Aidan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Statistically speaking, an alarmingly high number of horror stories are from owners who report that they use a "dominance theory" approach to dog training. Easy enough to say that "those ones got it wrong", but I'm sure they all thought they got it right and many of them no doubt still do, despite the evidence. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it might be more successful in a much larger pack (say, 7-10 dogs). Again, statistically speaking, fatal dog fights are most likely to occur between littermates of the same sex. From a practical point of view, if you plan to separate the dogs continuously you make an enormous amount of extra work just providing basic care and social contact. This could soon turn into a nightmare if one or both dogs isn't suited to this sort of living. There isn't much upside to this for you OR the dogs. If you are hell-bent on doing this then you need to focus on conditioning very reliable responses to commands to go to place (e.g crate or bed), drop, and recall. To be honest, living with a dog who will fight and working with a lot of dogs who will fight, I can't imagine why ANYONE would entertain the idea of willingly entering into an arrangement that produces a statistically higher probability of it occurring. Better to wait 18 months between pups, not only do you lower the risks dramatically, you get to enjoy puppies for TWICE AS LONG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess live die Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 i have had 2 females German Shepherds many years ago we got them as puppies 11 weeks i think they were it did take alot of work for my mum and dad but they did get along well. we did have to put move work into them more 1 on 1 as well as together time we did do the separation bit didnt work to well. but they got along great maybe we were just lucky we did have to rehome one tho many years later when my sister was born as one was not so nice you could see that if left alone with my sister would go for her. but as for the training and getting them together they did well just took alot more work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... Two very well respected and experienced breeders of Staffords have already replied in this thread. Lots of breeders run on litter mates to show so I'd say they have a better insight than you would think. Owning A Stafford myself there is no way in hell I would consider two same sex litter mates. I've come home to a dead dog in my yard before, trust me it's something you won't ever forget. If you have to get two, get one male one female. I think you need to actually do more research on the breed as you don't seem to understand about their ancestry. *pulls hair out* Would anyone else like to tell me what I don't know while we're at it? Considering I've already had such a warm welcome... I wasn't referring to the horror stories here, perse..but other ones I had read previously, in other places. I wasn't saying the people responding here weren't aware of training or pack mentality, I would obviously have no way of knowing what they do/don't know. Blech...sick of being on the defence, but it's a bit hard when I'm trying to do the right thing and I just get slammed left and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 but other ones I had read previously, in other places ah, OK.. it read as if you were referring to posts made on here..that's all warm welcome? you ain't SEEN warm,as it pertains to DOL....!! You are getting probably way more negative comment than you hoped/expected........purely because folks here have seen the worst, and are hoping it won't happen with you and your dog/s. The very experienced people on DOL have 'been there,done that, got the Tshirt'...and while it may seem as if they /we are bludgeoning you...it is done with good intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. To be honest, living with a dog who will fight and working with a lot of dogs who will fight, I can't imagine why ANYONE would entertain the idea of willingly entering into an arrangement that produces a statistically higher probability of it occurring. Better to wait 18 months between pups, not only do you lower the risks dramatically, you get to enjoy puppies for TWICE AS LONG! I don;t understand it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Blech...sick of being on the defence, but it's a bit hard when I'm trying to do the right thing and I just get slammed left and right. Why be on the defence at all? Nobody is 'slamming' you, they're just giving you their opinions and you're not liking the answers. That's the idea of a public forum. Did you want everyone to tell you it's a wonderful idea? Makes no difference to me or anyone else here how many pups you get. Get ten for all I care. Now if you said you were buying two blues to breed with every season and make big bucks, then you would understand the meaning of being 'slammed'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Statistically speaking, an alarmingly high number of horror stories are from owners who report that they use a "dominance theory" approach to dog training. Easy enough to say that "those ones got it wrong", but I'm sure they all thought they got it right and many of them no doubt still do, despite the evidence. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it might be more successful in a much larger pack (say, 7-10 dogs). Again, statistically speaking, fatal dog fights are most likely to occur between littermates of the same sex. From a practical point of view, if you plan to separate the dogs continuously you make an enormous amount of extra work just providing basic care and social contact. This could soon turn into a nightmare if one or both dogs isn't suited to this sort of living. There isn't much upside to this for you OR the dogs. If you are hell-bent on doing this then you need to focus on conditioning very reliable responses to commands to go to place (e.g crate or bed), drop, and recall. To be honest, living with a dog who will fight and working with a lot of dogs who will fight, I can't imagine why ANYONE would entertain the idea of willingly entering into an arrangement that produces a statistically higher probability of it occurring. Better to wait 18 months between pups, not only do you lower the risks dramatically, you get to enjoy puppies for TWICE AS LONG! Thanks. From what I have read so far it says to keep them seperate unless supervised, and then limit the time they are allowed to play together...during which time if any play fighting happens they're to be seperated. So..seperate feedings, seperate training, seperate sleeping, seperate walking. The goals of seperating them would be so that they don't get too attatched and form their own identity, and so that they don't become too "doggy", and that it makes it easier to establish the relationship with us. Keeping them seperate won't mean keeping them seperate areas alone all the time in this house, as there's the three of us I imagine we'd just alternate. Since I am at home during the day, I would aim for a schedule where I can give one attention while the other slept, and vice versa. I do understand why it isn't the ideal situation, and honestly I wouldn't have set out looking for 2 littermates at all...but it's the prediciment we've found ourselves in and now I want to learn what I can to deal with it the best way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 FD26, maybe help your case by letting everyone know that: -you have owned staffords before -that you have had multiple dogs before -that you know a good animal behaviourist to help you if things get out of hand -that you will be going twice a week to seperate puppy kindy and then obidience classes so both dogs get proper training. I think you are VERY brave, I have 3 dogs at home, 13 years 1.5 years and 2.5 months and I find that lot hard to manage/train/exercise, I have no idea how you will manage with two pups at once and I have no idea how breeders do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 FD26 - maybe people are only telling you the horror stories, because that's all they have experienced? It's a bit rude to have a go at people for not telling you the success stories, if in fact there just hasn't been anyone who's experienced one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 What are the 2 personalities of these pups so far?? What comments has the breeder made about these 2 getting on together?? It seems the answers your getting arent what you want to hear & if the research you have done is the same one would think that would be enough to sends alarm bells & go about it differently. We run boarding kennels & aboard alot of staffs,We are lucky & have fencing they cant eat through as there notorious fence eaters so if building runs make sure the materials are staffy proof. My son has taken a liking to one of them, and before when we had just the one dog he used to feel quite left out as he'd be sleeping in our room or spending time with us. I think he's old enough now to take on the responsibility of having "his own" pet (of course not sole responsibility). Although i cant quite get this. Your getting 2 dogs because your son felt left out when you had one?? Your son is only 9 now ,im sure he was way to young to get that jealous prior to that . i just hope for your sons sake he doesnt end up in the middle . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 Blech...sick of being on the defence, but it's a bit hard when I'm trying to do the right thing and I just get slammed left and right. Why be on the defence at all? Nobody is 'slamming' you, they're just giving you their opinions and you're not liking the answers. That's the idea of a public forum. Did you want everyone to tell you it's a wonderful idea? Makes no difference to me or anyone else here how many pups you get. Get ten for all I care. Now if you said you were buying two blues to breed with every season and make big bucks, then you would understand the meaning of being 'slammed'. lol Sorry, it was just that I made it pretty clear in my initial post that I wasn't asking to be told not to get them. It's pretty frustrating when that's the brunt of the advice being given. I didn't want to hear it not because I want everyone to tell me it's a great idea - I don't expect that. Just that I have come to terms with the fact that it's not ideal and now I'm trying to move past that and onto how we make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 how we make it work. and that's the catch It may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Good on you for doing the research, just make sure your conclusions aren't biased by what you really want (today). Yes, there are things you can do that will give you the best chance of success. I've already mentioned that "dominance theory" is the leadership method most reported in failed inter-dog relationships, and suggested some things you should very strongly condition. I had someone ask me exactly the same question about 18 months ago. I gave the same answers. They discounted my advice, went through a lot of heart-ache, and now one of the dogs has been rehomed. I rang them up and said "I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!" (just kidding about the last bit, but you know I wanted to!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 If you look at the advice that has been given, the people who have done it are the breeders who kennel the dogs, not people who want 2 pet dogs, especially one for a child (who might be extremely responsible but accidents can and do happen every day, doors dont latch, etc) They are not telling you how you can make it work, because it more than likely wont work, Is there no way you could get a dog and a bitch, I know you say you are very attached to the pups, but surely it would be easier to bond to a new pup before you get it, than to deal with the many many potential disasters that could come from this combination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 FD26, maybe help your case by letting everyone know that:-you have owned staffords before -that you have had multiple dogs before -that you know a good animal behaviourist to help you if things get out of hand -that you will be going twice a week to seperate puppy kindy and then obidience classes so both dogs get proper training. I think you are VERY brave, I have 3 dogs at home, 13 years 1.5 years and 2.5 months and I find that lot hard to manage/train/exercise, I have no idea how you will manage with two pups at once and I have no idea how breeders do it. I think you might be right, no one has a clue about what I do/don't know. My partner grew up with staffys, and most of our family has them. We've had one in the past as well, and I've also had a cattle dog and a pit bull previously (in the states). But no, I have never had more than one dog at a time of my own - which is probably why I had no idea what I was initially getting into by deciding on littermates! However, a few people in our family have multiple staffies and are a good source of information. We've also lost a dog in an attack (with a neighbouring bloodhoundxmastiff), so we're very paranoid puppy parents, and we won't leave anything to chance. We have always had multiple cats - but obviously they're quite different from dogs (with their own set of problems!) We'll definitely be going to obidience classes (seperately) and will seek out advice at the slightest sign of a problem...which, I don't think we'll have any problem identifying. I agree with you that it's brave. It's actually daunting. As silly as it may sound I just really feel like these dogs have picked us, and I'm determined to make it work now, and truly have faith in our ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 how we make it work. and that's the catch It may not. Yes, unfortunetly that's true. But that would also be the case if we got one down the track as well. If all fails, ultimately we would have to rehome one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks. From what I have read so far it says to keep them seperate unless supervised, and then limit the time they are allowed to play together...during which time if any play fighting happens they're to be seperated. So..seperate feedings, seperate training, seperate sleeping, seperate walking. The goals of seperating them would be so that they don't get too attatched and form their own identity, and so that they don't become too "doggy", and that it makes it easier to establish the relationship with us. None of those rules are hard and fast. Play fighting is useful, dogs learn from it. I would never separate dogs just because they are play-fighting. I would also prefer dogs who can eat together and don't resource guard. I also like to be able to train my dogs together, stuff that they already know. In fact, the more they can do together, the better - so long as they aren't "attached at the hip" and so long as they pay attention to you FIRST. Keeping them seperate won't mean keeping them seperate areas alone all the time in this house, as there's the three of us I imagine we'd just alternate. Since I am at home during the day, I would aim for a schedule where I can give one attention while the other slept, and vice versa. There's three in my house and I'm telling you from personal experience, it's not that simple. There are ways around it. I will have my dogs do long downs while I'm watching TV, for e.g Think you can train a 1 hour long down with two dogs who will fight? I do understand why it isn't the ideal situation, and honestly I wouldn't have set out looking for 2 littermates at all...but it's the prediciment we've found ourselves in Not quite true unless I've missed something. You've put down a deposit on two pups. I would honestly give up one of the deposits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess live die Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 i am not a breeder and i so do look up to them and many cases my not work out but then if you dont try you wont know. i mean we were very lucky where others may not have been. but thats just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) FD: I do understand why it isn't the ideal situation, and honestly I wouldn't have set out looking for 2 littermates at all...but it's the prediciment we've found ourselves in and now I want to learn what I can to deal with it the best way possible. One of your own choosing.. and one surely, that isn't inevitable? Why can't you tell the breeder you've reconsidered and have decided one pup is all you really want to handle now? Pups are meant to bring joy to a family, not resignation that life is going to be difficult from now on. This may be totally preventable heartbreak waiting to happen. I simply don't get why you can't change your mind and take only one pup now? Getting a dog knowing that you may have to rehome it makes no sense to me.. and that's assuming you still have two live dogs if they get into a serious fight. Read about how people keep severely dog aggressive dogs apart.. and work from there. As SBT123 has pointed out, it may not be a simple as having two dogs in separate parts of the house or one crated. They'll go through doors and crates to get to each other if they are deadly serious in their intent. Despite all your best efforts this may not work - so why proceed? How easy do you think it will be to find a good home for a Stafford with a history of fighting? Whatever you do, desex both of them if you decide to get them or the single dog if you go that path. Edited January 21, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 Whatever you do, desex both of them if you decide to get them or the single dog if you go that path. Just curious about what led you to this comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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