went there but in the time I have been there none of what you posted has happened to my knowledge apart from the CC thing which is the point of this thread and a lady with a very aggressive Rotti was asked to leave, it had bigger problems than we knew how to deal with, I think you are well aware of the dog in question. Not sure about the repetition thing as none of our classes are what I would class as repetitious as the dogs get bored very easily and it is far better to be doing different things with them than to do repetative stuff.

As far as employing private trainers to help with problems are you refering to general obedience problems or something different?

Im sure plenty of people who have been to obedience clubs have also sought the advice of a private trainer for other matters aside from obedience, haven't you??

[Guest Pandii]

The club may have changed in some areas, but it is still endorsed by the RSPCA and they still state they dont care about whatever reason a dog cant wear a flat collar even if it causes the dog pain that is all they are allowed to wear. This was with int he last month.

Half of what I stated has been in the last 12 months. Including either forcing a dog with stiches in its neck to wear a flat collar or go else where.

Other trainers to help with things that even include basic lead walking and no pulling.

The time I have used a private trainer has either been for dogs that are not mine, eg staying here or fosters.

or to help with problems with dogs that are not doing obedience training at a club and was not an obedience issue that a club would normally deal with

I have not been there recently, as I refuse to cause harm to my dog with the methods that are enforced at that club

High prey drive is different to the aggression that rotti had, I thought you would know that as you help train there

Edited January 29, 2010 by Pandii

[tlc]

No where in any of my post ever have I said that prey drive is the same as aggression. I DO know the difference, now back to the topic at hand. This thread was not started for people to slag the club off. I am only trying to better what we do, hence the reason for starting this thread to get ideas in general. Lucky for people in town who prefer other methods there is another club they can use.

[Guest Pandii]

If you want to make the club more friendly and not so elite be more flexable in the methods you use.

Let people use the correct type of collars for the breeds they own, let them use the collar that allows the dog to be comfortable and not in pain.

I dont think I "slagged" the club off at all, just stated facts about the club.

There is another training club in town plus another close by, but saying well if you dont like it go somewhere else, is not been accomadating, open or friendly. It also denies people a chance to train their dogs.

Would the club rather be more flexable and enable poeple to access the club or would they rather send people to another club or risk that dog not getting any training at all

[grumpette]

I would love to see clubs encouraging owners to utilise their voices more in conjunction with positive reinforcement (food toys, pats); negative reinforcement (removal of pressure when using compulsion ie hands on); positive punishment (correction) and negative punishment (withholding treat, pat, attention). The three tones of voice are so effective with MOST dogs regardless of size/breed when paired with the above and owners NEARLY always have their voice with them.

The reason I say this is that dogs are not always on lead, owners don't always have food, ball or toy, or clicker. But they can still have effective control of their dogs in most situations if a deep tone has been paired with a correction or warning, a command tone has been associated with sit, drop, stay and if a praise tone has been connected to a reinforcer/reward.

When done correctly the owner has nearly total control over their dog and their dog has more freedom to enjoy off lead walks, swimming, romps with other dogs, more freedom inside the house etc.

[tlc]

Grumpette I totally agree we encourage people to be more vocal, it is amazing the amount of people that don't even speak or encourage the dog at all to begin with. It is a great tool with my lot and I keep a secret high pitched word up my sleeve for special occassions... Lol

[Guest Pandii]

The voice can be very effective

In my experience this club has asked poeple to leave for using a firm or loud voice as it is negative training

[Dogsfevr]

It seems by some posts & clubs regarding difficult dogs maybe its an easy excuse not to have them??

If people are being turned away then the clubs are failing these people trying to do right & it seems hypocritical of the clubs reason for being there

If Cc where so horrid why then at dog shows do you see plenty of happy dogs running around with no issues??

When i trialled my dogs they where trained on what they liked,just like my show dogs are shown on the lead that works for them.

Obviously you have to pick your collar when trialling but i found for some of my dogs who occasionally got board varying leads just gave them a new pick me up.

Having said that over the years & attending OB classes it really didnt matter what lead i used when the first thing out of various trainers mouths where "o dear you have a setter" & you get ignored for the rest of the season

A good trainer will have a preference BUT should always be open to each dogs individual needs.

I now when i train juniors in the show ring i have a style i like BUT it doesnt mean it matches that child, there dog & abilities.

One needs to get to now the person ,dog & there self confidence to set a good path for them.

I would never say never because it limits ones skill & thinking

Edited January 29, 2010 by showdog

[Guest Pandii]

Well Said SHOWDOG

[Nekhbet]

I use check chains in my private consults when required. Too many people have been berated and terrified off them I think they're great tools considering EVERYTHING ELSE USEFUL has been banned in this stupid state

You correct with the collar, reward with your voice and actions. Simple, effective and faster learning for the dog.

I think clubs should not ban equipment. Then again a lot of clubs seem to be just that ... clubs for the select few that fit their criteria and make the rest feel like outcasts with untrainable dogs if they dont fit in the mould. I though that defeated the point of why people became trainers. ..

[tlc]

I use check chains in my private consults when required. Too many people have been berated and terrified off them I think they're great tools considering EVERYTHING ELSE USEFUL has been banned in this stupid state

You correct with the collar, reward with your voice and actions. Simple, effective and faster learning for the dog.

I think clubs should not ban equipment. Then again a lot of clubs seem to be just that ... clubs for the select few that fit their criteria and make the rest feel like outcasts with untrainable dogs if they dont fit in the mould. I though that defeated the point of why people became trainers. ..

You are right there for sure, The point of me posting this thread was out of curiosity to see what other clubs do and what they offer as far as different methods. I dont have any input as to the methods our club use as they were set in stone before I got there, I do however voice my opinion if i think a dog needs a different method of training other than what we offer and try to help people get the best training for thier dog. Our club is more geared towards new puppy owners starting out rather than older dogs who are just beginning although they are not turned away they are usually given a one on one lesson to see if they will be suitable for our club, which I do agree sounds elitist but like I said we are just not equiped to deal with problem dogs in a major way and as I said they do have the option of another club or two around the area so they are not just left to thier own devices.

Id like to see all clubs allow all methods of training so people have a bigger choice and can do the best by thier dog training wise as they can!

[Dogsfevr]

Id like to see all clubs allow all methods of training so people have a bigger choice and can do the best by thier dog training wise as they can!

That would seem obvious but obviously isnt.

It seems at a time where promoting responsible ownership & doing right for your dog could be set back in one easy go by Obedience clubs that turn people away or made to feel belittled by there choice.

One also wonders if people attending these classes are getting brainwashed if joe public make comments on the street.

Its funny you never here anything like that at a show

That is madness.

[Miss Squish]

A shar Pei should wear a limited slip due to the skin around their neck, so either you rsik causing harm tot he dog or you train somewhere else.

Sorry Pandii but I dont agree, I have sucessfully trained & trialled my Shar pei with a check chain & always will.

My club recommend check chains for most dogs but are ok with flat collars, martingale collars & also head collars in the lower classes.

[MsKatie]

It's funny - after training 2 dogs using check chains I used a martingale for Rosie (after reading about them on here) when I took her about a year ago and the instructor didn't know what it was

[tlc]

I didnt know what a martingale was either, never had the need to use one, I had also never seen a prong collar till I watched Cesar Millan.

[Guest Pandii]

Sorry Pandii but I dont agree, I have sucessfully trained & trialled my Shar pei with a check chain & always will.

My club recommend check chains for most dogs but are ok with flat collars, martingale collars & also head collars in the lower classes.

Sorry I didnt word that right, I was told not to use a flat collar, but a CC or limited slip or a collar with give in it would do, Limited slip was what was recommended to me and what i use

It is also the collar that this club refused to allow when I wanted to join.

I worry about this club as TLC says Our club is more geared towards new puppy owners starting out rather than older dogs, if this is so then why does the RSPCA endorse and recommend this club for ALL dogs that are adopted from the RSPCA shelter.

The club does not state it is for new puppy owners, I was never told this when I called up.