When A Judge Does Not Examine Your Exhibit

[periannath]

I saw this happen recently in the USA at a speciality show under an Aussie judge in a very large class. The competitors screamed blue murder(afterwards) and were talking about re running the show.I have no idea if this would be a possibility.According to other USA judges that were attending other shows at the venue the show regulations state that he had to at least examine the males to make sure that testes were present and correct . The general consensus was that a word from the ring steward would have prevented the problem.

There must be some sort of rule here surely?

[jedi knight]

welcome to the dog show world all i can say is don't stress over it it happens best thing is move on some of the things Ive seen at shows especially when we first started the whole judge thing needs a over haul i think any way i am used to it all now

[sas]

Why does so many people want or more to the point NEED the judge to touch your dog???

Bite? Testicles? Coat texture? Etc.

I much prefer when a judge asks me to show my dogs bite.......too many times I have had experiences and have heard complaints about rough judges or apprehensive judges make dogs uncertain of this.

Testicles are a given.....although to be honest, in some cases its pretty obvious that the dog has 2 testicles of similair size.

Coat texture a brief touch if required for the breed............

Grand total the judge if required has touched your dog for less than 20 seconds........and then only if required!!!!

Not in my breed... the pelt needs to be lifted off the dog's body, the texture must be felt and undercoat checked, bite needs to be examined, head needs to be measured (poor or clever grooming can alter the appearance), pads must be felt for thickness. Ribs need to be spanned (requires lifting the dog's forequarter off the table), tail should be measured.

The smooth is similar- head should be measured (markings can alter perception), tail should be measured, undercoat should be checked etc.

There will always be exceptions for some breeds..................... And you learn something about another breed every day......

I am of course, speaking in regards to "in general".......

and I have to ask ........how often is all that checked/measured in your general all breeds show???

Back pedel, Back Pedel

[dancinbcs]

I have seen this happen several times over the years. It is usually just a lapse in concentration by the judge who thinks they are judging the challenge not a class. All you need to do is politely point out that it is a breed class and that the dogs have not been examined. Just say it loud enough for the judge and steward to hear but not loud enough to embarass the judge. If it is a large show the judge has a lot of classes to judge and occasionally they slip up. They are after all, only human. Most will just laugh, apologise and judge the class correctly. The result may be the same but there is a chance it may not.

Remember dog judges are people not gods. You can talk to them and most won't bite your head off. Don't be afraid to speak up but do it in a polite manner.

[Guest CaptainCourageous]

I have seen this happen several times over the years. It is usually just a lapse in concentration by the judge who thinks they are judging the challenge not a class. All you need to do is politely point out that it is a breed class and that the dogs have not been examined. Just say it loud enough for the judge and steward to hear but not loud enough to embarass the judge. If it is a large show the judge has a lot of classes to judge and occasionally they slip up. They are after all, only human. Most will just laugh, apologise and judge the class correctly. The result may be the same but there is a chance it may not.

Remember dog judges are people not gods. You can talk to them and most won't bite your head off. Don't be afraid to speak up but do it in a polite manner.

Thanks for this post dancinbcs, a refreshingly sensible reply amidst over-reaction. Exhibitors need to be prepared for this before the class is placed, afterwards is too late.

Recently I handed two dogs over to a judge, then turned my back to organise the next class. All of a sudden I found both exhibits out of the ring, with a first place awarded and a newish handler complaining they hadn't been judged. I was cross the exhibits hadn't gone to the placemarkers instead of leaving the ring.

The judge had been assailed by a swarm of mosquitoes and was distracted. She later mentioned to me that the placings would have stood in that order had the physical examination of the second placed dog gone ahead.

CC

[Dogsfevr]

Grand total the judge if required has touched your dog for less than 20 seconds........and then only if required!!!!

They can examine yours for 20 sec but not mine.

[Dogsfevr]

I find Europeans to judge like this.

I have certainly had judges occasionally get frazzled & forget what there judging but that is also partially the stewards fault because they judge should be told what is now happening.

I have had a judge in extreme heat get a tad forgetful & i had no issues with that & being polite & saying what the steward should have,Resulted in an highly embarrassed judge whom i had to reinforce wasnt an issue for me

[SwaY]

Today's judge was weird in what he did in our class.

The open bitches, he didn't mouth or go over them.

Sent them out and back, re-stack then picked his winner

The person behind me even asked what is going on.

[becks]

If this was done in a different way to how he had judged other classes that day, then I would have spoken up in the class to ask if he wanted to go over the dog before placing. If it was the style on the day, I would just have a quiet word with the show secretary that I wouldn't be entering under such a judge ever again.

[Vonasche]

In some breeds there is a big difference between how dogs are judged at a Breed Specialty and the All Breeds Ring.

Rottweiler and GSD Specialists - only touch the dogs for teeth, testicles and coat texture - unless they want to clarify with their hands what their eyes are seeing in regards to faults.

However, if you have a Specialist judge who happens to be judging at an All Breeds Show, they are required to be hands on - because that's what is expected of them as a Judge.

Gerard O'Shea could not understand why such importance was placed on spending so much time going over dogs - being that dogs with constructional faults will show these during movement -(even coated breeds).

Woofenpup, at the barest minimum the judge should have checked teeth and testicles.

[Dogsfevr]

Gerard O'Shea could not understand why such importance was placed on spending so much time going over dogs - being that dogs with constructional faults will show these during movement -(even coated breeds).

But owning coated breeds & those who do also now that coat can make an appearance of faults on the move so time must be spent to go over & ensure what you see is correct .

Coats that are a marked differently & even certain markings can change the who perceived visual & one must make an effort to make sure its a fault or not.

Go watch coated breeds & you will be amazed at what you see & how fooled one can be without touching

[SpikesPuppy]

Gerard O'Shea could not understand why such importance was placed on spending so much time going over dogs - being that dogs with constructional faults will show these during movement -(even coated breeds).

But owning coated breeds & those who do also now that coat can make an appearance of faults on the move so time must be spent to go over & ensure what you see is correct .

Coats that are a marked differently & even certain markings can change the who perceived visual & one must make an effort to make sure its a fault or not.

Go watch coated breeds & you will be amazed at what you see & how fooled one can be without touching

I have always wondered if you shaved some of the top winning coated breeds how 'perfect' their actual conformation was Not that I'm doubting them... I just think it would be interesting.

Speed at which dogs are moved can also hide or exacerbate faults.

I imagine that Rottweiler & GSD specialists are very passionate about their breed and know the ins and outs of what makes a perfect GSD or Rott, but all breeds/group judges are NOT specialists in many of the breeds they end up judging and IMO can be easily swayed by flashy coat or eyecatching movement, but if they took a moment to touch the dog they could find structural faults which may alter their decison.

[capanash]

A few years ago at a Melbourne Royal, we had a judge for our breed who did not examine the dogs. He looked at bites, moved the dogs and that was it. We asked fellow exhibitors about this and were told that it was not uncommon with international judges and that "if a dog moves correctly, it must be put together correctly". At the time, we were fairly new to showing, our first conformation dog, and didn't know we could ask the steward about this.

In our breed, you can hide faults with grooming and we always expect a judge to feel under the coat and look at mouths.

[Dogsfevr]

I have always wondered if you shaved some of the top winning coated breeds how 'perfect' their actual conformation was biggrin.gif Not that I'm doubting them... I just think it would be interesting.

I remember a lecture by setter specialists who always emphasised the gordon needed more attention on touch before focusing on movement.

For example like the rottie/dobe the tan markings are.t always evenly marked & this can create an illusion of all sorts .

This also applies to Black/Silver mini schnauzers,markings can be an evil thing

Shelties with one solid leg/white other all can make you see things that aren.t there.

Springers with solid coloured r backs can look longer than a broken colour .

What the eye see,s doent mean its true

In many tri colours the 3 coat colour's cab be different textures & again can make a topline look off when its the colour not sitting tightly together,good grooming can fix this but many have no clue that coat is one texture .

When i showed yanks we always with the other exhibitors took clipped off good/bad dogs because many where surprised how much off a dog was underneath ,would would also try & match clipped off with colour especially like Black /tan.

guess its also like clown faced whippets/greys etc etc,some find it very hard to determine if the head is correct or is it the markings

[SpikesPuppy]

In Borders, the muzzle breadth should be felt- there are some very snipey muzzles carefully hidden with profuse furnishings ;) Likewise, my bitch has a deeper stop than I would like, so I carefully groom the hair so it appears smooth and sloping. However a judge who knows their stuff will feel for the correct depth. Have had a critique which mentioned something about a perfect stop.... I know exactly how carefully that judge looked :D

Tail length also- some new exhibitors especially don't groom the end, and can leave upto an inch of hair after the bone, giving the impression of a long tail when in fact it's quite correct. Tail thickness is also important, and is another MUST to feel, if it's not thick, it's useless as a handle?????

I find Collies & Shelties with wide blazes look slightly off in the face, wheras mum's smooth bitch who has a tiny strip of white, I think looks a little too narrow- I would still like a little bigger head BUT the proportions are correct and when you feel it, it is, IMO, correct. Ness also has a very nice (IMO) shoulder, but on her show side, her white markings make it look very straight, wheras, on the off side it looks perfect LOL.

Profuse coat on the rump of a dog can also give the impression of being bum-high, but if the judge feels that it's only hair, they can make a more informed decision.

So many reasons why touching the dogs are important IMO.

[ellz]

Many breeds can be sculpted into something pretty spectacular by a good groomer and/or handler. The "hands on" can be somewhat disappointing.

Testicles can't always be seen and it shouldn't always be assumed that every dog in the ring has two....up until 6 months of age, they don't both need to be present.

And look at it this way.....if a judge did not do a hands-on examination of the appropriate kind in their judges examinations, they wouldn't pass. It's as simple as that.

[Dogsfevr]

Many breeds can be sculpted into something pretty spectacular by a good groomer and/or handler. The "hands on" can be somewhat disappointing.

The problem is also the judges that dont want to disturb that great grooming LOL

Like the grooming has intimidated them

[ellz]

Many breeds can be sculpted into something pretty spectacular by a good groomer and/or handler. The "hands on" can be somewhat disappointing.

The problem is also the judges that dont want to disturb that great grooming LOL ;)

Like the grooming has intimidated them

Nah, it's not the grooming....it's the thought of the Glomesh bags coming at them if they dare disturb the hair!!!

[SparkyTansy]

Many breeds can be sculpted into something pretty spectacular by a good groomer and/or handler. The "hands on" can be somewhat disappointing.

The problem is also the judges that dont want to disturb that great grooming LOL

Like the grooming has intimidated them

showdog this is exactly right I have found this to be an issue in OES. the OES profuse coat means you can only see so much during movement. YOu can see correct movement yes but sometimes grooming in all the right places causes an illusion on the move. any judge that doesn't go over my OES except to lightly touch the coat I don't enter under again regardless of their placing. I have had it happen several times wehre they are too afraid to flatten the coat but to be honest the flatter the coat when i come out the ring the happier i am at least i know they went over the dog properly!!

Edited January 25, 2010 by SparkyTansy

[mersonmalinois]

Another way to look at the importance of hands-on exam is that many handlers move their dogs poorly/incorrectly and they can make a good structured dog look like a piece of crap. Poor handlers may move too slow, too fast, jerk the dog off its feet/stride, let the dog weave all over the place, etc and that destroys a dog completely.

Hands-on exams are also good for finding fixed ears, hair pieces and illegal substances (coloured chalks, etc.)

Edited January 25, 2010 by mersonmalinois