Cross Breeds- Breeding?

[Muttaburra]

but the OP asked the question if cross-breeders did all the "right" things (trying to breed true to type, health testing etc) would everyone still be against it?

That is the question being asked, not "how do we all feel about those puppy farmers churning out dd's for profit?".

If they were trying to breed true to type then they would be developing a new breed of dog, and only very advanced breeders should ever attempt this.

And it should only be done for a very good reason, since in the development of a breed, the rationale should be along the lines of developing a dog with unique attributes that does not already exist in the purebred world, in the process there are many dogs rejected, culled, dumped, or sent to a pet shop.

[SpikesPuppy]

Responsible, ethical breeders whould IMO be able to breed for the pet market if they so wish. I really don't buy this breeding to improve the breed bullshit. I am not suggesting we should breed crap BUT why can't people ethically provide healthy, conformationally sound & temperamented pets that will grow to a certain size, have a predictable coat type and so on???

As others said- it's the want it now attitude. People are impatient (and that doesn't always make them bad owners either). And really, who wants to commit to a puppy 6 months before it's born? Who knows exactly where they will BE in six months???

With my litter, I had a 'full' waiting list more than 6 months ago. When the pregnancy was confirmed in December, most of the people either didn't reply, had got another dog or their circumstances had changed. Only ONE family from my original list is now getting a puppy.

I am also not suggesting that bitches should be constantly bred or that breeders HAVE TO keep providing puppies, but why is it such a NO-NO when a registered breeder breeds a litter to satisfy their responsible pet puppy buyers??? Yes, I am aware it goes against the ANKC code of ethics but is the code of ethics really going to save the Pedigree Dog???

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

I have been reading this thread with interest all 13 pages , I own both pure and cross bred dogs and have done all my life , my crosses are rescues and my pures from registered breeders , although my pures are true to type , with a temps within a predictable range the true advantage to me is that I can find a puppy that I like , both pure and cross

I feel that all of my dogs are equal , all get the same training , vet care , attention and diet , they are dogs !

I would be sad to see the range of sizes shapes and abilities lost from australia as well as working hunting and herding lines that (particularly working Kelpies the bench animal now has little resemblance to a working stock dog in confirmation because of restriction of breeding on non CC registered dogs , these animals are far to important to loose .

the loss also of breeds that may have a bad rep , I love my rotties and they would be sadly one of the breeds that we would be deprived of , too big , to scary , to expensive to feed , hard to handle when untrained and lacking in attention not a Suitable Pet Breed

X breeds were always when I was young to create a working dog of particular type ( always the same type herding x herding ) or Opps my bitch was gotten to not for financial gain , can we look at outlawing greedy unethical dishonest people , not the dogs x breeds and pures will all be affected if we let it , if we dont stand firm on peoples right to breed healthy stable dogs .

Would you like the designer dog of the future , minimal shed , small to mid size sharp nose dark coat and no working or prey drive does not bark or talk "perfect for you family "

I defend the right of all breeders with forsight ,vision , ethics and a true love for their dogs and all dogs to breed , remember that working kelpies are NOT CC registered dogs , But this is a true breed and has kept type for many years

[Kelpie-i]

would be sad to see the range of sizes shapes and abilities lost from australia as well as working hunting and herding lines that (particularly working Kelpies the bench animal now has little resemblance to a working stock dog in confirmation because of restriction of breeding on non CC registered dogs , these animals are far to important to loose .

I defend the right of all breeders with forsight ,vision , ethics and a true love for their dogs and all dogs to breed , remember that working kelpies are NOT CC registered dogs , But this is a true breed and has kept type for many years

Aaah, a person after my own heart......I WUV YOOO

[poodlefan]

would be sad to see the range of sizes shapes and abilities lost from australia as well as working hunting and herding lines that (particularly working Kelpies the bench animal now has little resemblance to a working stock dog in confirmation because of restriction of breeding on non CC registered dogs , these animals are far to important to loose .

I defend the right of all breeders with forsight ,vision , ethics and a true love for their dogs and all dogs to breed , remember that working kelpies are NOT CC registered dogs , But this is a true breed and has kept type for many years

Aaah, a person after my own heart......I WUV YOOO

Isn't there a working kelpie register? I know my friend's working bred kelpie is on the ANKC sporting register but he is desexed.

Edited January 25, 2010 by poodlefan

[Kelpie-i]

Yes there is PF, it's the Working Kelpie Council.

[Nic oh lah]

My opinions on all of this have become really solidified since i've been volunteering at a shelter and seeing the abandoned animals look up as i walk past, tails wagging and hoping someone's coming to take them and love them. I strongly believe that people should either purchase from a registered reputable breeder a purebred dog, or rescue one of the lovely dogs that end up in shelters and pounds. And stop with the "I can't afford a purebred" crap - at the shelter this weekend we had 2 pure Tibetan Spaniels, at least 3 purebred Staffy's, a purebred Bull Terrier, Pure Border Collie, and a Pure Dalmation. And Plenty of X breed pooches who deserve the same love and affection.

From here on in i'm probably going to get crucified for anything i write, but I believe it so i'm entitled to say it. I acknowledge that due to accidents, eg, Snoopy jumped the fence and visited Millie and now we have an unexpected litter of snoop-lies, X breed litters happen, so take responsibility people to find them loving homes and have people purchase the pups at the cost of you desexing them. Don't make money out of the transaction - as for feeding puppies etc, i'd put this down as your duty of care for allowing the pregnancy to occur, and if you have an entire bitch or dog without intentions to show or breed, then you run that risk and should be prepared to cop the financial loss. Instead of spending funds making people walk their dogs i wish the RSPCA would conduct mandatory yard inspections to ensure animals on the premises are a) registered, and b) desexed - if they're not desexed registration should cost more (it does in my council) and if gentleman really feel that their dog will hate them for chopping off the jewels (c'mon men, grow up) then have them chemically castrated. Otherwise expect higher registration fees unless you are a registered purebred breeder in which case you're already paying CCC membership (that's my understanding). And here's a radical idea - if you can't afford a purebred dog from a registered breeder and don't want to rescue - WAIT! Save your money until you CAN afford it.

Alright - i'm vacating the soapbox - and to those who will say "you didn't pay thousands for your dog" no i didnt, I took her as a free to good home from some people who didn't look after her, and if she hadn't come along and been the beautiful pedigree dog she is I would've waited to purchase a purebred from an ethical registered breeder.

[poodlefan]

There's a threshold question to be asked about intentional crossbreeding..

WHY?

No F1 crossbreeder can guarantee the results of any mating in terms of pup characteristics. Those going beyond F1 to develop new breeds have my blessing if they're responsible and treat the dogs well.

But the myth that crossing two breeds gives you the best of both is just that.. a myth. And few crossbreeders do anything more than F1 matings.

[chrisjc]

at some stage your pure bred show dogs were not what they are now. all dogs were crossbred at one stage or another.

dont get me wrong im all for purebred dogs but only in the way that they are used for a purpose other than parading around a pen because it "looks" like a good representation of the breed. the last thing we need is some idiots thinking there arent enough of these breeds around already.

working dogs and show dogs and working breeders and show breeders are so far from the same its beyond a joke.

there have been alot of great crossbred dogs out there who have found a well planned cross for their work the dogs intended for from agility work, from sar work, to protection work, to hunting. all of these breeders bred best to best work wise and put a high level of thought behind their selected crosses than most non working breeders ever would.

eventually all non working dog breeders[ show breders] will have to swap breeds or continually run into the same health problems that have been turning up for years and its only getting worse.

i would rather a well thought out good working mutt with heart than some dog thats been bred for money and to look like it "might" be ok for its first intended purpose or just to ge t a ribbon around its neck because of something its owner has done.

i know im gonna ruffle alot of feathers on this and thats fine. ive been burnt and anoyed by the show crowd that ive obviously got a grudge, but its my honest opinion.

DISCLAIMER: i am not a person who breeds dogs or at this stage plans to so i have no experience with breeding. so my thought probly dont count for much so please dont get too offended !

Edited January 25, 2010 by chrisjc

[Jacquiboss&scoop]

would be sad to see the range of sizes shapes and abilities lost from australia as well as working hunting and herding lines that (particularly working Kelpies the bench animal now has little resemblance to a working stock dog in confirmation because of restriction of breeding on non CC registered dogs , these animals are far to important to loose .

I defend the right of all breeders with forsight ,vision , ethics and a true love for their dogs and all dogs to breed , remember that working kelpies are NOT CC registered dogs , But this is a true breed and has kept type for many years

Aaah, a person after my own heart......I WUV YOOO :p

Isn't there a working kelpie register? I know my friend's working bred kelpie is on the ANKC sporting register but he is desexed.

Yes there is a register for them , bloodlines and breeding are kept with from what i have seen more than the standard 5 generations seen in CC registered dogs , I think although I ramble a bit, my worry is that legislation often throws the baby out with the bath water so to speak , I am in NSW and our CC is not always perceptive enough to see when they encourage only Pure bred CC registered dogs to breed what also may be lost , I would be interested if you could register an entire working kelpie on the sporting register ? as I am unsure on this one ? if to compete within dog sports they all must be desexed ? I am sure you can see the issue breed and train a top sport and herding dog and not be able to pass these genes to a new generation after proving on a field of compition ? Is it hard to imagine that the ruling will come down that will mean the demise of the working Kelpie because he does not fit the Box of CC registration ?

I don't feel that dogs should be crossed but I think that we need to be truly careful in what we wish for and its impact on the dog breeds we love is only a small step to losing our choices and we may well do it to ourselves " and now the catch cry will not be dangerous but unethical, unhealthy , inappropriate to modern life" I want to continue to keep dogs throughout my life , and the wonder of all the breeds I would one day like to share my home with , if we are not careful we may just lose them still we need to BAN THE DEED NOT THE BREED this includes the Mutts the people are the problem here

[poodlefan]

working dogs and show dogs and working breeders and show breeders are so far from the same its beyond a joke.

there have been alot of great crossbred dogs out there who have found a well planned cross for their work the dogs intended for from agility work, from sar work, to protection work, to hunting. all of these breeders bred best to best work wise and put a high level of thought behind their selected crosses than most non working breeders ever would.

How many of these supposed crosses are F1's and not line bred Chris? I can speak from an agility perspective and say that serious agility handlers looking for their next sport dog generally aren't buying crossbreds.

Every serious protection trainer or police trainer I've ever heard of buys purebreds.. as do guide dogs.

And predictability of characteristics in the adult dog is the reason why. Of course if you're starting with an adult then its a known result. But few folk I know start with adult dogs to work them in anything. There are some mine detectors and post office dogs but for most scent detection work, trainers choose purebreds from known working lines.

[Jed]

My opinions on all of this have become really solidified since i've been volunteering at a shelter and seeing the abandoned animals look up as i walk past, tails wagging and hoping someone's coming to take them and love them. I strongly believe that people should either purchase from a registered reputable breeder a purebred dog, or rescue one of the lovely dogs that end up in shelters and pounds. And stop with the "I can't afford a purebred" crap - at the shelter this weekend we had 2 pure Tibetan Spaniels, at least 3 purebred Staffy's, a purebred Bull Terrier, Pure Border Collie, and a Pure Dalmation. And Plenty of X breed pooches who deserve the same love and affection.

And here we have the root of the problem. The person who took that puppy didn't want it any more, or didn't care enough about it to find it when it got out. There is no over supply of dogs - what there is an oversupply of is people who are not committed to keeping the dog, people who did not train the dog, people who did not carefully consider before they took the pup.

The problem begins with the breeder, whether cross bred, purebred, or designer mutt. If the breeder does not qualify the homes for the pups, and ensure that the home is the lifetime hnme and just sells to anyone, there will be dogs in the pound.

Bit off topic!!

All dogs deserve good homes. Anyone breeding them should be aware of that. They should not be bred unless that can be guaranteed. If unspeyed bitches become pregnant, and the owners do not think they can find all the pups homes, the bitch should be speyed early in the pregnancy.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen.

It's all probably not about cross bred and purebred, it's about responsible breeding, no matter what it is, and responsible homing to well chosen lifetime homes.

If you can't do that, don't breed.

JMHO

[SpikesPuppy]

My opinions on all of this have become really solidified since i've been volunteering at a shelter and seeing the abandoned animals look up as i walk past, tails wagging and hoping someone's coming to take them and love them. I strongly believe that people should either purchase from a registered reputable breeder a purebred dog, or rescue one of the lovely dogs that end up in shelters and pounds. And stop with the "I can't afford a purebred" crap - at the shelter this weekend we had 2 pure Tibetan Spaniels, at least 3 purebred Staffy's, a purebred Bull Terrier, Pure Border Collie, and a Pure Dalmation. And Plenty of X breed pooches who deserve the same love and affection.

And here we have the root of the problem. The person who took that puppy didn't want it any more, or didn't care enough about it to find it when it got out. There is no over supply of dogs - what there is an oversupply of is people who are not committed to keeping the dog, people who did not train the dog, people who did not carefully consider before they took the pup.

The problem begins with the breeder, whether cross bred, purebred, or designer mutt. If the breeder does not qualify the homes for the pups, and ensure that the home is the lifetime hnme and just sells to anyone, there will be dogs in the pound.

Bit off topic!!

All dogs deserve good homes. Anyone breeding them should be aware of that. They should not be bred unless that can be guaranteed. If unspeyed bitches become pregnant, and the owners do not think they can find all the pups homes, the bitch should be speyed early in the pregnancy.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen.

It's all probably not about cross bred and purebred, it's about responsible breeding, no matter what it is, and responsible homing to well chosen lifetime homes.

If you can't do that, don't breed.

JMHO

This is exactly how I feel, Jed. There is NO oversupply of dogs... and if those unprepared to make that 15-20 year commitment refrained from buying that cute puppy, there would be no homeless dogs.

With regard to responsible homing though- we can only do our best and hope that our gut instinct is correct and that our puppy buyers actually DO contact us if they can no longer keep their dog, because guess what? Life sometimes changes and no matter how much we love our dogs, we can't (or should not) always keep them.

There are plenty of mongrel or designer dog owners who are very responsible..... just as there are people who say all the right things to buy a pedigree pup and dump it when it no longer fits in.

[Jed]

Spikes Puppy

With regard to responsible homing though- we can only do our best and hope that our gut instinct is correct and that our puppy buyers actually DO contact us if they can no longer keep their dog, because guess what? Life sometimes changes and no matter how much we love our dogs, we can't (or should not) always keep them

Absolutely. I don't often get it wrong - but I have a lot of experience. If I do get it wrong, I am there to help. I try to stay in touch - a quick note or email a few times a year. After a couple of years, you know whether it is ok or not. And by that time, they are confident enough about you to ask if you will take the dog back if necessary. Plus I make them sign an agreement not to rehome the dog without giving me first refusal.

Hardly ever happens. And if it does, I take the dog back and find it another good home, or send suitable people around to look at it. I took a young girl back last year, nothing wrong with the dog, just unfortunate circumstances, couldn't be helped. Advertised her, got 57 responses, found her another nice home, she settled straight in.

Breeding dogs which are reasonably easy to train, easy to live with, and (thanks lilli) with good nerves means people aren't going to have huge problems. They knew when they bought about size, shape, coat, temperament, so the adult dog shouldn't be a surprise. If I keep in touch, I can help with training issues, if there are any.

If the stew hits and fan, and they need somewhere for the dog for a month or a year, I can help, and sometimes that makes the difference. When you are a single older lady and you fall over your half grown pup and break your shoulder, what do you do with the pup? What do you do if you are depressed, and don't think you can keep the dog, or manage the dog? If the breeder steps in and takes the dog for a couple of months, continues training it, when you feel up to it, you can take the dog back. Everyone, including the dog (who is the most important one) is happy.

If everyone who bred did that, the pounds would be almost deserted. Apart from there being fewer of them to begin with, the reason registered dogs fetch up so rarely in the pound is because MOST reg breeders home their pups responsibly.

But no matter what we do, the odd one falls through the cracks - but the "odd one" doesn't fill pounds, and if the "odd one" is carefully bred the pound should be able to find it a home quickly, and turn a tidy profit at the same time.

And GOOD crossbred breeders do the same thing. There are people who breed x breds who are careful and ethical and who care for the pups, and where they go.

JMHO

Edited January 25, 2010 by Jed

[Skruffy n Flea]

frankly, i don't care AS LONG AS it's done ethically and responsibly ... i abhor byb and i detest this dogawful dd trade...

[kelpiekaye]

I have been reading this thread with interest all 13 pages , I own both pure and cross bred dogs and have done all my life , my crosses are rescues and my pures from registered breeders , although my pures are true to type , with a temps within a predictable range the true advantage to me is that I can find a puppy that I like , both pure and cross

I feel that all of my dogs are equal , all get the same training , vet care , attention and diet , they are dogs !

I would be sad to see the range of sizes shapes and abilities lost from australia as well as working hunting and herding lines that (particularly working Kelpies the bench animal now has little resemblance to a working stock dog in confirmation because of restriction of breeding on non CC registered dogs , these animals are far to important to loose .

the loss also of breeds that may have a bad rep , I love my rotties and they would be sadly one of the breeds that we would be deprived of , too big , to scary , to expensive to feed , hard to handle when untrained and lacking in attention not a Suitable Pet Breed

X breeds were always when I was young to create a working dog of particular type ( always the same type herding x herding ) or Opps my bitch was gotten to not for financial gain , can we look at outlawing greedy unethical dishonest people , not the dogs x breeds and pures will all be affected if we let it , if we dont stand firm on peoples right to breed healthy stable dogs .

Would you like the designer dog of the future , minimal shed , small to mid size sharp nose dark coat and no working or prey drive does not bark or talk "perfect for you family "

I defend the right of all breeders with forsight ,vision , ethics and a true love for their dogs and all dogs to breed , remember that working kelpies are NOT CC registered dogs , But this is a true breed and has kept type for many years

Well said. I agree.

[Steve]

at some stage your pure bred show dogs were not what they are now. all dogs were crossbred at one stage or another.

dont get me wrong im all for purebred dogs but only in the way that they are used for a purpose other than parading around a pen because it "looks" like a good representation of the breed. the last thing we need is some idiots thinking there arent enough of these breeds around already.

working dogs and show dogs and working breeders and show breeders are so far from the same its beyond a joke.

there have been alot of great crossbred dogs out there who have found a well planned cross for their work the dogs intended for from agility work, from sar work, to protection work, to hunting. all of these breeders bred best to best work wise and put a high level of thought behind their selected crosses than most non working breeders ever would.

eventually all non working dog breeders[ show breders] will have to swap breeds or continually run into the same health problems that have been turning up for years and its only getting worse.

i would rather a well thought out good working mutt with heart than some dog thats been bred for money and to look like it "might" be ok for its first intended purpose or just to ge t a ribbon around its neck because of something its owner has done.

i know im gonna ruffle alot of feathers on this and thats fine. ive been burnt and anoyed by the show crowd that ive obviously got a grudge, but its my honest opinion.

DISCLAIMER: i am not a person who breeds dogs or at this stage plans to so i have no experience with breeding. so my thought probly dont count for much so please dont get too offended !

The MDBA has both working kelpie people and show kelpie people in our membership.

[Darn Et]

My opinions on all of this have become really solidified since i've been volunteering at a shelter and seeing the abandoned animals look up as i walk past, tails wagging and hoping someone's coming to take them and love them. I strongly believe that people should either purchase from a registered reputable breeder a purebred dog, or rescue one of the lovely dogs that end up in shelters and pounds. And stop with the "I can't afford a purebred" crap - at the shelter this weekend we had 2 pure Tibetan Spaniels, at least 3 purebred Staffy's, a purebred Bull Terrier, Pure Border Collie, and a Pure Dalmation. And Plenty of X breed pooches who deserve the same love and affection.

And here we have the root of the problem. The person who took that puppy didn't want it any more, or didn't care enough about it to find it when it got out. There is no over supply of dogs - what there is an oversupply of is people who are not committed to keeping the dog, people who did not train the dog, people who did not carefully consider before they took the pup.

The problem begins with the breeder, whether cross bred, purebred, or designer mutt. If the breeder does not qualify the homes for the pups, and ensure that the home is the lifetime hnme and just sells to anyone, there will be dogs in the pound.

Bit off topic!!

All dogs deserve good homes. Anyone breeding them should be aware of that. They should not be bred unless that can be guaranteed. If unspeyed bitches become pregnant, and the owners do not think they can find all the pups homes, the bitch should be speyed early in the pregnancy.

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen.

It's all probably not about cross bred and purebred, it's about responsible breeding, no matter what it is, and responsible homing to well chosen lifetime homes.

If you can't do that, don't breed.

JMHO