Cross Breeds- Breeding?

[Zug Zug]

Very interesting question.

I am an allergy-sufferer and have an 'oodle' at home (from the pound 10 years ago). Also have a bichon.

This list from an earlier post was interesting I thought:

I also think if the following breeds were available and promoted, people would choose them as an alternative to oddles.

Poodles with a bad ass haircut

Bichon

Havanese

Chinese Crested (Powderpuff)

Spinone

Lagotto

Portugese Water Dog

Irish Water Spaniel

(and probably another 6 breeds I've forgotten )

I would add a few to the list. Schnauzers, Tibetan Terriers, Bedlington Terriers, Kerry Blues etc. Probably take spinone off the list (for my allergies - don't know about others).

So yes I think these dogs would appeal to oodle buyers - but the problem is they are hard to come by. My preferences would be poodles (smart, easy to train, comparatively easier to come by but still there are often waiting lists etc.), lagotto (very hard to come by), bichon (also hard to come by) etc etc.

So it's not that there is a problem with the breeds and the variation and choice I don't think. It's just that the oodles are available quickly when people want them.

Raises the next problem - if these purebreeds were ready when people wanted them (pretty much any time) then isn't that just more puppy farming? And encouraging irresponsible breeding of purebred dogs with lack of attention to health matters?

For me that would just take us straight back down that same old road.

[Elfin]

I have had cross breds that in 15years have had NOTHING wrong with them ever....and were given to me with 2 bags of food.

You cannot get a purebred at that price....

Sorry

I got two purebreds at that price. One now even has a Ch. in front of his name.

And both are healthy, loving and loved family pets.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Elfin

[Kelpie-i]

I like cross breeds....you know the "accidental mating" type (my bad I know ). A friend of mine bought his Border Collie x Kelpie for $70 and he's a fantastic dog. My corgi x heeler cost me the desexing charge, she's nearly 12 years old and still keeps up with the kelpies.

I have to bite my tongue each time I speak with a person who tells me they own a Groodle, Spoodle etc with papers. I merely continue referring to the dog by it's actual breeding ie Golden x Poodle, hoping they get the message.

Although....ALL of our purebreeds today are a product of cross breeding way back when.

[Nannas]

I have had cross breds that in 15years have had NOTHING wrong with them ever....and were given to me with 2 bags of food.

You cannot get a purebred at that price....

Sorry

I got two purebreds at that price. One now even has a Ch. in front of his name.

What were they??

Some breeds in some areas no one cares for..

I wouldn't pay crap for anything under my knee (hates small dogs)

Do as you will,,take as you please,,,for as cheap as you can get it....

This isn't about that

Edited January 22, 2010 by Nannas

[Nannas]

Actually,,,the person who posted about lost/stolen bull terriers...that you all supported,,,I think is advertising in our pet shop...

Not many purebred bull terriers here,,,,let alone advertising...

So you help and support that chit????

[spiff]

I love bitsa's,there the only dog's I've ever had in my house, I really do like all dogs. I am amazed what I'm reading, it all sounds a bit snobbish and I haven't heard anyone talk like that since I was in South Africa in the early eighty's.That's just my opinion and probably my last, oh yea jess live die. If your going to belittle your cousins intelligents it would be a good idea to use the spell check

[Cosmolo]

Jed in the last week i have seen a curly coated retriever, lakeland terrier, akita, rottweiler, GSD, pug, beagle, chihuahua, foxhound and Jack Russell at one shelter. Purebred dogs to come into shelters regularly but i would think the split would be about 70/30- more cross breeds though.

[Elfin]

I have had cross breds that in 15years have had NOTHING wrong with them ever....and were given to me with 2 bags of food.

You cannot get a purebred at that price....

Sorry

I got two purebreds at that price. One now even has a Ch. in front of his name.

What were they??

Some breeds in some areas no one cares for..

I wouldn't pay crap for anything under my knee (hates small dogs)

Do as you will,,take as you please,,,for as cheap as you can get it....

This isn't about that

They are Deerhounds, so they would not be "under your knee", I'm sure.

I didn't get them because they were cheap. I got them because I offered a good home to two lovely dogs.

[Zug Zug]

To a certain extent don't we have to accept that we may have preferences that others don't share?

I would have thought there have always been crossbred dogs, and always will be. I don't think that's the issue in question (or at least I don't think it should be the issue)

The issue (to my mind) is about animal care, puppy farming, false claims about cross bred dogs (and charging a fortune based on those false claims).

My experience - purebred bichon puppy from dodgy interstate breeder (I would call this person a dealer these days). Mozart was sick when I got him (I didn't realise until later) and when I asked the breeder to help pay for the vet bills (over $600 and still counting only 4 days later) he said just bring the dog back and I'll refund your money. When asked what would happen to the puppy he said he'd put him in the back room and if he lived he's sell him to someone else. No vet care. Just wait and see. No question Mozart would not have survived that. Luckily I didn't take this guy up on his generous offer. Still makes me white-hot livid when I think about it, and it was 12 years ago.

There is nothing ethical, per se, about breeding purebred dogs. In my view there is nothing unethical, per se, about the reverse. But there are other issues (unpredictability of offspring etc.) that are also important.

[leopuppy04]

Leopuppy

The pounds are full of pure breeds too.

Where?

At the ones I work at we do get purebreds in quite regularly.

nobody is denying that there are far more x breeds or BYB purebreeds that end up in shelters, but it certainly isn't an uncommon occurence to have a P/B (with ANKC papers) turn up at a shelter either.

[Mystiqview]

I supported the reasoning behind Guide Dogs for doing the poodle x labradore cross. And still do in principle.

Of course with media and all that crap, who knows the truth these days to whether it is reasonably successful, or still persevered with. I do not know why the curly coat or other breeds were ruled out as unsuitable guide dogs.

To me, if a group can genuinely provide a damn good argument for producing a new breed (AKA cross), then I would consider it on merit.

Many of our beloved pedigree dogs started off as crossbred to be bred for a specific purpose. To me, it would be hypocritical to not look at genuine reasons for putting X with Y. Given the selection of breeds and many are not used for their original purpose now, I think I would be hard pressed to see why there is a need for a new breed.

I realise some crosses have also been around for a reasonable long time and are fighting their way into ANKC or similar bodies recognition (a terrier breed comes to mind, but cannot think of the name right now).

[huski]

I love bitsa's,there the only dog's I've ever had in my house, I really do like all dogs. I am amazed what I'm reading, it all sounds a bit snobbish and I haven't heard anyone talk like that since I was in South Africa in the early eighty's.That's just my opinion and probably my last, oh yea jess live die. If your going to belittle your cousins intelligents it would be a good idea to use the spell check

It's simple for me...

I know exactly what kind of dog will suit my lifestyle.

I know what size I want, what temperament, grooming and exercise requirements, etc.

For me, the reason I choose purebreds from reputable breeds is because at the end of the day they offer me the best chance possible at getting a dog who will be the best match for my lifestyle.

It's not about snobbery - it's a practical choice, and one I take seriously, because I know what kind of dog suits me and what traits I would be miserable to live with, what kind of dogs I can and cannot give a great home to, what I am capable of providing.

Edited January 22, 2010 by huski

[Muttaburra]

Cosmolo -= if they were doing these things and making intelligent crosses (ie working towards a standard, compatible breeds, bred for a real reason etc) then I wouldn't have a problem with them. That is how most breeds today have been developed.

Megan, I don't believe that is how all Purebreeds started at all, some perhaps. If you look at breed development, many started with a "type" of dog, for example the history of the Affenpinscher

here ............ http://www.akc.org/breeds/affenpinscher/history.cfm

One of the most ancient of toy dogs, the Affenpinscher originated in Central Europe. During the 17th century, small terriers were frequently kept around stables, on farms or in stores where they served as ratters.................... Bred down in size, these small terriers became companions in the home and kept mice from overrunning their mistresses' boudoirs.

The Affenpinscher is believed to have been a major influence in the development of many of the smaller rough-coated breeds of continental Europe, including the Brussels Griffon and the Miniature Schnauzer..................

So they were stable ratters, who after many generations became similar in characteristics, then people using selective breeding refined the breed, so it bred true to type.

This breed was then bred to develop other breeds, again with selective breeding, and perhaps infusions of other breeds, but never for the purpose of producing F1 crosses as the end result, but more to steer and shape the breed in another direction.

Another example is the Australian Terrier, one of the smallest of the working Terriers, was bred to be both a helper and companion in rough times and terrain. A native dog (known as the "rough-coated terrier") and a close relative of the old Scotch dog of Great Britain (not to be confused with the present-day Scottish Terrier) are believed to have been cross-bred with a number of other breeds of British stock to produce the fast, sturdy, weather-resistant and fearless little dog that the settlers needed as they expanded the frontiers of their country. The breeds chosen for cross-breeding were selected to promote specific desired traits.

Although there are differences among writers of the histories of the breed, there is a consensus of opinion that the breeds used included the precursor of the Dandie Dinmont Terrier, the Skye, the Yorkshire, and the old Black and Tan Terrier.

http://www.australianterrier.org/history.html

Notable in the development of the Australian Terrier is that it was developed using other TERRIERs, so again, it can be seen that the earlier developers of the breed were working with a certain "type" of dog, in this case the Terrier, and aimed at refining the coat and temperament to suit what was needed 150 years ago in the rural areas of Australia.

So even though today's Purebreed dogs may have mixed ancestry, most of them started with a "type", then were bred smaller, or larger, hairier or smooth, ear shapes, leg lengths, varying temperaments and so on.

Developing a new breed of dog is a lot different to producing an F1 crossbreed.

Also as SBT pointed out, it is diluting the gene pool of existing Purebred dogs.

The other issue with cross-breeding is Pedigrees, very hard to make really informed decision when deciding on which dogs to mate, because even if they have a pedigree, it's almost impossible to know what the synergy effect will be.

I have seen some appalling coats on cross-breed dogs, coats that are so thin the dog is barely covered and what is there is sparce and tangles like crazy. Others with the combination continual growing poodle coats mixed with other breeds and having textures that are huge maintenance issues.

And some of the skeletal problems are tragic, ever seen a dog with legs too long and a crumbling pelvis? Some of the cranio-facial mismatches are disturbing, and can only be causing the dogs health problems.

If the decision were being made by experts in dog breeding, and some outside breeds were being introduced as infusions to a Purebreed in a carefully controlled and scientific fashion, to create a new breed, the ultimate aim being for a breed that would breed true to type, that would be harder to criticise.

[Bindii]

I love bitsa's,there the only dog's I've ever had in my house, I really do like all dogs. I am amazed what I'm reading, it all sounds a bit snobbish and I haven't heard anyone talk like that since I was in South Africa in the early eighty's.That's just my opinion and probably my last, oh yea jess live die. If your going to belittle your cousins intelligents it would be a good idea to use the spell check

:laugh:

Edited January 22, 2010 by Bindii

[Nannas]

I have had cross breds that in 15years have had NOTHING wrong with them ever....and were given to me with 2 bags of food.

You cannot get a purebred at that price....

Sorry

I got two purebreds at that price. One now even has a Ch. in front of his name.

What were they??

Some breeds in some areas no one cares for..

I wouldn't pay crap for anything under my knee (hates small dogs)

Do as you will,,take as you please,,,for as cheap as you can get it....

This isn't about that

They are Deerhounds, so they would not be "under your knee", I'm sure.

I didn't get them because they were cheap. I got them because I offered a good home to two lovely dogs.

Honestly,,,I probably would NOT have taken them..

I like bulldog breeds,,(so shoot me,,someone has to save them)

Actually my pit and AmStaff were both free,,,apart from vet bills.....About $5,000 for the pit and $1,000 for AmStaff...

I would not have spent the money on a deerhound though....

So sue me....I have choices and I make them,,,,,,my dogs do as I want and are great dogs,,,I have owned the breeds before and thought I would take a chance on spending the money...

IF they were offered as purebreeds I would have been asked for atleast $1,000 more,,,,,,,no way....I got them off death row,,,,as they are,,,and paid out what I had to....

You tell me Elfin,,,what I would pay for another pure pitbull now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would my AmStaff cost from a breeder?????????

I have been offered so much for a pup from my pit you have no idea...

You all sit there in dreamland thinking about BSL but you really have no idea....

[Muttaburra]

I supported the reasoning behind Guide Dogs for doing the poodle x labradore cross. And still do in principle.

Of course with media and all that crap, who knows the truth these days to whether it is reasonably successful, or still persevered with. I do not know why the curly coat or other breeds were ruled out as unsuitable guide dogs.

To me, if a group can genuinely provide a damn good argument for producing a new breed (AKA cross), then I would consider it on merit.

The experiment to provide an allergy free Guide Dog with the attributes of a Labrador and the non-allergy coat of a Poodle was for all intents and purposes a failure. Only a small number of dogs from this cross were allergy free, likewise those suitable as guide dogs.

But..... due to a certain Gardener legitimising unfounded claims of the benefits of "hybrid vigour" (while ignoring "outbreeding depression" as a factor) and promoting cross-breeds on a certain popular gardening show, the horse well and truly bolted from the stable.

Every half-wit backyard breeder jumped at the promise of huge bucks for cross-breeds, Pet Shops sold them, Puppy Farms produced them in the thousands, as the Emporer with no clothes on paraded proudly down the street.

The gullible public rushed to buy mutts at inflated prices thinking that they were getting a superior animal.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Muttaburra

[fifi]

ahaaaa ! you have it nannas, its okay to have spend squillions on death row dogs, (as long as they are bull breed of course ) but not a decent purchase price on a registered purebred that will hopefully have been tested for heriditary diseases in that breed, continued support from an ethical breeder & a health guarantee ?

maybe its just late, but your logic is rather contradictory !!

fifi

Edited January 22, 2010 by fifi

[SpikesPuppy]

Nannas- I have no idea what you are going on about??? If people didn't breed pure bred dogs you wouldn't have your pure bred pit or your pure bred AmStaff?? So what you got them for free... they are still (if as pure as you say) the product of decades of hard work and careful breeding. If you like mongrels- go buy mongrels?????

I am not strictly opposed to cross breeding if it's done as described in the OP - health testing, careful choice of parents, lifetime support from the breeder ETC. It's not my place or right to judge what other people do... however I do think that the breeds used must be chosen carefully and should have similar construction and temperaments (ie: we had a Whippet x Kelpie and she was psycho. A rescue but even so- you would look at her and could see that she was never sure if she should be soft like a whippet or game like a Kelpie. It was a little scary). Also the false advertising that implies you get '50-50' or 'all the good points but no bad points' of both breeds is WRONG!!

In principle, I think the idea of the Labradoodle is fantastic- yes you can use a Standard poodle as a guide dog, but I believe generally their temperaments aren't as reliable for the job as the dopey Labrador. So the idea of a dog with the temperament of the Labrador but the coat of the Poodle is fantastic... honestly, I know the first litter was a failure but I wonder why they didn't continue with the development of the breed and breed enough dogs to ensure true to type breeding of what they wanted???

The Black Russian Terrier is an excellent example of a created breed- likewise the Cesky Terrier and even the Leonberger (though this one's a stretch... bred to look like a lion to match the Leonberg coat of arms LOL).

I also believe that in certain cases, cross breeding certain pedigrees has it's benefits- especially if it is done to eradicate or reduce health problems and strict records are kept, or in cases where breed numbers are numerically small or closely related. Also, interbreeding of some varieties is still permitted, although not in all countries.

Hey Nannas- what did you dog's cost you from the pound?? One of our show dogs was $400... half the pounds charge $300!!! However with our dog we have complete family history, full back up from the breeder, a healthy & happy well socialised dog..... I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy from the pound or rescue dogs but to automatically assume that because a dog is pedigree it will be expensive is plain WRONG!!!

My pure bred from the pet shop cost $800... same as my first show dog... my second showdog was less than that Yes, $1,000 or more for a dog seems a lot of money but it shouldn't take long to save up and there is always rescue if you don't want to pay that much. But I challenge you to find a designer mongrel in a pet shop for less... and with lifetime support

[geo]

ahaaaa ! you have it nannas, its okay to have spend squillions on death row dogs, (as long as they are bull breed of course ) but not a decent purchase price on a registered purebred that will hopefully have been tested for heriditary diseases in that breed, continued support from an ethical breeder & a health guarantee ?

maybe its just late, but your logic is rather contradictory !!

fifi

Better spend money on a living animal (especially on one who's nature has been pre determined by its breed! and literally has no chance) instead of some breeders egotistical view of how 'their breed should look', and of course how their dogs are better than others..? (don't get me wrong every puppy needs a good home)

Sorry, but come on, many breeders are purists, their dogs are the best.. etc...ect...

So what my dog comes with papers, do i believe them? does it matter? i do agree that what matters is health, and responsible breeding.. I love that some breeders only breed for themselves and not for anything else like Championship points etc..., and only every few years.

right now people in the UK are trying to breed the once extinct Alaunt (google british alaunt society) and they are cross breeding.

The bigger the gene pool the bigger the chance of survival as far species are concerned, though mixing can be detrimental and as far our responsibiltes go we shouldn't let that happen, and again i think responsible ownership is the key.

Breeding designer dogs is a no no, unless they are somehow helping mankind.

Breeding a line of specialist dogs to committed owners is different.

And that's not to say that some breeders don't deserve their credit, amstaff breeders i believe are some of the most committed people out there. and i'm sure many others are, except they don't deal with prejudice that bulldogs/rotti/dobes deal with.

I'm a little on the fence for xbreeds but hey that's my opinion.

[Skruffy n Flea]

k, i've read some replies to this topic *breathes*

i grew up on a farm and there were always dogs, working dogs ... dogs ... and they worked their butts off and did a frikken good job of it!

here's the thing ... my dad bred his best worker with another farmer's best worker irrespective of breed and he and the other farmers in the neighbourhood got damn good working dogs...

my thing is, if ya wanna show, breed or just own a purbred, then go for it...

BUT growing up on the farm i have a healthy respect for cross breeds and mongrels ... if trained and treated properly, and you are the right person for that 'breed', then go for it ... each to their own...

personally, i'm an advocate for rescue ... i love purepred dogs but my love for them is equal to cross breeds and mongrels. dogs are dogs...

its up to you to make the most of your friend ... irrespective of its heritage

JMO