Triangle Of Temptation

[Got Spots]

Hi

I have been working on the triangle now with the 2 dogs for almost a month with great results in their behaviour. Lucy the territorial whippet is much calmer and less dominant towards us.

Bella however, comes to be tethered but when you put the food down she becomes overly submissive toward me. Her sit is a crouch with reluctance to look at me, but not looking at the food usually the floor. Also as you would expect the dog should become more eager to work for food, she has become for relucant and less obediant.

I would expect her to just sit when the command is given - but she doesn't. I had a chicken leg in my hand today and it took 3 goes. I am sure she knows the command. She did the same thing at dinner time, just wouldn't sit for her dinner.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated

[corvus]

Has your body language changed? Do you look her in the eye or use a firm tone when asking her to sit or verbally marking/releasing her? Are you sure she knows what she's being marked for (aside from the sit)? My boy gets a little anxious if he doesn't understand what he has done to gain a reward. Sometimes he just doesn't make the connection because he's not aware of his actions and so getting a reward seems random to him.

If this were my dog, I would stop right now and work on her confidence instead. Looking at the ground like that is big displacement behaviour stuff. Dogs do it when there is too much social tension for them. The last thing you want is your dog feeling tense around you. If it were me, I'd teach her something fun and easy like targeting the back of my hand. It keeps the focus and rewards coming from you, but hopefully takes out whatever stressful element has entered the equation and restore her confidence a bit.

[huski]

Hi Neats

Might be worthwhile posting this in the TOT thread or sending Steve an email - I am sure he will be more than happy to help

[Steve K9Pro]

Hi

I have been working on the triangle now with the 2 dogs for almost a month with great results in their behaviour. Lucy the territorial whippet is much calmer and less dominant towards us.

K9: Thats great news!

Bella however, comes to be tethered but when you put the food down she becomes overly submissive toward me. Her sit is a crouch with reluctance to look at me, but not looking at the food usually the floor. Also as you would expect the dog should become more eager to work for food, she has become for relucant and less obediant.

I would expect her to just sit when the command is given - but she doesn't. I had a chicken leg in my hand today and it took 3 goes. I am sure she knows the command. She did the same thing at dinner time, just wouldn't sit for her dinner.

K9: Ok many times people see a behaviour & may label it incorrectly, whilst lowering if the head & refusing eye contact may be one of submission, it also may be one of dominance, I would love to see a video of this dog if you would email it to me?

The TOT is a very easy program on the dogs if carried out correctly, there is no need to stop it, but perhaps we need to look at how it is being carried out.

Can you tell me, you mentioned that

I have been working on the triangle now with the 2 dogs for almost a month with great results in their behaviour.

Were things going well & then dropped off?

[Got Spots]

No she has always been a very submissive type (I think anyway). She cringes ,tail b/w her legs, won't look at me, and won't obey known commands (very stubborn).

I was intending to send you some vid's of me trying to get her motivated for her toy and of the TOT

On a different note she is much more confident and less nervous about other dogs being around, she actually sniffed another dog the other day ( a large dog), she usually pees and cringes and hides. None of this, not outgoing but better.

As for my other whippet - it has worked wonders with her behaviour.

[corvus]

A cowering dog that doesn't obey commands isn't stubborn. She's overly anxious. You've got to help her want to do it. She won't want to engage with you if she finds it so nerve-wracking that she'd act with extreme submission. You have to improve her confidence with you before you should expect her to do "known" commands.

Maybe it's just me, but this would be a huge issue to me. You'll have trouble doing anything drivey with her in that state. You'll have trouble doing anything at all, as you're discovering. I wouldn't do any real training until she was comfortable looking at me at least. If it were me, I'd be spending the next 3 weeks marking and feeding her every time she makes eye contact. Encouraging her to follow you, keeping eye contact. Things like that. Easy easy stuff she can feel confident about getting right that makes working with you fun.

[Got Spots]

My biggest connundrum is how do you make a dog more confident?????

She will quite happily look at me the rest of the time except in the triangle.

i even started a week of the triangle with just them giving eye contact, she seems to panic at the idea of being tied out which is why i have persisted b/c i want her to be able to be tied

Edited January 26, 2010 by Neats

[corvus]

Ohhh, I see. Sorry, I was getting the impression she was submissive all the time.

This is much easier. Classical conditioning is your friend. You just have to work her up to it. There are some good videos on YouTube about desensitisation, but basically you just need to pop her treats when she's near the tie out. It's best if you start far enough away from it that she's not showing any overt signs of stress. Feed her a tiny bit at a time until she looks more relaxed, then take another step or two closer to the tie out. Repeat until you're next to the tie out, then when she's comfy with that, reach for it, or reward her for sniffing it or looking at it, and hold it, put it near her but not on her... you get the idea. It doesn't usually take very long. Depends on how strong she feels about the tie out.

I think you need to address the stress before you go back to the ToT exercises. If it were me, I wouldn't try the ToT again until she's giving you happy grins around the tie out. Otherwise you risk taking backwards steps. It's not the end of the world if you do, but it's also not the way to build confidence.

ETA Here's an easy to follow video on desensitising:

Edited January 26, 2010 by corvus

[Steve K9Pro]

No she has always been a very submissive type (I think anyway). She cringes ,tail b/w her legs, won't look at me, and won't obey known commands (very stubborn).

I was intending to send you some vid's of me trying to get her motivated for her toy and of the TOT

K9: Yes please do, look forward to them.

On a different note she is much more confident and less nervous about other dogs being around, she actually sniffed another dog the other day ( a large dog), she usually pees and cringes and hides. None of this, not outgoing but better.

As for my other whippet - it has worked wonders with her behaviour.

K9: Ok great lets see some video please.

[Steve K9Pro]

My biggest connundrum is how do you make a dog more confident?????

K9: The tot is a known confidence builder, so it would be great if we can get this working for you.

She will quite happily look at me the rest of the time except in the triangle.

K9: As I said video will tell us a lot, she could be submissive when food is between you & her or rank too, more body language is needed to decide. Ither way it is fixable.

i even started a week of the triangle with just them giving eye contact, she seems to panic at the idea of being tied out which is why i have persisted b/c i want her to be able to be tied

K9: Ok there are a number of reasons for the tie out but, if she wont approach the food without permission, then lose the tie out for now. As long as your not stopping her from taking the food with verbal or physical pressure.