Cross Breeds- Breeding?

[Allerzeit]

I also got a "pure" rotty,,,,,that stood more than the max for standards.....seen alot on here too,

IF you wanna talk PUREBREEDS......then stop crossing...

Who here has a pure registered rotty??

Standing more than 52cm at the shoulders???

That is NOT pure it got that way through crossing.....be real breeders....

You cross breed to make things better,,,you just think you do it better than everyone else...........

Do you actually know what the Rottweiler standard lists as the correct heights for the breed?

Yes, I most definitely have Rottweilers here who are well over 52cms - they are in the correct height range for the breed standard instead. They also have pedigrees going back longer than your arm, so I can assure you, they certainly are pure.

Please don't comment about a breed when you clearly don't know the correct information for that breed :D

[Tiara]

I also got a "pure" rotty,,,,,that stood more than the max for standards.....seen alot on here too,

IF you wanna talk PUREBREEDS......then stop crossing...

Who here has a pure registered rotty??

Standing more than 52cm at the shoulders???

That is NOT pure it got that way through crossing.....be real breeders....

You cross breed to make things better,,,you just think you do it better than everyone else...........

Do you actually know what the Rottweiler standard lists as the correct heights for the breed?

Yes, I most definitely have Rottweilers here who are well over 52cms - they are in the correct height range for the breed standard instead. They also have pedigrees going back longer than your arm, so I can assure you, they certainly are pure.

Please don't comment about a breed when you clearly don't know the correct information for that breed :D

Sorry but who are these registered breeders that are crossing, Nannas???

And where did you get 52cms from? How is a Rottweiler over 52 oversize?

Where are you getting this info from?!

[Steve]

So in reality what you are all asking for is Breed specific legislation?

Please elaborate your logic. Not clear what you are saying.

I think what Steve may be saying is that you are all asking for regulation on what should and should not be bred- just because YOU don't like these crossbreeds/mixes you don't think they should exist. Is that not a form of BSL???

(Steve, correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I read it :D )

I understood it that way too.

Guess I was confused cause I -- and some others posting -- don't seek such legislation . . . rather for an acceptance that old breeds might disappear and new breeds may appear . . . some of them through crossbreeding. Dog roles change. Dog breeds need to change also. The 'breed standard' doesn't easily allow for change. So of course people move outside the framework of pedigree breeding.

Yes thats what I meant but you cant just say you think it should be allowed to happen if they are going toward a new breed it also has to be cross breeds such as Kate breeds which will never go past F1 crosses and mixed breed if someone wants to do that.

If you dont say everyone who does the right thing by the welfare of the dogs has equal rights to breed their dog then you are accepting legislation which relates to one breed or part there - of differently to another - breed specific legislation.

[laneka]

Nannas, I personally would love to know where you got your information from re the Rottweiler being 52cm. In the 1921 ADRK breed standard they are as follows, height at shoulder:

Dogs 60 - 68cm

Bitches 55 - 65cm.

The 1960 breed standard states

Dogs 60 - 66cm

Bitches 55 - 61cm

They then went on to fix the standard at

Height at shoulder for a male,

60 - 68cm

60 - 61cm small'

62 - 64cm medium sized

65 - 66cm large

67 - 68cm very large

Height at shoulder for a female

55 - 63cm

55 - 57cm small

58 - 59cm medium sized

60 - 61cm large

62 - 63cm very large

So please can you inform all us ignorant Rottweiler people where you got your information from?

After doing a bit more researching, in 1901 when the Rottweiler was not just a black and tan dog but could have been brindle, red with a hint of black, grey with black and yellow markings, white markings on the forehead, chest or paws. The height still ranged between 50 - 60cm. So even then dogs were over your so called standard.

It is called selective breeding not cross breeding as you so ignorantly call it.

Edited January 23, 2010 by laneka

[Rottshowgirl]

I also got a "pure" rotty,,,,,that stood more than the max for standards.....seen alot on here too,

IF you wanna talk PUREBREEDS......then stop crossing...

Who here has a pure registered rotty??

Standing more than 52cm at the shoulders???

That is NOT pure it got that way through crossing.....be real breeders....

You cross breed to make things better,,,you just think you do it better than everyone else...........

Aaaah, the Rottweiler expert has spoken Clearly very familiar with all the work put in by dedicated breeders over the last century and more

You can selectively breed for taller dogs, smaller dogs etc you do not have to crossbreed to do it, where are the Rotty breeders that are crossbreeding? could you enlighten us please.

I'd like to know who they are too, breeding Rotts that stand at 52cm at the shoulder. Are they crossing them with Manchester Terriers? Min Pins? 52 cms is a difficult height to hit with today's Rottweiler stock

Geesh,,,Rotty's should by old standards stand 52cm's at the shoulders,,,,,but we have ""Purebreeds"" in here standing almost twice that...They got that through cross breeding...

That is the funniest thing i have read all morning :D Thanks for that

Me too :D Are my dogs too big? Even my big-winning girl is oversized according to NannaS She's going to be gutted to hear she's THAT oversized. Or is that undersized given the double height ones that NannaS would be comparing her too

Best be sticking to speaking about things you actually know about.....

eta: NannaS if you would like to know who the ADRK (that Laneka quoted) are, Google will be your friend

Edited January 23, 2010 by Rottshowgirl

[Cosmolo]

I've never heard it described as BSL Steve- but i think you're right. Thats why i started this topic- to get opinions like this and as i think woofnhoof says, the conflict between the rights of people and the welfare of animals. I am NOT promoting cross breeds by starting this thread.

Yes its true that the purebreds i see are not necesarily bred by registered breeders but yes there are common breeds- Labradors, Staffordshires, Kelpies (there is a stunning litter of red kelpie pups at the moment) Rottweilers (we seem to get alot of rotts at this particular shelter) Beagles and German Shepherds are probably the most common. The small breeds seem to be mainly crosses or perhaps badly bred pure bred dogs but the dog breeds i mention above are the ones that appear to be more than reasonable representations of the breed, i don't count the ones that could just as easily be crosses.

[Steve]

I've never heard it described as BSL Steve- but i think you're right. Thats why i started this topic- to get opinions like this and as i think woofnhoof says, the conflict between the rights of people and the welfare of animals. I am NOT promoting cross breeds by starting this thread.

Yes its true that the purebreds i see are not necesarily bred by registered breeders but yes there are common breeds- Labradors, Staffordshires, Kelpies (there is a stunning litter of red kelpie pups at the moment) Rottweilers (we seem to get alot of rotts at this particular shelter) Beagles and German Shepherds are probably the most common. The small breeds seem to be mainly crosses or perhaps badly bred pure bred dogs but the dog breeds i mention above are the ones that appear to be more than reasonable representations of the breed, i don't count the ones that could just as easily be crosses.

Thats part of the problem for pedigreed breeders.For us the only dog which is a purebred is one that we can see the papers on.

Without that anyone could have bred them and anything could be in the mix and we get blamed if there is temperament or health problems.What people see happening in what they describe as a purebred isnt necessarily anything related to us or our breeds.

Here's an example.

Which of these is a beagle?

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Edited January 23, 2010 by Steve

[laneka]

To me they look like the same dog, one a pup and the other pic as an older dog. I would go for the one on the right if I had to pick. Bet I'm wrong.

I know and understand exactly what you are saying. The Rottweiler gets blamed for everything. The dog in question only has to be big and black and tan and he is labeled a Rottweiler. Some do not even have Rottweiler in it but because of this sort of labelling, our breed suffers.

[KismetKat]

Which of these is a beagle?

*dons "joe public" hat*

They are both Beagles!

*takes off hat*

I have a rescue dog from a breed-specific rescue. The rescue organisation have a good idea who the dog's breeder was just by looking at him. Somewhere, my rescue dog has papers, but I don't have them.

So this means that I can't say my dog is breed "x" as I don't have the papers to prove it.

Occasionally I've wondered what would happen if unpapered dogs were allowed to go up against papered ones in the ring.

[Cosmolo]

I am not referring to any dogs black and tan as rottweilers and there have been photos i have shown to rottweiler breeders (one who is very well respected) and it was agreed that the dog was pure. I understand tht breeders would be skeptical about anyone calling a shelter/ pound dog a pure bred- i have seen some real doozy descriptions in my time, but just because dogs come in without their papers (and some do come in WITH papers) does not make them a cross.

[huski]

Re; which is a beagle - the second one

Edited January 23, 2010 by huski

[Steve]

The second and third.The first is a cav x beagle and if I didnt know I would say its probably a purebred.The second is a papered purebred and the third a papered purebred from hunting lines.

Someone who breeds dogs without CC papers is different to someone who does and no matter what it looks like if you dont know its parentage are CC registered purebreds its not a CC pedigreed dog.

[SpikesPuppy]

When Caber was a puppy he went to puppy school with a pup that was from a pure Beagle and a Beagle X mini Poodle. To me, the pup looked pure Beagle and had the coat of a beagle etc. I saw no MP anywhere. Maybe a little light in bone for agood Beagle but still. I would have picked it as a BYB Beagle.

[Cosmolo]

I did not say i see CC pedigreed dogs Steve- although i have seen a few, with their papers fixed to their pen card- i said purebred.

[laneka]

Ooops, didn't pick the third dog as I thought it was a siggy. Glad I got one right.

Cosmolo, I was using the Rottweiler as an example. There are a lot of dogs out there that look purebred but are not. Some have the characteristics of an ancestor and therefore is mistaken for a purebred. Without a pedigree, how do you know for absolute sure that it is infact a purebred dog.

[Steve]

I did not say i see CC pedigreed dogs Steve- although i have seen a few, with their papers fixed to their pen card- i said purebred.

I know but whats a purebred and without papers how could you know?

[Cosmolo]

You're right- its just my educated opinion. Sometimes backed up by breeders of the breeds involved, sometimes not. Surely you don't think though that there aren't registered dogs in pounds/ shelters? We could argue the other way too- there could just as easily be some dogs that are believed to be crosses, that are in fact pure.

Anyway back to topic- i would love to hear opinions on the comments from Steve about BSL pertaining to cross breeding. For those who would not like to see any cross breeding in future, what do you think about this comparison?

Edited January 23, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Steve]

You're right- its just my educated opinion. Sometimes backed up by breeders of the breeds involved, sometimes not. Surely you don't think though that there aren't registered dogs in pounds/ shelters? We could argue the other way too- there could just as easily be some dogs that are believed to be crosses, that are in fact pure.

Anyway back to topic- i would love to hear opinions on the comments from Steve about BSL pertaining to cross breeding. For those who would not like to see any cross breeding in future, what do you think about this comparison?

No I dont think there are never any pedigreed purebreds in pounds or shelters but when dogs are tagged as purebred regardless of who bred them its the pedigreed breeders and the breeds which take the flack.Dont get me wrong its hard not to call a dog that looks like a beagle a beagle. I get that but...........

There is a push on for a data base to be set up so vets can log in what breeds they have seen and what diseases are in them - most of these will be dogs bred by un registered breeders without care for who they are breeding them with and cross bred breeders etc but when the stats come down its the bad purebred breeders and their purebreds who will answer for that.

I dont want to see any cross breeding in future either but its still a rights issue.

[laneka]

Of course there are pedigreed dogs in pounds but I'll bet not half as many as crosses.

Okay, I have not read all of this thread, will go back and do so. I came in on the height of a Rott. This is my feelings re crosses.

1. a lot do make wonderful pets

2. they are too indiscriminately bred

3. too many are pts because they are not wanted for one reason or another

4. too easy to obtain - cheap

5. if there must be crosses then they should only be bred at proper well kept/housed kennels by council registered breeders, limiting their numbers. Desexed before going to new homes. Bitches can have tubal ligation and dogs vasectomy. So no major surgery.

Sounds harsh but like all the moggies(cats) who pump out the kittens there are far too many being bred for a quick buck or the owners are too damm lazy to desex.

Far too many being pts, because of a whim, which makes me very very angry and sad. Poor dogs, they do not ask to be born and should have a right to be well looked after and loved.

Edited to say, I also believe that pedigree breeder should have a limit on how many litters they bred per year too.

Edited January 23, 2010 by laneka

[Katherine_M]

Hey All!

Have not had time to read the whole thread so I apologize if this has already been written.

I am not a breeder. Also I don't think at the rate byb's are pumping out dogs we can safely say that cross breeding could ever be controlled if we made it "ok". It's already out of control.

Besides that I have been looking at the origin of pit bulls and staffies and such. I have read that pittys are a mix of old english bulldog (now extinct) and a terrier of some sort and that staffies are english bulldogs and manchester terriers? This may or may not be exactly right but we can tell that certain breeds have come from crosses. So there is the potential that someone will create a new breed that has a purpose. So essentially a cross. And not just an "oodle" to make a pet shop money!