In A Rare Breed What Do You Breed For?

[RallyValley]

This is just something that has been mulling over in my head. Chesapeake's are a rare breed in Australia and New Zeland . I am starting to save now because in a few years I want to import a bitch that I can hopefully use as a foundation for my breeding program.

I would love to import a bitch from my dog's line BUT in doing so I am bringing less genetic diversity into a country that needs it. Should I instead be thinking of bringing in an outcross so that in future we will have more choices, rather then limiting them now. I was wondering if anyone else has expirenced a similar situation and what you did?

Disclaimer:

1. I am aware that bringing in a bitch does not entitle me to breed her regardless of health testing/temprament/working ability (same goes for possible future breeding of my dog).

2. I am not saying that if I brought in a bitch from my dogs line I would necesarily breed them togther, I would look using AI from an overseas stud to get the best match.

Edited January 27, 2010 by valleywa

[Aziah]

I'd be looking at bringing in a bitch with one familiar line to that of your current dog and the remainder of the pedigree linebred but an outcross to what he already carries.

[Ceilidh]

I would look at a bitch that is like your dog in type and in whelp. Unrelated so you can broaden the gene pool. That way if she has a nice bitch puppy you then have two bitches you can use your dog on (supposing he is good enough of course)

[Dogsfevr]

I would enjoy your dog now & what & see what his future holds.

What until you have started showing & with to truly pursue this aspect.

Importing is very expensive & there is alot to consider in what direction you wish to head,what you would mate that litter too in the future.

I would be more inclined to not consider what will i import but what would be the 10 yr plane of any import & what you would expect to achieve in that time.

[RallyValley]

Ok. I am rephrasing my question:

Has anyone been involved with a rare breed? If you have what stratigies did you use to help your breed in the long run?

Did you bring in diffrent lines and make outcrosses with the knowlege that they can breed back in the future (but maybe sacrifice quality)?

OR Did you breed the best dogs you could regardless if it created diversity?

Showdog- I know for an import an absolute minimum figure would be around $10,000 total. If I want to make a 10 year plan I first have to figure out which lines are in it. I already have a few ideas in the back of my mind of lines/dogs that I think would complement what is already in Australia and build on it. BUT saying that I won't even be contacting overseas breeders about possible litters until Lincoln is 2 years old and has had a proper evaluation and health tests in case I want to consider him in a future breeding plan. That will also give me time to learn more. (I hope that explains my position better)

[BJean]

This is just something that has been mulling over in my head. Chesapeake's are a rare breed in Australia and New Zeland . I am starting to save now because in a few years I want to import a bitch that I can hopefully use as a foundation for my breeding program.

I would love to import a bitch from my dog's line BUT in doing so I am bringing less genetic diversity into a country that needs it. Should I instead be thinking of bringing in an outcross so that in future we will have more choices, rather then limiting them now. I was wondering if anyone else has expirenced a similar situation and what you did?

Disclaimer:

1. I am aware that bringing in a bitch does not entitle me to breed her regardless of health testing/temprament/working ability (same goes for possible future breeding of my dog).

2. I am not saying that if I brought in a bitch from my dogs line I would necesarily breed them togther, I would look using AI from an overseas stud to get the best match.

With my Anatolians, when I was looking for a female to import I looked for ages as I wanted to import a bitch that would be the same in type as mine but allow diveristy in lineage - eventually

I found some female ASDs that I liked as much as mine (kennel blind what's that?! )

so I'm happy to import a female puppy from them, but it is an infusion of another line only, I still intend to linebreed on my dam line.

With my Central Asians the female import I chose was a sire and dam combination

whom I have followed since they were puppies. Eventhough the CAO gene pool in Australia is very limited,

because I really like the sire/dam, I would consider another import from the same dam or sire.

On the other hand I imported CAO semen, more at the time for the 'genetic dvisity' of the breed than my own distinct purpose, and well yes I will use it, but I think I can achieve more using the lines I think are the best for what i am trying to do.

If you find a bitch that you really like, eventhough she has the same lines as your boy, I would still import her -

because if you import a bitch of different lineage, it may eventuate that she isn't the right physical compliment for your boy or any other stud you have access to anyway.

If you really like your boy and want to use him in your breeding program, collect his semen and freeze it away for future use.

imo with a very rare breed it's more important to get the foundation bitch / dam line right, because at the end of the day you can have access to all the best stud dogs in the world, but that wont matter if you haven't got a good bitch to put them to.

Also I think a good bitch will do more for a rare breed that a good male, because they are so much harder to get -

by that I mean semen from the best dogs locally and overseas can always be collected/frozen and ready to use at any time. Whereas with a breeding bitch there is a finite time window in which you have to breed, ultimately the genetic diversity / continuation of a rare breed rests with the fertility and soundness of foundation bitches.

nb: fwiw I don't think you need the disclaimer

Edited January 27, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

Ok. I am rephrasing my question:

Has anyone been involved with a rare breed? If you have what stratigies did you use to help your breed in the long run?

Did you bring in diffrent lines and make outcrosses with the knowlege that they can breed back in the future (but maybe sacrifice quality)?

OR Did you breed the best dogs you could regardless if it created diversity?

I tried the former but I now believe the latter is the better way to go.

I think you can do more for your breed establishing a solid line of excellent dogs

rather than establishing diversity and dogs that may not be as good.

Breed the best you can from what you think are the best dogs.

(genetic diversity in a breed is never static anyway - other breeders may enter and import new line)

Edited January 27, 2010 by lilli

[RallyValley]

Thanks lilli. Your answer was great and now I have some things to mull over, what you said about bringing in the best dam possible really struck a chord.

(Off Topic) People down the road from me used to have an Anatolian and I always remember her patrolling thier fence line, her name was Lady and she was such a nice looking dog.

[EISHUND]

Hi Valleywa,

Owner of a rare breed here! Very rare!

The initial importer of the breed brought over 3 bitches & a dog. 2 of the bitches are litter sisters, and the other dog & bitch have the same dam. He has had one litter of 3, and another litter but I'm not sure of quantity.

Fanuilos & I have recently imported 2, a dog & bitch, both littermates.

And just this month, another bitch has come over from France.

I know that more are in the pipeline, and the ones I know of have opted for lines different to what we already have in the country, which is fantastic. We just have to hope & pray that breeders will be open to working with each other, or the breed will struggle.

In total, I'd say we currently have UNDER 15 animals registered with the ANKC of our breed. 1 stud dog, plus our boy, who is only 5 & a half months!

Personally, I'd like to establish a solid foundation, and then introduce the genetic diversity.

But in saying that, I don't think i'd be one to hesitate taking a step back (a small step back, not too big!) & slightly sacrificing quality (not health or temperament though) to introduce a new line I like & want to work with, & then move forwards improving on that. Isn't that the whole point of breeding, to improve? Sometimes these things need to be done to ensure a solid future. Rome wasn't built in a day & I'm here for the long haul. Frozen semen is going to be our friend

Yes, I'm a realist & I can see us bottle-necking in a few years, so we do have to plan ahead for that & keep our heads above the sand. Keep our ears & eyes open to what others around us are doing, but it's important to not let others decisions affect your own. For example, you think DogA could really improve what you are doing, but BreederA & B have already used him. They are going to take those matings in a different direction to you, so if you feel DogA is right for you, I'd use him! Some people wont, as 'so & so & so & so' have already used him so we'll have the same lines.

Oh gee, I just rambled, hopefully you can make some sense of what I wrote

[Steve]

No matter where you buy a dog from you need to be very clear about what it is you are hoping to gain from your breeding program and once you do that the answer to your question will be clear.

There's been a lot of talk on genetic diversity and widening gene pools etc and there is no doubt these are important things to consider.If you go looking for a dog which is the best you can find and you have confidence that its healthy and well tempered

if its related is a minor consideration.If your main goal is to widen the gene pool and you go after the best dog you can which isnt related then thats the main thing you go looking for.If you can get the best dog which isnt closely related thats a bonus.

But only you can answer what is going to most important to you or your dogs into the future.If you breed a linebred bitch you can buy semon from anywhere so you need to work out what you want in your foundation.

So identify what you want most then look at what you are not prepared to compromise on to get that and that will tell you what you need to go shopping for.

[sandgrubber]

I opted against Chess's and went with Labbies cause I didn't want to deal with a rare breed .. . and it seems like the heavy oily coat that is common with Chesses makes dogs pretty uncomfortable in Oz unless there's a good soak nearby. Also . . . Chess chat groups seem to confirm that they are headstrong dogs, making pups unsuitable to inexperienced dog owners of softies.

Having said that . . . the most cost effiecient way to deal with genetic diversity in a rare breed is to acquire a sound bitch with good conformation . . . and then go for AI via frozen semen from a complimentary, but not closely-related dog with great health stats, pedigree indicating high heretibility of soundness, and excellent conformation. The semen import will cost you a little less than importing a pup or mature dog, and will, hopefully, result in several pups. Repeat the process a few times and you have a reasonably broad genetic basis for a breed. Cooperation in breeding strategies with others in the same breed will make it a bit cheaper and more effective.

[RallyValley]

It was nice to hear your prospective LuvMyWhiteShep.

I think (from the sounds of things) the idea is to import the best bitch I can, regardless of lines and then use the AI to add diversity.

Sandgrubber- I can't say about the coat yet but Lincoln has not been too headstrong, I agree its not a dog for a first tme dog owner but I like that even as a pup he is more mature then my friends 9yo lab .

[Lowenhart]

I deal with what is an uncommon breed with a limited gene pool and have imported 2 dogs.

My current attitude to Diversity versus Beauty is that Beauty wins out. If I can have both, then I'm in heaven but if I had the choice between importing a dog who will bring only pedigree diversity but is not a dog I like, from parents I do not like OR bringing in a dog who is beautiful in the flesh and has parents I like but is closely related - I choose beautiful.

As it turned out, the most reliable asset a line could possess wasn’t the ability to produce large litters without assistance, live to a ripe old age, or pass a series of health clearances. It was that someone had to want to breed them, and breed to them.

A quote from a 2 part article by Catherine McMillan, centered around her Miniature Schnauzers but also applies to othr breeds. Long term, it is important to have other people WANTING to use your breeding/lines otherwise they are for nothing.

http://www.katewerk.com/designergenes1.pdf

http://www.katewerk.com/designergenes2.pdf

[sandgrubber]

A quote from a 2 part article by Catherine McMillan, centered around her Miniature Schnauzers but also applies to othr breeds. Long term, it is important to have other people WANTING to use your breeding/lines otherwise they are for nothing.

http://www.katewerk.com/designergenes1.pdf

http://www.katewerk.com/designergenes2.pdf

Fantastic, interesting, and well written articles. Thanks for posting them. Not sure that they are relevant to the Chess . . . which so far as I know hasn't been seriously affected by any particular genetic defect and/or witch hunts that seek to totally eliminate a widespread genetic defect . .. but nonetheless, great, well-written articles that make it clear that 'improvement of the breed' can be more complicated than it seems and that over-vigilance in clearing out genetic defects can wreak havoc on a gene pool.

Diversity is not a goal in itself. My breed is common and genetically very diverse. This means that all sorts of problems, ranging from gay tails to unacceptable colouration, to heads that look like some other breed, to curly coats can appear in a litter of pups when you join non-related (or not clearly related) lines. The problem is how to 'narrow' the gene pool without concentrating deleterious genes.

[oakway]

Sorry but the costs involved in importing I would be importing for me not others.

Should some one use the dog with a suitable bitch so be it.

[Lowenhart]

Fantastic, interesting, and well written articles. Thanks for posting them. Not sure that they are relevant to the Chess . . . which so far as I know hasn't been seriously affected by any particular genetic defect and/or witch hunts that seek to totally eliminate a widespread genetic defect . .. but nonetheless, great, well-written articles that make it clear that 'improvement of the breed' can be more complicated than it seems and that over-vigilance in clearing out genetic defects can wreak havoc on a gene pool.

Chess asked the question "Genetic diversity vs. Personal Preferance?" [sick] This article possess the real good point that you can have genetic diversity short term, but it means nothing if the the dogs are not quality and utilised down the track. So it's important to consider the quality of the import and the future impact it will have in the breed.