Just Curious....

[tlc]

Hi guys, I was wondering how many obedience schools out there around Australia, DON'T allow chocker/check/correction chains?? It is just curiousity on my part really. I am an assistant trainer with one of our local obedience clubs and we use the Modern Method, all positive reinforcments and no CC allowed!

All my lot were trained using the positive method on flat collars and it has worked fine for them and me. I do however realize that Check chains have a place and are widely used and I have no objection to that at all, each to thier own and what method suits one dog doesn't suit all dogs.

So what I wondered was if your club doesn't allow check chains, do you still have people come and train with you without the CC and then when they are away from training use the CC?

Also have you had people go and find another club that allows CC?

We have had new puppy people come to class expecting to use CC because they think that is the only method you can train a dog with, they are very pleased and suprised when they see how well the modern method works, which is great as I think it is all about giving people all the information available so they can choose the best method to suit thier dog, especially for new puppy owners.

The first club I went to told me I had to use a CC and I wasnt impressed about this as I thought there had to be another way to train a dog, so I found the other club in town and we never looked back.

I would just like to say also that I am not against correcting the dog in a way that suits the dog if need be, but it is tough as I cannot enforce this at training, I have to stick with the program and it is tough sometimes when it is clear to see the dog needs another sort of training method than just the strait out positive reinforcement.

Living in a reasonable small town it is impossible for me to go to another club as we only have two. Do most obedience clubs have strict poilicies on what method is to be used for training or are they open to using different methods for different dogs?

Any feed back would be great however small or large, thanks for reading.

[huski]

Our club lets people use check chains if they wish, as well as martingales/head collars/food/toys etc.

I personally train Daisy on a flat collar but at least our club is able to show people how to use various tools correctly if they want to.

ETA: The type of training I use is quite different to what is taught in classes, so I go to do my own thing and use the class as an opportunity to do some distraction work (I won't work Daisy for a full hour so use the time to train on and off).

Edited January 29, 2010 by huski

[Diva]

They are not encouraged at the clubs I know around here, but I don't think they are banned.

I certainly wouldn't kick anyone out of class for using one, but I'd want to be sure they knew how to use it properly and that it was appropriate for the dog they were using it on.

[tlc]

Thats great Huski, I guess Im trying to rack up ideas on how to diversify our club a little more and give people all the options instead of just one if they need it.

Our club does allow haltis and gentle leaders but usually only if the modern method isnt catching on where loose lead walking is concerned.

Just realized I maybe should have put this thread int he training section?

[Nic oh lah]

Our club lets people use check chains if they wish, as well as martingales/head collars/food/toys etc.

I personally train Daisy on a flat collar but at least our club is able to show people how to use various tools correctly if they want to.

I'm at the same club as Huski, and they basically said use what you are your dog are comfortable with. I personally choose to use a Check Chain, as it works well for me, I had a woman at a Dog Park attempt to berate me for using one as it's "not necessary" and cruel - she was there with her maltese X. I don't drag my dog along with the chain, nor do i yank on it or strangle her - the noise is what corrects her, and 95% of the time it's loose round her neck. I'm sure that she can be trained without it, but it's my preferred method for this particular dog who responds really well, but will strain against her flat collar if i tethered her by it. Also, she's not behaving because she's "scared of it" as one woman suggested - she is so hyper and happy when she spots the chain cause she knows it means we're doing something fun like training or walkies!

Edited January 29, 2010 by NicGSDlover

[huski]

Thats great Huski, I guess Im trying to rack up ideas on how to diversify our club a little more and give people all the options instead of just one if they need it.

Our club does allow haltis and gentle leaders but usually only if the modern method isnt catching on where loose lead walking is concerned.

Definitely tricky, as I think there is a big difference between training a dog to do something like tricks or obedience and training a dog with a behaviourial problem. You often see both types of dogs at obedience club, although many clubs are geared towards the former rather than the latter.

I don't see the difference between allowing the use of, say, a head collar and allowing the use of check chain (or prong for that matter but I think a lot clubs aren't permitted to use them by their canine control council) in terms of both being a corrective tool.

How they are used and if they are the right tool for the dog are the most important things IMO. No one size fits all and all that.

Edited January 29, 2010 by huski

[tlc]

They are not encouraged at the clubs I know around here, but I don't think they are banned.

I certainly wouldn't kick anyone out of class for using one, but I'd want to be sure they knew how to use it properly and that it was appropriate for the dog they were using it on.

The thing is with our club they are not allowed in the class if they want to use a CC and if they are adamant about it then they are told to go to the other club because that is one of thier methods. I guess because we have the other class in town there is that option for people that really want to train using the CC.

I guess what I am really wanting to pursue is to be able to give people all the options and also for the ones that think that CC are the only way to train a dog try to change that perception. so it goes both ways really.

[pixie_meg]

We went to a puppy school that would not allow check chains. They also used only positive reinforcement which just wasn't enough for my boy. We did seek out other trainers. We use a martingale which is effective for us. I've also been told by strangers that i'm being cruel for using collar corrections. I think a mixture of methods is a good concept. I don't think one method is better over another, just what ever works for the dog in question so i think its good to educate about many methods. Personally i find the most effective method for my boy to be some corrections, positive reinforcement and pack leadership.

[tlc]

NicGSDlover, this is the sort of thing Im talking about, you know what is available to you and you have choosen the method that suits your dog the best and you also know how to use that method to its fullest!

Huski Im with you about the Gentle leader and haltis, really they along with CCs are all corrective methods. but not everyone sees it that way, supposedly the Gentle leaders and Haltis arent as harsh as the CC but if you are using a CC in the right way then its all the same really. If you are contantly pulling and correcting with a CC then clearly it is not having the desired effect.

I cringe when I see people using CC on dogs that have no idea how to even put one on let alone how to make it work properly.

I'm off to walk the dogs but will be keen to see some more feed back when I get home!!

Thanks guys.

[tlc]

We went to a puppy school that would not allow check chains. They also used only positive reinforcement which just wasn't enough for my boy. We did seek out other trainers. We use a martingale which is effective for us. I've also been told by strangers that i'm being cruel for using collar corrections. I think a mixture of methods is a good concept. I don't think one method is better over another, just what ever works for the dog in question so i think its good to educate about many methods. Personally i find the most effective method for my boy to be some corrections, positive reinforcement and pack leadership.

Yes good post I agree, I use a few of Cesars little tricks with my lot, fantastic when you have more than one you have to be on your game to have everything flowing nicely!! Its all about finding what works best for your dog!!

[huski]

Huski Im with you about the Gentle leader and haltis, really they along with CCs are all corrective methods. but not everyone sees it that way, supposedly the Gentle leaders and Haltis arent as harsh as the CC but if you are using a CC in the right way then its all the same really. If you are contantly pulling and correcting with a CC then clearly it is not having the desired effect.

I cringe when I see people using CC on dogs that have no idea how to even put one on let alone how to make it work properly.

I cringe when I see any tool or method being misused

How 'harsh' the tool is really depends on the dog IMO. I used a head collar on Micha a few times years ago and he found it highly aversive... he would desperately try to get it off, fought it, pawed at his face and did the crocodile roll etc. Put a martingale on him and he doesn't even notice it. The martingale (or check chain) in this instance is the 'less harsh' tool for him.

[Diva]

so it goes both ways really.

That's for sure.

When I first started training, and for some years after, I was told I had to use a check chain. In reality at first it made little difference as the dog I had then didn't need it so I never 'checked' with it, he might as well have been on a flat collar because he never pulled and I never jerked.

Later though I had a trainer whose mantra on every turn was 'turn, check, praise' - whether the dog was in good position or not. Worked well for one of my dogs, ruined the performance of the other, and put me off formal obedience for some time. That dog would have done much better trained with an absolute minimum of corrections, but it just wasn't 'done' back then.

[Guest Willow]

I don't teach at a club as such, but I am a private trainer, and have contracts with a chain of vet clinics for puppy school, and with the RSPCA who does training for both puppy school & level one, and I don't use check chains in any of my own classes or private consults. If people come with a check chain on they have a choice....Both the vet & the RSPCA employ me because of this stance.

1. They allow me to lend them a flat collar & teach them alternative ways to "correct" behaviour

2. They can choose not to participate in class & go to another training place that does use check chains.

I had a client who I knew used a check chain outside of class, so I explained to him "look, I don't use them, I won't teach you how to use it because I don't agree with the use of them (and I explained why), but if you are willing to stay in class & try it my way I'm happy to have you here. I cannot control what you choose to do outside of class" To his credit, he stuck it out for 6 weeks and had a go.

I make it very clear from the beginning what type of training methods I use, and what I won't use, so people are free to decide if they want to train with me or go elsewhere.

[huski]

Later though I had a trainer whose mantra on every turn was 'turn, check, praise' - whether the dog was in good position or not. Worked well for one of my dogs, ruined the performance of the other, and put me off formal obedience for some time. That dog would have done much better trained with an absolute minimum of corrections, but it just wasn't 'done' back then.

I think a lot of people don't know what to do with dogs who have a bit of drive - like Daisy, I can't count the number of time I was told to correct her as soon as she put her nose to the ground.

Instead I've now learnt to harness and use that drive (or energy, for those who don't like the d word), instead of trying to quell it by correcting her for it. I have a much more focused, more keen and much more reliable dog now.

That's not to say there isn't a time and place for corrections, but that there are so many ways to do things and what works for one dog will not work for all.

[macka]

Check chains are not allowed at my club. I think this is a good thing, not because I don't like check chains (I think they have their place, along with martingales, prongs, etc), but because the trainers are volunteers and I wouldn't trust that they had the ability to show someone how to use one properly, so they'd end up being misused.

I like my club, it's just a bit of fun for me and the dog, but the trainers can be quite variable and I've learned to ignore a lot of the advice from them (although some has been quite useful).

[Kelly_Louise]

I have had to use a martingale, or half check, with Sasha, as she has pulled out of every other collar, harness etc.

Would this be taken into consideration at those clubs that do not approve of checks? Just wondering, as we do not use it as a corrective tool as such, just a way of making sure she stays safe and can not back out of it and run.

[Guest Willow]

I have had to use a martingale, or half check, with Sasha, as she has pulled out of every other collar, harness etc.

Would this be taken into consideration at those clubs that do not approve of checks? Just wondering, as we do not use it as a corrective tool as such, just a way of making sure she stays safe and can not back out of it and run.

I would accept a martingale, because they can be "fixed" in position, and cannot tighten indefinitely

[Kelly_Louise]

Oh okay. I have never used any kind of check chain or similar in my life on any of my dogs, don't necessarily like them (neither does Sasha) - however, for her safety it is imperative, so we're learning to live with it

[weisnjac]

Our local Obedience club lets people use whatever they are comfortable with. If the trainiers don't think what they are using is helping, they will suggest what they think may help, eg, check chain, martingale, flat collar etc. but they will not push anyone into using anything. Food and clickers are allowed also

[grumpette]

I have seen the effects of both extremes of training at two different clubs - purely positive reinforcement (food) and purely positive punishment (correction collar). Both of which have generally proven to be very detrimental to the dogs.

I have seen positive reinforcement using food turn into nothing but a reward for bad behaviour, where there are no consequences for undesirable behaviour as the behaviour is ignored by the owner, and this has resulted in dogs that are out of control, cannot heel loosely on lead without food shoved in their faces and most definitely cannot be allowed off lead in open spaces or in the company of other dogs. They freely aggress and lunge at other dogs because the owners have no control what so ever, and there are no negative consequences for the dog as a result of that behaviour.

I have seen purely positive punishment using correction collars or physical punishment used as a consequence of bad behaviour, with NO positive reinforcement given for desirable behaviour, result in dogs that MAY be compliant with the owners directions, but certainly not willingly, with no enthusiasm and a great deal of fear. In some cases it has escalated the undesirable behaviour.

I sincerely believe that training should involve all four of the following, DEPENDING ON THE DOG: positive reinforcement (food toys, pats); negative reinforcement (removal of pressure when using compulsion ie hands on); positive punishment (correction) and negative punishment (withholding treat, pat, attention). I believe that owners/trainers should be able to utilise any or all four methods, if necessary, to ensure the best possible outcome for the dog/owner team and that no club/organisation should turn away people purely because of their chosen training method. This only alienates people who need help and results in problem dogs.