Question Re: Puppy Numbers

[puggy_puggy]

26 at once. How could you possibly look after them all.

[SpikesPuppy]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

[Nevafollo]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

Easy to home, yes, But finding 26 GOOD homes, its gotta be hard hasnt it? I was speaking to my boss recently (she was a dane breeder) one reason she gave up was because it was way too hard to find decent good homes.

[Crisovar]

Pugs are pretty popular, and to get a pup from most breeders you have quite a wait, so I'm thinking if they are bred carefully raised properly and the right homes are found for them then maybe as Spikespuppy says they would be a better option for pets than pet shop pups.

If you are organised and have a good routine caring properly for a large number of pups for the relatively short time that you have them isn't impossible.

I wouldn't judge simply on numbers.

[SpikesPuppy]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

Easy to home, yes, But finding 26 GOOD homes, its gotta be hard hasnt it? I was speaking to my boss recently (she was a dane breeder) one reason she gave up was because it was way too hard to find decent good homes.

But Danes have large litters and are very large dogs requiring special care (slow growing, large enough house & car, finances to feed/medicate the dog, ability to deal with a short lifespan etc). I wouldn't have thought homing Danes & pugs would really be comparable?

I'm not saying people should be breeding so many dogs but it could be worse and theoretically, if the breeder is otherwise ethical and responsible, it's 26 pedigree Pugs getting homes instead of the puppy farmed ones.

[Crisovar]

We are being conditioned to believe that breeding on any sort of large scale is bad, and that breeding to provide people with healthy well bred pets is bad.

When I was younger there were many large kennels around that bred quite a few pups every year and the breeders were well respected and their stock greatly sort after. Now days if you own more than 3/4 dogs you almost feel the need to avoid the "how many dogs do you have" question.

I remember visiting a lovely breeder years ago who hated the show scene with a passion, she did not show her dogs, yet she attended every specialty show and most of the big winners had her dogs behind them. Today she would be shunned, back then we sat around her and learned much about the breed she loved. Her knowledge of the breed was amazing, and she was not alone.

People are looking for purebred pups, they do not want to wait for 2 years for a puppy.

We cannot slam puppy farms, slam byb pups in pet shops, and yet fail to come up with the pups that the general public is after, and cry foul when they buy from these places.

It is possible to raise happy healthy pups more than one litter at a time, it is possible to breed to the standard and do all the health checks and not be out belting around the ring every weekend, it is possible and it is possible to sell these pups responsibly as well.

There is no crime in being a Breeder and doing it well.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Crisovar

[Nevafollo]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

Easy to home, yes, But finding 26 GOOD homes, its gotta be hard hasnt it? I was speaking to my boss recently (she was a dane breeder) one reason she gave up was because it was way too hard to find decent good homes.

But Danes have large litters and are very large dogs requiring special care (slow growing, large enough house & car, finances to feed/medicate the dog, ability to deal with a short lifespan etc). I wouldn't have thought homing Danes & pugs would really be comparable?

I'm not saying people should be breeding so many dogs but it could be worse and theoretically, if the breeder is otherwise ethical and responsible, it's 26 pedigree Pugs getting homes instead of the puppy farmed ones.

Well, the care is not comparable (althou pugs do have special needs to, after all they are a brachy breed) but finding good homes for a large litter of danes vs find 26 pug good homes I think is comparable. I dont think it matters what breed it is I get the impression that finding good homes isnt easy.

I get your point thou, but how do we know they are good breeders breeding health pugs, there are some dodgey buggars out there that are doing NOTHING for the breed, so yes 26 babies at once worries me. There is maybe two breeders I know of (in nsw) who occasionally have that many pups and whilst I dont like the idea they definately do a good job at breeding and raising their pups, so if it is one of those (or someone similar) then yes it is good that they are filling the market with good pups and hopefully people who are looking at Pet shop puppies are heading to these types of people especially seeings breeders like these guys would be able to help out the people that ned a pup right away, you know the impatient ones.

ETA Apologies if im not making alot of sence, Im a tad tired tonight!

Edited January 23, 2010 by sammy_ballerina

[SpikesPuppy]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

Easy to home, yes, But finding 26 GOOD homes, its gotta be hard hasnt it? I was speaking to my boss recently (she was a dane breeder) one reason she gave up was because it was way too hard to find decent good homes.

But Danes have large litters and are very large dogs requiring special care (slow growing, large enough house & car, finances to feed/medicate the dog, ability to deal with a short lifespan etc). I wouldn't have thought homing Danes & pugs would really be comparable?

I'm not saying people should be breeding so many dogs but it could be worse and theoretically, if the breeder is otherwise ethical and responsible, it's 26 pedigree Pugs getting homes instead of the puppy farmed ones.

Well, the care is not comparable (althou pugs do have special needs to, after all they are a brachy breed) but finding good homes for a large litter of danes vs find 26 pug good homes I think is comparable. I dont think it matters what breed it is I get the impression that finding good homes isnt easy.

I get your point thou, but how do we know they are good breeders breeding health pugs, there are some dodgey buggars out there that are doing NOTHING for the breed, so yes 26 babies at once worries me. There is maybe two breeders I know of who may occasionally have that many pups and whilst I dont like the idea they definately do a good job at breeding and raising their pups, so if it is one of those (or someone similar) then I guess people purchasing from them is better than purchasing from a pet shop.

I know we don't know if the breeder is a good one or not, but at the same time we have no proof that they are 'dodgey' either

I don't think that 26 responsible homes (possibly reducing that by a few if the breeder was keeping one or two??) would be that difficult to find expecially if willing to freight.

[Nevafollo]

Are Pugs still popular/easy to home? I guess if the homes are there and the bitches are bred carefully and everything is done 'right' then it's not the worst thing in the World? At least puppy buyers would be getting healthy, well bred Pugs rather than pet shop crap?

Easy to home, yes, But finding 26 GOOD homes, its gotta be hard hasnt it? I was speaking to my boss recently (she was a dane breeder) one reason she gave up was because it was way too hard to find decent good homes.

But Danes have large litters and are very large dogs requiring special care (slow growing, large enough house & car, finances to feed/medicate the dog, ability to deal with a short lifespan etc). I wouldn't have thought homing Danes & pugs would really be comparable?

I'm not saying people should be breeding so many dogs but it could be worse and theoretically, if the breeder is otherwise ethical and responsible, it's 26 pedigree Pugs getting homes instead of the puppy farmed ones.

Well, the care is not comparable (althou pugs do have special needs to, after all they are a brachy breed) but finding good homes for a large litter of danes vs find 26 pug good homes I think is comparable. I dont think it matters what breed it is I get the impression that finding good homes isnt easy.

I get your point thou, but how do we know they are good breeders breeding health pugs, there are some dodgey buggars out there that are doing NOTHING for the breed, so yes 26 babies at once worries me. There is maybe two breeders I know of who may occasionally have that many pups and whilst I dont like the idea they definately do a good job at breeding and raising their pups, so if it is one of those (or someone similar) then I guess people purchasing from them is better than purchasing from a pet shop.

I know we don't know if the breeder is a good one or not, but at the same time we have no proof that they are 'dodgey' either

I don't think that 26 responsible homes (possibly reducing that by a few if the breeder was keeping one or two??) would be that difficult to find expecially if willing to freight.

Fair enough agree to disagree then

[Snout Girl]

I'm sorry I dont know how many bitches the puppies were from, or if she is well known in the show scene

i do know that most (if not all) of the puppies were for pet homes.

[Steve]

Most puppies go to pet homes anyway and one breeder finding 26 good homes for their pups isnt a hard ask for pugs.

Whether they show or not doesnt count them out and in my opinion judging someone as doing the right thing by whether or not they show their dogs doesnt take into account the variables either.

[Snout Girl]

Most puppies go to pet homes anyway and one breeder finding 26 good homes for their pups isnt a hard ask for pugs.

Whether they show or not doesnt count them out and in my opinion judging someone as doing the right thing by whether or not they show their dogs doesnt take into account the variables either.

hi steve

i dont know if they are doing the right, or wrong thing, not for me to judge, i dont have any experience in breeding and all that in entails.

i also dont know if she shows or not, tho i have a feeling she does, not that is relevant to my original quesiton.

i asked as i explained, we are looking at adding anopther pug to our family in the next 2 years and was doing some research on breeders. when this came up i was unsure whether it was a red flag or not to avoid the breeder, but i am realising that it depends on so many variables that it is impossible to have a yes or no answer without detailing the breeder and other information, which i am not prepared to do.

but thanks for your input, everyone's replies have given me a bit to think about, so i can make the best choice for my family when the time for pug number 2 rolls around!

[Steve]

Most puppies go to pet homes anyway and one breeder finding 26 good homes for their pups isnt a hard ask for pugs.

Whether they show or not doesnt count them out and in my opinion judging someone as doing the right thing by whether or not they show their dogs doesnt take into account the variables either.

hi steve

i dont know if they are doing the right, or wrong thing, not for me to judge, i dont have any experience in breeding and all that in entails.

i also dont know if she shows or not, tho i have a feeling she does, not that is relevant to my original quesiton.

i asked as i explained, we are looking at adding anopther pug to our family in the next 2 years and was doing some research on breeders. when this came up i was unsure whether it was a red flag or not to avoid the breeder, but i am realising that it depends on so many variables that it is impossible to have a yes or no answer without detailing the breeder and other information, which i am not prepared to do.

but thanks for your input, everyone's replies have given me a bit to think about, so i can make the best choice for my family when the time for pug number 2 rolls around!

There are some questions you can ask to narrow down the field.

You need to know why they bred these dogs and what they were aiming for with their litter - the answer isnt really important - it could be a hundred different reasons but you also need to know what they were prepared to compromise on to get to that goal.

For example someone who is breeding for the pet market needs to understand that they have to consider and look after the breed standard too even though they arent aiming for a champ. If they dont over a couple of litters the dogs look like mutts and their management issues change.

If they were aiming for a dog to keep for the ring then you need to know they havent compromised on other things in aiming for that goal too.

You need to know why they chose the pairs they did, you want to hear mentions of health and temperament as well as conformation.What they were fed during the pregnancy and while feeding and what the foods will be the pups are raised on.The quality of the diet and the breeders knowledge on nutritional needs for their dogs can speak volumes of their care and health of their dogs.Ask them what their biggest challenges are inbreeding their breed and what they do about that.

Where they are raised is a huge issue too. You want to hear they are handled and loved ,that they are exposed to sights and sounds in a normal household like flushing toilets , vacumns cleaners TVs etc.You also want to know they have been able to leave their nest to utilise their natural instinct for cleanliness rather than be locked into a whelping box where they have to poo where they sleep.

You want to know what the breeders expectaton of you is when you walk away with the pup.Do they want to get updates and stay in touch - be there if something goes wrong to support you.

[dancinbcs]

To me 26 small breed puppies at one time = puppy farmer, unless by some freak of nature this was only from 3 litters.(Possible but unlikely in Pugs) You cannot determine numbers in a litter and many breeders breed 2 or three litters together to get all the breeding for the year done in one hit. Pugs are a high care breed for whelping and puppy rearing so need lots of time and attention from the breeder. Whelping more than three at a time would not allow time for this specail care.

Also with that many puppies how could anyone spend individual one on one time with them. I have all my puppies started on basic obedience, lead traing, crate training, car travel, household noises, grooming and toilet training before they leave. Most of the problems raised on the puppy forum here would never occur if other breeders did what I and many of my friends do. This is what being a good breeder should entail. It all takes considerable time and cannot be done with large numbers.

I don't believe any one kennel should need to breed any more than 3 to 6 litters per year at the absolute most and less for large/giant breeds.

The reason for breeding purebreds should be to improve the breed not to supply the pet market for profit. There are thousands of dogs that are put down each year because there are no homes for them. Flooding the market with large numbers of pet puppies does not help the situation. The other problem with large numbers is that they tend to get sold to anyone who comes up with the cash because they can't afford to pick and choose buyers if they have a lot of puppies to sell.

I will agree to disagree with many of the comments on here.

[JulesP]

From what I have read about pugs and breeding I am amazed someone managed that many pups! They don't appear to be very easy breeders. Lots of sad stories on the breeders forum anyhow.

[BJean]

I don't believe any one kennel should need to breed any more than 3 to 6 litters per year at the absolute most and less for large/giant breeds.

How many litters per year do you recommend for large/giant breeeds?

and why is there a difference?

[Crisovar]

To me 26 small breed puppies at one time = puppy farmer, unless by some freak of nature this was only from 3 litters.(Possible but unlikely in Pugs) You cannot determine numbers in a litter and many breeders breed 2 or three litters together to get all the breeding for the year done in one hit. Pugs are a high care breed for whelping and puppy rearing so need lots of time and attention from the breeder. Whelping more than three at a time would not allow time for this specail care.

Also with that many puppies how could anyone spend individual one on one time with them. I have all my puppies started on basic obedience, lead traing, crate training, car travel, household noises, grooming and toilet training before they leave. Most of the problems raised on the puppy forum here would never occur if other breeders did what I and many of my friends do. This is what being a good breeder should entail. It all takes considerable time and cannot be done with large numbers.

I don't believe any one kennel should need to breed any more than 3 to 6 litters per year at the absolute most and less for large/giant breeds.

The reason for breeding purebreds should be to improve the breed not to supply the pet market for profit. There are thousands of dogs that are put down each year because there are no homes for them. Flooding the market with large numbers of pet puppies does not help the situation. The other problem with large numbers is that they tend to get sold to anyone who comes up with the cash because they can't afford to pick and choose buyers if they have a lot of puppies to sell.

I will agree to disagree with many of the comments on here.

There are thousands of dogs put down each year, but they are not not well bred purebred pups.

Our pound puts down lots of dogs, generally they are medium to large crossbreed dogs mostly working dog mix or staffy mix. Purebreeds that we see are mostly Sibes or Staffys.

Every day people ring looking for pups, they want purebred pups and they cannot find them, many are repeat buyers looking to replace a much loved old dog that has passed and they are finding it difficult to buy a pup,

Should people wanting a quality pet have to go to the pet shop.

Some breeds there may be a lot of pets available from breeders litters, but in a lot of breeds the waiting time for a well bred pup is very long.

[centitout]

Pugs are pretty popular, and to get a pup from most breeders you have quite a wait, so I'm thinking if they are bred carefully raised properly and the right homes are found for them then maybe as Spikespuppy says they would be a better option for pets than pet shop pups.

If you are organised and have a good routine caring properly for a large number of pups for the relatively short time that you have them isn't impossible.

I wouldn't judge simply on numbers.

I had 2 litters together totalling 26 pups 3 years ago,and i would have had 21 this time except we lost 1/2 a litter.

It is a huge amount of time/money involved-it comes back to one thing-ROUTINE/ORGANISATION.

I also have 4 children and worked as well,it can be done.

[centitout]

Oh,forgot to add,i bred 3 litters this year( total24 puppies,most went to people that have been waiting 12 mths -2yrs).I wanted to pick 2 to trail,1 as a back up for the other,or if one didnt turn out(which happened).Ialso wanted to get 1 or 2 in the ring,and you cant always have the one with show dog looks that can go in the ring in the morning and trail that afternoon.I wanted a specific purpose for those dogs.

I have 2 to show now from one litter,one is going o/s specifically for trailing,one has gone to another breeder for trailing and i will also be doing endurance with my trailer when he is old enough.

I had literally hundreds of enquiries with minimal advertising for these litters(one or two adds months before i planned the litters) so i was able to pick and choose owners,advise others why the breed wasnt for them etc and i have done it before where i have held pups for a long time until a suitable owner is there,so i would have done that again.

So does that make me a puppy farmer?

i spend hours and hours with my pups,4 am starts when i am working,finishing most often around 9 at night,they are out of the whelping box at 3 weeks ,they are brought inside regularly,exposed to lawnmowers/chainsaws,cars,people,and i will do basic lead training with ones here past 8 weeks.

I have a friend with one of mine (11 mth old desexed male) who is having trouble now with him as he is going through that lovely teenage stage,he has forgotten how to lead nicely etc,so i am driving 300 kms round trip once a week for a few weeks to do one on one training.

But i must be a puppy farmer right,as i havent been in the show ring for the last 3 years and have produced a large number of pups(according to some on here?)