Lets Talk Progesterone Levels..

[Missymoo]

ok I have a difficult bitch whom Im having tested..

Prog test always confuse the crap out of me....

(dont worry I have a good repo vet but I want to disscuss prog levels and testing so I can understand it all properly!)

She is currently 1.7, vet says we are looking for about 15 to organise chilled semen...about 25 to insert...

I got on the internet to enlighten myself (as you do) and different levels are disscussed...ie 5ng to insert semen...??

Can anyone explain for dummies!

[angelsun]

You numbering system is a bit different here than what I am used to but am thinking it's just a decimal point thing...anyway..I can tell you how I used to interpret my LH levels.

A bitch CAN stall up to 2 and many assume that 1.5 they will progress at the same time frame..not always true...for me, if I was doing a natural mating or a fresh chilled, when the bitch hit 2, I knew to mate five days later, BUT I did another progesterone after they hit 2 so that I knew if they were in deed progressing at the same rate..I have had bitches decide to stall between 2 and 5 so I tend to keep an eye on things. Natural or fresh or chilled AI's at this time, work well and often I need only to do one mating (if natural) although if there is enough in the chilled semen, I will split the amount and do one AI and 12 hours later, insert the remaining.

If I'm doing frozen implant, I wait til they hit 5 and implant 48 hours later, although new science is saying we are rushing now to do that and should be waiting 72 hours after they hit 5. (I'm not sure on that and haven't tried it, so can't comment)

[*Lolapalooza*]

They do Ng/L for USA (and NZ I think). We use Nmol/L....so in USA/NZ they ovulate at 5 ng and we ovulate at 15nmol (times by 3.1 to convert)

LH surge is at 4.5-5.5 nmol

Ovulation is 15-18 nmol

Fertile period is 30-90 nmol

According to Karen Hedberg best time to inseminate with chilled is after 55-60 nmol (18ng in USA) but before 90 nmol (30ng in USA)

I can send you a conversion chart if you like.

[angelsun]

That would be great....sucks to have to learn all this over again!!!

[*Lolapalooza*]

1 nmol/ml 0.314 1 ng/ml 3.18

CONVERSION CONVERSION

nmol/ml--->ng/ml ng/ml---->nmol/ml

0.5 0.16 0.25 0.80

1 0.31 0.5 1.59

1.5 0.47 0.75 2.39

2 0.63 1 3.18

2.5 0.79 1.25 3.98

3 0.94 1.5 4.77

3.5 1.10 1.75 5.57

4 1.26 2 6.36

4.5 1.41 2.25 7.16

5 1.57 2.5 7.95

5.5 1.73 2.75 8.75

6 1.88 3 9.54

6.5 2.04 3.25 10.34

7 2.20 3.5 11.13

7.5 2.36 3.75 11.93

8 2.51 4 12.72

8.5 2.67 4.25 13.52

9 2.83 4.5 14.31

9.5 2.98 4.75 15.11

10 3.14 5 15.90

10.5 3.30 5.25 16.70

11 3.45 5.5 17.49

11.5 3.61 5.75 18.29

12 3.77 6 19.08

12.5 3.93 6.25 19.88

13 4.08 6.5 20.67

13.5 4.24 6.75 21.47

14 4.40 7 22.26

14.5 4.55 7.25 23.06

15 4.71 7.5 23.85

15.5 4.87 7.75 24.65

16 5.02 8 25.44

16.5 5.18 8.25 26.24

17 5.34 8.5 27.03

17.5 5.50 8.75 27.83

18 5.65 9 28.62

18.5 5.81 9.25 29.42

19 5.97 9.5 30.21

19.5 6.12 9.75 31.01

20 6.28 10 31.80

20.5 6.44 10.25 32.60

21 6.59 10.5 33.39

Edited January 26, 2010 by *Lolapalooza*

[angelsun]

Will copy this with some spaces....bit mushed up there....thanks....something to study since I"m not going to the dog show today!

[*Lolapalooza*]

Ok that didnt quite work I did put extra spaces in but stupid computermashed it up again sorry

[sandgrubber]

I think it's more complicated than indicated, as the sensitivity of the reading also needs to be taken into account. I use Applecross Vets, who use St. John of God Laboratory. St John oG has changed their equipment and we're not being told that that much higher prog test numbers are required before we go ahead with mating/insemenation/surgical implantation. I've ended up with 10 pups on a surgical implantation by accepting the advice of the Vet clinic . . . so I am willing to believe what they tell us and not get upset by the very high numbers they're recommending to do the mating/procedure.

[angelsun]

No problem..I just slapped it into a table and it's fine...makes sense as well...thanks again.

[Missymoo]

Ahhh thats the info I was after Lalopalooza!! Everything I brought up on the net was in Angelsuns system, thats why i was like "what?" Appriciate th info both you and Angelsun!

I am useing Dr Micheal Bell so I am pretty sure he will know when!

Awesome info guys! Thanks!

[Alenkit]

Yep I agree. I also use Applecross and had 9 pups from a frozen A.I. (surgical) I was told that what you're looking for is the 'upward surge' (indication the bitch is ovulating) which may be at a different value for different bitches. They told me that one of the most important things was to start prog testing early so that a 'pattern' could be established for that particular bitch. Their reputation is excellent, I did as I was told and the result was there :-) Some one once told me that you can have all the knowledge in the world but that picking that 'just right' moment is also a bit of an art which may account for some vets getting it right a lot of the time ........

Fauvetnoir Belgians

I think it's more complicated than indicated, as the sensitivity of the reading also needs to be taken into account. I use Applecross Vets, who use St. John of God Laboratory. St John oG has changed their equipment and we're not being told that that much higher prog test numbers are required before we go ahead with mating/insemenation/surgical implantation. I've ended up with 10 pups on a surgical implantation by accepting the advice of the Vet clinic . . . so I am willing to believe what they tell us and not get upset by the very high numbers they're recommending to do the mating/procedure.

[angelsun]

They told me that one of the most important things was to start prog testing early so that a 'pattern' could be established for that particular bitch

Absolutely...I try to get a progesterone done on Day 1 if possible to find my "base line" Then I go from there...it seems to work really well. Testing every 4 days until I hit around 2 (my system) then every other day or if she seems to be moving fast, every day and the key I found...was try to get blood drawn the same time each day..it really helps you sort out the numbers better.

[kemulvak]

Can Prog levels go up and down?

My bitch had her first test at 7 days, level 2.2, then at 12 days she was 3.3 Now at 17days she is back down to 2!

Is this a normal season?

She is doing my head in!

Rhonda

[sandgrubber]

That's why they call them bitches.

Not 'normal' . . . but not abnormal. Prog can be both touch and go and stop and go.

Don't be surprised if you bring her back in a few days later and you get a 17.

Can Prog levels go up and down?

My bitch had her first test at 7 days, level 2.2, then at 12 days she was 3.3 Now at 17days she is back down to 2!

Is this a normal season?

She is doing my head in!

Rhonda

[kemulvak]

That's why they call them bitches.

Not 'normal' . . . but not abnormal. Prog can be both touch and go and stop and go.

Don't be surprised if you bring her back in a few days later and you get a 17.

Can Prog levels go up and down?

My bitch had her first test at 7 days, level 2.2, then at 12 days she was 3.3 Now at 17days she is back down to 2!

Is this a normal season?

She is doing my head in!

Rhonda

Thanks for your reply Sandgrubber

My vet told me not to test again unless she starts dripping blood, as she thinks she has gone out of season, but I am inclined to want to test again after a few days just to see what is going on.

Yep, Bitches!!

[Aspyre]

Thanks for your reply Sandgrubber

My vet told me not to test again unless she starts dripping blood, as she thinks she has gone out of season, but I am inclined to want to test again after a few days just to see what is going on.

Yep, Bitches!!

I feel your pain... had them do all sorts of crazy things. I too would be inclined to try again in a few days... just to see where she is at.

Maybe she is on the way out like you vet suggests or maybe she is just trying your patience...