Frankston Council (vic)

[Erny]

ETA- yes, all living pups must be registered with the ANKC here in Victoria.

Huh? I don't think so. What about cross-breeds? They aren't registered or recognised by ANKC. What about purebreeds that aren't registered (by owner choice or otherwise)? I know of no law that says they must be, if they are to live.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Erny

[menacebear]

ETA- yes, all living pups must be registered with the ANKC here in Victoria.

Huh? I don't think so. What about cross-breeds? They aren't registered or recognised by ANKC. What about purebreeds that aren't registered (by owner choice or otherwise)? I know of no law that says they must be, if they are to live.

I think SpikesPuppy ment all living pups from an ANKC breeding.

[Erny]

ETA- yes, all living pups must be registered with the ANKC here in Victoria.

Huh? I don't think so. What about cross-breeds? They aren't registered or recognised by ANKC. What about purebreeds that aren't registered (by owner choice or otherwise)? I know of no law that says they must be, if they are to live.

I think SpikesPuppy ment all living pups from an ANKC breeding.

Thanks Menacebear. I'm really sorry to be 'dumb' (mind is in other things so I'm multi-tasking here) ..... but to me an "ANKC breeding" means that it is a breed the ANKC recognises. I still do not believe that it is law that dog breeds recognised by ANKC have to be registered with the ANKC ??? I'm asking here, as I feel as though I've missed a point somewhere along the lines of the posts in this thread.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Erny

[Lindyx]

We are reg'ed with frankston council.

My male is intire, but Im also reg'ed with DogsVic for showing. So reg him wasnt a problem.

My female was on breeders terms for 2yrs and I didnt reg her at my address till she was desexed. I did have a chat with the ranger one day as he came around and saw Lara. He told me I needed to Reg her at mine and the breeders address. Never looked into it as she was desexed a few months later.

My vet is in Frankston and does not agree with desexing pup's before 6mths. So they write a letter for the pet owners, which Frankston council happily except. But at the 6mth mark the council rings the vet to make sure that pet has been desexed.

SP, I believe the pup needs to be on open reg with DogsVic for them to be reg'ed undesexed with Fston council.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Lindyx

[SpikesPuppy]

ETA- yes, all living pups must be registered with the ANKC here in Victoria.

Huh? I don't think so. What about cross-breeds? They aren't registered or recognised by ANKC. What about purebreeds that aren't registered (by owner choice or otherwise)? I know of no law that says they must be, if they are to live.

I think SpikesPuppy ment all living pups from an ANKC breeding.

Thanks Menacebear. I'm really sorry to be 'dumb' (mind is in other things so I'm multi-tasking here) ..... but to me an "ANKC breeding" means that it is a breed the ANKC recognises. I still do not believe that it is law that dog breeds recognised by ANKC have to be registered with the ANKC ??? I'm asking here, as I feel as though I've missed a point somewhere along the lines of the posts in this thread.

Sorry for the confusion- yes, I meant all puppies bred by DOGSVictoria/VCA Registered Breeders where both the sire and the dam are ANKC registered on the main register (or equivelant overseas registry) must be registered with the ANKC (done via DOGSVictoria). This is in the DOGS Victoria Code of Ethics, I don't think I ever said it was law???

ETA: Sorry, Erny- did not mean that to sound so narky :D

Edited January 24, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[SpikesPuppy]

Spikespuppy, as long as the new owners go to DogsVic and join themselves up and transfer the pups papers into their name there will be no problem. The owners do not have to be breeders, just financial members of DogsVic.

It's not cheap to join the VCA!! And what happens if they don't renew their membership? Do you know if the pup can remain in my name for DOGSvic purposes?

Breeds that are not ANKC recgonised such as american bulldogs, bull arabs, working border collies and kelpies for example are not exempt from the rules and have to be desexed even if they are fully papered with THEIR breed registery :D

That sucks ;) :

SP, I believe the pup needs to be on open reg with DogsVic for them to be reg'ed undesexed with Fston council.

Another *sigh*. I only want them entire until 6-9 months, geeze.

[Lindyx]

SP, Im sure Fston council will except a letter from a Vet like my Vet does.

[SpikesPuppy]

SP, Im sure Fston council will except a letter from a Vet like my Vet does.

Thanks, I will contact them and ask. Just so annoyed and concerned about potentially selling a pup there (this person is on my 'reserve' list if a buyer falls through). New puppy owners shouldn't have to jump through that many bloody hoops when it's something that is of no benefit to anyone

[menacebear]

SP, the worst of the rules come into play if the dog has been impounded and then all of this has to be done before it can be released. If the dog has been impounded then it normally has to be transferred into the owners name and out of the breeders. I don't know what would happen if the new owner didn't renew, the council only sends out a renewal in the mail each year and if that was paid on time then they would have no need to look further into it. If the dog was impounded one would hope that the new owners had already registered the dog with the council prior to impoundment and again it shouldnt be an issue. The council has accepted limited register pups before. Does it actually say main or limited on it or is it just the colour of the papers that is different?

Erny, the new rules are pretty much ment to stop/slow down back yard breeding etc. Even if you own 2 pure dogs of a breed that the ANKC recognises but the dogs have no papers then they will need desexing before council will accept the registration. To break it right down-in councils with these rules you will no longer be able to register any dog, pure or cross, with the council that does not have pedigree papers. And if you move into one of these councils from another it is classed as a new registration and desexing will be required for the animal to be registered with the council. Basically from now on if you want to own an entire dog it needs to be a pedigree dog only. No more oodles, BYB, petstore pups, gifts from friends. They all need desexing.

[BJean]

SP, the worst of the rules come into play if the dog has been impounded and then all of this has to be done before it can be released. If the dog has been impounded then it normally has to be transferred into the owners name and out of the breeders. I don't know what would happen if the new owner didn't renew, the council only sends out a renewal in the mail each year and if that was paid on time then they would have no need to look further into it. If the dog was impounded one would hope that the new owners had already registered the dog with the council prior to impoundment and again it shouldnt be an issue. The council has accepted limited register pups before. Does it actually say main or limited on it or is it just the colour of the papers that is different?

Erny, the new rules are pretty much ment to stop/slow down back yard breeding etc. Even if you own 2 pure dogs of a breed that the ANKC recognises but the dogs have no papers then they will need desexing before council will accept the registration. To break it right down-in councils with these rules you will no longer be able to register any dog, pure or cross, with the council that does not have pedigree papers. And if you move into one of these councils from another it is classed as a new registration and desexing will be required for the animal to be registered with the council. Basically from now on if you want to own an entire dog it needs to be a pedigree dog only. No more oodles, BYB, petstore pups, gifts from friends. They all need desexing.

And the owner needs to be an ONGOING member of Dogs Vic.

$107.70 initial joining fee (so the cost of your pet pedigree pup just got more expensive)

$76.50 singles $114.30 couples each year.

[BJean]

Everyone seems to be missing a key point here - if your dog is registered with the council (which ALL dogs are supposed to be), then you cannot be made to desex it. So if people are doing the right thing, they have nothing to worry about.

No, I think you are missing a few key points

If you would like to register your dog, the council will not register it unless the dog is desexed.

That is mandatory desexing.

Yes ALL dogs are supposed to be registered

so it puts new dog owners of Frankston in a pickle doesn't it?

Because unless they join Dogs Vic, then they will not be able to either keep their dog entire

or exercise their right to desex their puppy/dog at a healthy age.

Puts a mockery on responsible dog ownership and putting dogs' health first, doesn't it?

Not only that, there will be some Dogs Vic breeders who wil not sell a puppy to those living in Frankston and Kinston councils, because they will not risk the health and longterm welfare of their puppies by subjecting them to early desexing.

Why would they no longer sell to them? Wouldnt they register all puppies from the litter be it either main or limited? Even if they go to a pet home they will still have pedigree papers won't they? Thats all they need to provide to stop the animal from being desexed. I apologise if I'm wrong but I thought registered breeders registered all the pups in the litter?

NO pedigree papers are not sufficient - more is required by Council -

that they join and maintain a membership to the VCA.

Most family pet homes do not want the additional expense of having to join the VCA just to own a dog.

They outlay enough with puppy purchase price, vaccinations, training classes etc

They might say they will join the VCA (or have the best intentions of doing so), but I bet when the Council zealots answert their enquiry they will tell them, oh no your pouppy will be fine to desex as a baby puppy blah blah

So well done Council, you've made dog ownership more difficult again, congrats on achieveing your objective.

Edited January 24, 2010 by lilli

[SpikesPuppy]

The council has accepted limited register pups before. Does it actually say main or limited on it or is it just the colour of the papers that is different?

I can't find anything on my dog's papers saying main register- but I've never had a limited reg dog so not sure what it says on that...

I barely get any benefit from my yearly membership to DOGSVic and I show... why would a family who just wants a happy, healthy pet want to spend that much money ???

And what about dog's out on breeder's terms? Stud dogs in particular. It's too much invasion of privacy for one thing.

This is NOT going to stop backyard breeding or crossbreeding- the kids of people they are trying to stop wont register their pets anyway and wont care enough if the dog does get picked up to pay the release fee- they will just go get another dog!!!

[Steve]

Spikespuppy, as long as the new owners go to DogsVic and join themselves up and transfer the pups papers into their name there will be no problem. The owners do not have to be breeders, just financial members of DogsVic.

Breeds that are not ANKC recgonised such as american bulldogs, bull arabs, working border collies and kelpies for example are not exempt from the rules and have to be desexed even if they are fully papered with THEIR breed registery

So they can still breed cross bred dogs or unregistered dogs.By the way even a registered breeder can breed cross bred dogs as long as they dont use their papered dogs to do it. Lets be honest about this - all this does is increase income for VicDogs.

It gives Vicdogs an unfair market advantage, it discrimminates between one resident based on where they buy their dog and who bred it and any other and it denies the right of Australians to enjoy their basic National property rights conferred on us by our constitution. It assumes every person who is a CC registered breeder is the antz pantz - what a joke- and that everyone else are morons not capable of deciding on whats best for their animals.

If you want to put a monetary value on breeding dogs it also allows someone who is a Vic Dogs member to make money off breeding dogs and prevents someone who is not a member form doing the same. Its called National trade laws which take precedence over any state or local law.

[shel]

To give you some idea how far away from genuine need this is, from the NDN presentation from Frankston Council; "It’s our Way or the Highway"

There are 21,000 Dogs registered in Frankston

In 2008, 1561 dogs were impounded.

That means only 0.07% of the dog population are needing the services of their shelter each year.

Of those pets that are impounded, 1,308 went home. They have a 73.5% reclaim rate (much higher than the Australian average of about 50%)

So that means only 253 of the dogs weren't desired by, identified by or reclaimed by their owners.

That's less than one dog a day for the council pound to have to rehome.

It just doesn't sound like an overpopulation disaster worthy of such hardball legislation to me.

This legislation was enacted on the 1st September 2008

Over 220 dogs have been desexed through their pound system and returned to their owners.

Their attitude is clear. If you don't like it, f&ck you.

Edited January 24, 2010 by shel

[Purpley]

Ok I have sat and read, and re-read and frankly I am surprised that people aren't thinking this a good thing. So many are against BYB'ing and this is bound to reduce it somewhat in this area.

I, personally think that it is a good thing.

[Dame Aussie]

menacebear

It was passed through state goverment so as far as I'm aware it is legal.

Surely it is only a regulation, I don't think state governments can enact that type of law.

As far as I am aware, it is not legal

I suppose, as with the councils seizing dogs suspected of being put bulls which aren't, the council will probably need a wake up call in court, to the tune of a few hundred grand for costs etc. when someone calls them on it and they lose.

Is it only the unregistered dogs the council neuters? If the dog is entire and registered, what happens if it is roaming and goes to the pound?

I know with Brimbank Council who brought this same law in last year, if the dog is registered it does not need to be desexed, only if unregistered.

[Steve]

Being anti BYB doesnt mean I am O.K. with the welfare of dogs being over looked by some knee jerk reaction to a perceived pet over population which doesnt exist or that Im O.K. with denying people their basic rights or in favour of breed specific legislation.

I certainly dont condone a government making decisions which does nothing more than line the pockets of a non government organisation or promotes their product over and above any others.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Steve

[BJean]

Ok I have sat and read, and re-read and frankly I am surprised that people aren't thinking this a good thing. So many are against BYB'ing and this is bound to reduce it somewhat in this area.

I, personally think that it is a good thing.

"bound to" is good enough for you?

Apologies I'm narky, but I'm surprisesd with the aplomb people throw away their need to see cause and effect.

But dont let that hold you back:

Here's a report from the AVA

and guess what?

mandatory desexing doesn't work

and there is no pet overpopulation.

http://www.ccac.net.au/files/Mandatory_Des...he_ACT_Cats.pdf

MDL resulted in spectacular failure in the ACT and did not impact the number of cats euthanised one iota.

So lets bring in for MDL dogs and cats

because obviously we've delved into the recesses of the community think tanks

and this marevellous idea is the best we can come up with.

You know why?

Because if I keep telling you there's a pet overpopulation and the poor puppies and the kittens they're all dying, and non desexed dogs are more aggressive, and the bybs are going to buy out the tradingpost, and if you cared you would desex your pet

and if you wanted to make a difference you would desex your pet.

You will believe me.

??????????????????????????????????????

Edited January 24, 2010 by lilli

[BJean]

I have noted certain scurrilous and ill-informed statements made about the opinions I have expressed on the subject of Victoria’s mandatory desexing Laws (MDLs). My introduction to this subject (4 years ago) related to a client who was being forced by her local council to have her 9 week old puppy desexed. A superficial glance at the data produced by advocates of MDLs was something of a revelation: the arguments advanced did not make sense and most of the statistics were simply made up. These factors were amalgamated with a constant stream of vilification of the usual suspects: irresponsible owners, backyard breeders and pet shops. On a day to day basis I see all of these people and my observations could not be reconciled with the vitriolic rantings of the apparatchiks of the animal welfare politburo.

Time has proven me correct. There is now a solid momentum behind groups questioning the integrity of those running establishments that kill tens of thousands of animals each year whilst hiding behind the mantra that “there are not enough homes”. Australia has a declining pet population and it is in no small part due to the Wonks who have been misleading the public for decades.

Under Victoria’s MDLs a council official can knock on your door and impound your 13 week old pet if it is not desexed. You will not get it back unless you agree to it being desexed by a veterinarian you do not know and may never meet. Under some circumstances these laws enforce the desexing of 4 and 5 week old pets. If you want MDLs this is what you get. You get council officials who advise owners “he just need to be desexed or be put down”; officials who believe an undesexed animal is such a threat to the fabric of society that “he” has to be killed. Unfortunately Jed, it is all “legal” though there are exemptions available to those who bother to read the laws and understand them. Government and Council officials do not.

I anticipate a robust debate on the issue. Everyone has to pull together on this.

Hi Harry (couldn't find a non-xmas wave ;))

Great that you could redress the bias,

and have your say -

I hope the link I posted of you was not of detriment,

I thought it necessary so readers could see there was veterinary opposition to MDL -

Frankston Council is presenting MDL and early desexing as endorsed by the AVA.

L:)

Edited January 24, 2010 by lilli

[shoemonster]

Would Companion Dog Club (which is a form of VCA membership) membership plus VCA registered papers be enough for Frankston council? CDC is only $25 a year, and as far as the requirement goes you need to show them the membership at the time of registering the dog, not further along the track, so you would only need the first years membership

As another posted said also her vet wrote a letter saying the dog would be desexed at 6 months and they also accepted that

This law may not be perfect (working dogs and breeds not yet recognised at ANKC), but it shows that they are trying to do something about byb and cross breeding. It had obviously been in planning for a while before it was passed?