Cross Breeds- Breeding?

[Steve]

The only issue here is that if one group has rights then all groups have rights.

If the tables were turned and the gardener and the current pressure escalates what do we do if they say no one can breed purebreds/ Its a rights issue. Full stop.

[Jed]

The short answer is I can't see much point. There's a purebred which is close enough to a designer mutt for someone to be happy.

I don't much care what people breed, what I object to now with designer mutts is the untrue hyperbole, lack of care in homing the pups, and the way the dogs are kept.

But as far as them being bred - I care about as much as I care about beagles or dalmatons being bred. Don't even think about it.

Objectively, crossing dissimilar breeds generally leads to one type of disaster or another --- wry or parrot mouths, unsuitable tooth placement, two coat types on one dog, body and drive of one type, and legs and brain of another. All too problematical, and should only be attempted by those with a wonderful store of knowledge. Unfortunately, the people who seem to embark on this have no knowledge. That's why they think it is great.

I think we, and our dogs, would be very much better if there were purebreds, and the sort of crossbreds there used to be - from accidental litters, very cheap, not planned, and quite often delightful little dogs with no ancestry, and if they had a health problem, so what, they were free, right? And they tended to be true crossbreds, with no pretensions to a purebred parent. And people who took them knew the mother, or the father, and the dog itself was a bit of a lucky dip, and everyone accepted that.

The main reason why the abbadabbadoo registry (for designer mutts) never gets off the ground, despite years of trying, is that almost all the people who breed designer mutts don't want a registry, or regulations, they want to do whatever they like, without any rules or regulations.

Total regulation and legalisation of pedigree dogs will see breeders leave in droves - even thought most of us are used to regulations, and most are happy to abide by the COE - and probably go further than the code, but each of us likes to do our breeding our way, even though that is within a framework approved by the CCs. When we stuff up, we have only ourselves to blame, and we don't do it again, and we tell our friends not to do it either. Once the government wants to regulate and tell breeders what to do, they will say "Two to the Valley" and go.

To try to regulate or legislate the previously unregulated will, I think, be impossible. Added is the fact that a lot of designer mutt breeders would not pass a council inspection.

I also think if the following breeds were available and promoted, people would choose them as an alternative to oddles.

Poodles with a bad ass haircut

Bichon

Havanese

Chinese Crested (Powderpuff)

Spinone

Lagotto

Portugese Water Dog

Irish Water Spaniel

(and probably another 6 breeds I've forgotten )

Look at them, there is an oodle which looks like every one of the dogs above.

But, then we get back to the problem of there not being sufficient, and the fact that registered breeders are going to interrogate the buyers, and not sell over the internet by credit card, so some buyers would be disappointed.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Jed

[Guest Kate_Summer]

The only issue here is that if one group has rights then all groups have rights.

If the tables were turned and the gardener and the current pressure escalates what do we do if they say no one can breed purebreds/ Its a rights issue. Full stop.

Well I read somewhere that council only allows those with a permit (or whatever they called it) to breeding, so they have the right so long that they are legit within their own council...I would have to try & find the article, but remember finding it quite interesting considering the amount of pups popping out every where. Eta & kittens.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Kate_Summer

[Steve]

The only issue here is that if one group has rights then all groups have rights.

If the tables were turned and the gardener and the current pressure escalates what do we do if they say no one can breed purebreds/ Its a rights issue. Full stop.

Well I read somewhere that council only allows those with a permit (or whatever they called it) to breeding, so they have the right so long that they are legit within their own council...I would have to try & find the article, but remember finding it quite interesting considering the amount of pups popping out every where.

Queensland doesnt discrimminate. All breeders are treated equally.

[Guest Kate_Summer]

The only issue here is that if one group has rights then all groups have rights.

If the tables were turned and the gardener and the current pressure escalates what do we do if they say no one can breed purebreds/ Its a rights issue. Full stop.

Well I read somewhere that council only allows those with a permit (or whatever they called it) to breeding, so they have the right so long that they are legit within their own council...I would have to try & find the article, but remember finding it quite interesting considering the amount of pups popping out every where.

Queensland doesnt discrimminate. All breeders are treated equally.

All legit within the laws, yes.

[Bulldust]

I wish designer crossbreeders would just get it through their thick heads, if no-one bred purebreds, then there would be nothing to cross breed with.. why do they take 2 breeds who have been bred (sometimes) for hundreds of years and think its then ok to undo all that by x breeding

[moosmum]

I don't see a problem with it if it is done ethicaly,with compatible strains,for a specific purpose,and with the welfare of resulting pups of prime concern.

If done intentionaly,it should be with thoughful consideration.

Most breeds were originaly developed for their own specific purposes from cross breeds,some quite recently,and this should be remembered.

Many pure breeds have been bred away from their original purposes enough that "Working traits" can not be relied on.

As an example the Inuit people likely have little faith in say,a sledding breed bred in Australia over their unregistered native stock,bred back to wolves every few generations.They may well find a cross between a Siberian husky and a Malamute useful,and who are we to try to deny that right because their dogs are not registered?

Its a closed and narrow mind who thinks the pure,registered breeds in exsistence today can be all we are ever going to need for the gene pool potential of dogs in general,but I agree this is not the place to debate this.

Anyone responding in favour,no matter how sound their arguments,is setting themselves up for a hard time here.

I admire and respect the registered breeders here who work hard and knowledably to improve their breeds,yet other view points are not wecome and sadly,are often seen as attacks.

[GeckoTree]

I think there are more than enough purebreeds in the world to keep every one happy, and if someone doesnt like the way the particular purebreed has gone, dont give up on it, fix it.

X breeds will be around for ever, stray mutts shagging stray mutts will all ways occur No need to diliberatly create them.

[Cosmolo]

I only asked the question because of comments from Steve and Lilli about a person's right to cross breed. Its not the impression i have ever received from this forum so i was surprised to see the comments and wanted to see what other DOLers thought.

If Troy thinks its inappropriate, i'm happy for him to delete.

[JulesP]

We might all think that there are current purebreds that will do but unfortunately the people buying them do not agree.

[Steve]

I only asked the question because of comments from Steve and Lilli about a person's right to cross breed. Its not the impression i have ever received from this forum so i was surprised to see the comments and wanted to see what other DOLers thought.

If Troy thinks its inappropriate, i'm happy for him to delete.

I guess considering the group I belong to that me having that view might surprise a lot of people but for me its a rights issue.

I dont like it,I think its a dumb thing to do but its their right to breed cross breds and its a persons right to want one and own one and not have to treat it differently because its not a purebred.

[Cosmolo]

It did suprise me Steve hence the question but i hope you dont think i am having a go at you as i think your opinion is really valid

[Steve]

No I like it.Gives us a chance to look at the issues.

[WoofnHoof]

The problem there is that the concept of rights and the concept of welfare are two very different things, more and more someone's perception of their 'right to breed' will clash with someone else's perception of the right of animals to have 'good welfare', not to mention the concept of 'animal rights' which of course is even murkier.

I think the welfare of the animals should always take precedence over someone's right to breed them, however defining 'welfare' and setting boundaries is the difficult part, I do think the boundaries need to be set and will be set and it is only a matter of the when and the how.

[Steve]

The problem there is that the concept of rights and the concept of welfare are two very different things, more and more someone's perception of their 'right to breed' will clash with someone else's perception of the right of animals to have 'good welfare', not to mention the concept of 'animal rights' which of course is even murkier.

I think the welfare of the animals should always take precedence over someone's right to breed them, however defining 'welfare' and setting boundaries is the difficult part, I do think the boundaries need to be set and will be set and it is only a matter of the when and the how.

The boundaries are already set. There are state laws and Prevention of cruelty to animals laws which control breeders much more than any Canine Council does which relate to everyone who breeds a dog. All they have to do is educate people and enforce them.

Purebred breeders can be just as rotten as cross bred breeders if they are that way inclined.

[Casima]

I think there needs to be more purpose to the x breeding than selling pet puppies, no matter how responsibly x breds are bred and sold. Especially people just out to make F1 crosses purely for the pet market. As like others have said there are alot of pure breeds in Australia and there really is a pure bred dog somewhere that would fit really well with whoever has their eyes on an oodle for a pet if they only did a bit more research and learnt of some rarer breeds.

Although I must admit, those people in the US who are breeding silken windhounds had a good point when they decided to make a smaller coated sighthound as there isn't one currently, they seem to be very responsible and if they were over here I would be very tempted

Otherwise, if the breeder of x breds is producing a better working dog for whatever purpose than any purebred is for that job with a look to the future and either improving their dogs lines or makeing a whole new breed, as long as they are being responsible then I don't have a problem with that either.

[Cosmolo]

Why isn't being a pet a good enough purpose?

[Trisven13]

I think this is in violation of the forum rules.........

no - it isn't promoting cross breeds at all.

Cosmolo -= if they were doing these things and making intelligent crosses (ie working towards a standard, compatible breeds, bred for a real reason etc) then I wouldn't have a problem with them. That is how most breeds today have been developed.

I agree with this.

Why isn't being a pet a good enough purpose?

I think it is a perfect purpose and is the purpose behind a number of animals in existence today.

If there was a way to force people breeding puppies of any heritage (designer, backyard mutt or pedigree) to have a degree of responsibility for each of those puppies then I would be very happy. Sadly there isn't a way to enforce that.

[nabs]

The majority of dogs that end up in pounds etc are X breeds. Why do we want more? We cannot adequately care for the ones already.

[Trisven13]

I thought some more and felt it was only fair to come back in here and say that I would be mightily POed if I found someone was breeding Fauve mixes. I think that once you develop a real love and passion for a breed and want to see it preserved and improved on you can understand the passion others hold about breeding pedigree dogs. I definitely didn't used to "get it" quite like I do now.

For me a huge part of responsible breeding is doing all you can to ensure that you are breeding from physically and temperamentally healthy dogs in order to improve on them. You should care about how they are at 6 months, 6 years & 16 years. You should want to pick them up if they're surrendered to a pound. You should just care..... Some people can breed a litter of backyard mutts and give a damn - some can breed a litter of pedigree dogs and care only about the money in their wallet. We all know that there is more to being a good breeder than being registered.