Technical Clicker/operant Conditioning Question

[corvus]

For adding distance and duration to an exercise, I am able to mark/reward at increasing intervals and/or distance yet keep the dog in position. I have also ensured that I taught a pause between click and treat. I believe that if you've conditioned the marker correctly, then you shouldn't have problems with creating secondary behaviours due to the delivery of the primary reinforcer.

Just curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion?

I've been watching Ted Turner seminars and he made the point that the longer the time between the behaviour and the reinforcer the more weak the link between behaviour and reinforcement. Obviously, bridging is a way to close that gap so it's always nice and close. Why would you want to condition it to be farther away again? It's just as easy to use a release word when you need it. I only feed the position when my dog is still learning the behaviour. Once they have it I don't need to do it anymore. Furthermore, what happens when you want to rapid fire treats? Does that erode the expectation of a pause between make and reward?

Incidentally, Ted Turner is a "feed the position" trainer as well. I'm yet to read or watch any material from a trainer that has worked with exotics that doesn't heavily use reward placement in teaching behaviours.

I think that if you click enough your dog comes to anticipate the click more than the treat. When my dogs really get going they often don't notice treats that fall on the ground during delivery. They just keep focused on you and skip to the next click. When they get like that it doesn't matter much what they do after the click. The click is the end of the behaviour. I think ideally that's the state you want when teaching something new. It's a high reward rate thing. If you're shaping something and it's going slower, though, then it might matter more.

[Nekhbet]

basically staranais, yes. A common thing you see is dogs that sit the go on a wonky sit they were taught to sit straight, then half flop

You have to be fast with clickers and treats, which is why I dont have a lot of clients use them. Especially for aggressive responses or dogs with that find it hard to pay attention reward as soon as you see compliance and they dont produce undesired behaviors. By the time most people click and treat it's all over the place.

[Kelpie-i]

I've been watching Ted Turner seminars and he made the point that the longer the time between the behaviour and the reinforcer the more weak the link between behaviour and reinforcement

This is but one person's view on it Corvus, pretty much the way Uta Bindells and Susan Garrett have differing views. Dog training is not an exact science, it's usually based on the beliefs of the trainer and what works for them.

It is very possible to teach a pause (an increase in time between the command, marker and the treat), especially if you are doing distance work. Just because you've taught the dog to sit doesn't mean you've taught the dog to sit and stay as you move away. This is but another criterion to the exercise that you need to teach. Therefore why the hell would you want to release the dog? If the dog succeeds in staying in position whilst you move say 2 metres away, you are able to click, walk back and treat the dog. You can then release the dog when you're ready.....simple.

They just keep focused on you and skip to the next click. When they get like that it doesn't matter much what they do after the click. The click is the end of the behaviou

Therefore you've conditioned to click to mean 'do something else', as opposed to click means treat. You've merely used a different approach.

Why would you want to condition it to be farther away again? It's just as easy to use a release word when you need it

Because, as mentioned, it makes it easier for teaching distance and duration work WITHOUT releasing the dog. Remember, I am using the clicker very differently to you.

Furthermore, what happens when you want to rapid fire treats?

You can still rapid fire, but this will happen upon your return.

Does that erode the expectation of a pause between make and reward?

Not at all, it actually builds anticipation.

[bedazzledx2]

Wow...I go to work and come home to a new topic with 2 pages already!!!!! Great topic

I absolutely love the clicker It's a fast, accurate event marker that used correctly gives the dog an adrenaline rush along with the treat (which can be play, food, toy or whatever turns your dog on)

Delivery of the treat depends on what I am training. For heeling I will click and treat in position. As the dog becomes more accomplished I will click and throw food in the Hansel and Gretel game but always with a release word of "get it" in an excited voice. If I'm working on straight fronts or perfect finishes I will click and treat in position. In shaping a behaviour I will click and throw food to get the dog up and away so I can get multiple repetitions, so for this, 'click ends the behaviour'. I shaped retrieve and clicked the smallest increments, so the click was, for example, for lifting the dumbell off the ground at ankle height. This meant he dropped the dumbell to receive the treat...click ends the behaviour. Later on when the behaviour is fully trained and I want to work on pick ups at a distance I will click just as his mouth goes on the dumbbell and he will drop it and come for his treat. It gives me a wonderful tool to say "that bit in the sequence was perfect...have a treat"

Bob Bailey said to use the clicker like a scalpel.....great advice.

Must change my signatur photo....holiday is over....back to training

So, I was reading or possibly watching something about dog training the other day, and the author made a point that really confused me. Hopefully one of the trainers here can shed some light on it.

The author said that when you use a marker/clicker/bridge to capture a behaviour, not only is the behavior you mark being reinforced by the primary reinforcer, but he reckoned that what the dog was doing at the moment you actually deliver the primary reinforcer was also being reinforced. So if your dog gives you a lovely heel position, and you mark/click that heel position, and the then dog jumps ahead of you to get his reward, and you feed the dog, then you're actually reinforcing both the heel position you clicked and the forging that the dog was doing afterwards.

Now, that's not something I've ever really thought through before. As far as I've learned, the whole idea behind using a marker is that it captures the behaviour the dog was doing at the exact time they heard the click. That's the main advantage of using a marker, since you can mark far faster than you can throw a piece of food or a toy at your dog, and to a clicker literate dog, that's supposed to be "the same" as if you'd managed to get the food to them immediately.

Yet this guy was saying that although yes, the behaviour you mark is being reinforced by your reward, the behaviour the dog is performing when the primary reinforcer is delivered is also being reinforced.

Does anyone have any insight as to whether this is actually correct? I have lots to think about if he is right.

[Longcoat]

basically staranais, yes. A common thing you see is dogs that sit the go on a wonky sit they were taught to sit straight, then half flop

You have to be fast with clickers and treats, which is why I dont have a lot of clients use them. Especially for aggressive responses or dogs with that find it hard to pay attention reward as soon as you see compliance and they dont produce undesired behaviors. By the time most people click and treat it's all over the place.

That's a response I would guess is from a working dog trainer, Schutzhund, security/protection Nekhbet???