FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi, We've recently put a deposit on two SBT littermates, who are both male. After the decision was made I did some research on raising littermates, and was surprised at how dire the situation can be. I'm not asking to be told to get only one of them, by the way...as I know that's the first advice most people will probably give. We have decided to go through with getting them both, and realise it's going to take a whole lot more work that we initially bargained for. What I am looking for is some advice on training them. After reading up, we're planning on crate training them (seperately) from the get go, and socialising/training them seperately. I'm just trying to sort out the logisitcs of such a situation...and also wondering if anyone else who has raised littermates, or even staffys close in age, has any tips on what to (or not to!) do?? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretel Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'm rather surprised that the breeder didn't give you some insights into taking on the two together. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I can't think of any ethical breeder who would sell you two Staffords of the same sex out of the same litter if you haven't got the knowledge and experience to know how bad it could be without asking. Two Staffords of the same sex can be bad enough (be they 2 dogs or 2 bitches), two the same age & sex is almost always destined for disaster. ETA: I have raised Staffords of similar ages, what I did was separate them permanently at about 15 months when they decided to murder each other. I currently have two adult bitches about 6 weeks apart in age. Unless they are both on a leash each held by different people they are separated by a crate or a fence. I have previously had two males (both entire) who lived on the same property for 11 months and never once saw each other when at home - they saw each other twice, both times at dog shows, and lined each other up for the kill. Please don't do it is the only advice I can give you. Edited January 21, 2010 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) My first call would also be the breeder - as they have experience in multiple dogs ..and running on puppies... I have no advice for you other than that...except perhaps desex earlier,rather than later. Edited January 21, 2010 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) The only advice I can offer is that you have a rehoming strategy for one of them as a back up plan if they end up taking a violent dislike to one another. I would have your yard configured to seperate them whenever you're not there and suggest you learn about how to break up a dog fight. Oh and take out pet insurance to cover the bills from fights. Worst dog fight I've ever seen was between two male Staffords who were littermates. Two grown men stuggled to part them.. how do you think you'll fare? Did the breeder even discuss the possiblity of fighting with you? I struggle to understand why anyone would want to have two pets who cannot be walked, transported or share time together. Even experienced breeders wouldn't try this combination. Edited January 21, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I can't think of any ethical breeder who would sell you two Staffords of the same sex out of the same litter if you haven't got the knowledge and experience to know how bad it could be without asking.Two Staffords of the same sex can be bad enough (be they 2 dogs or 2 bitches), two the same age & sex is almost always destined for disaster. ETA: I have raised Staffords of similar ages, what I did was separate them permanently at about 15 months when they decided to murder each other. I currently have two adult bitches about 6 weeks apart in age. Unless they are both on a leash each held by different people they are separated by a crate or a fence. I have previously had two males (both entire) who lived on the same property for 11 months and never once saw each other when at home - they saw each other twice, both times at dog shows, and lined each other up for the kill. Please don't do it is the only advice I can give you. What she says. I've raised several litter mates, this includes Stafford males, Pointer males and Stafford pups of the opposite sex. It's a bloody lot of hard work when it comes to training and socialisation to ensure the needs of the dogs are met and to ensure they are both well adjusted individuals. You are, in all probability going to need the ability to seperate them. They can and will most likely take a dislike to each other at some stage. If you are purchasing them as family pets, then I'd forget about it. There's a real chance that you will need to keep them seperate at some stage and this is a real juggling act. It can be especially dangerous if you have children in the home, it's very easy for them to leave a gate open, open a door at the wrong time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 If you are purchasing them as family pets, then I'd forget about it. There's a real chance that you will need to keep them seperate at some stage and this is a real juggling act. It can be especially dangerous if you have children in the home, it's very easy for them to leave a gate open, open a door at the wrong time. wise words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 I can't think of any ethical breeder who would sell you two Staffords of the same sex out of the same litter if you haven't got the knowledge and experience to know how bad it could be without asking.Two Staffords of the same sex can be bad enough (be they 2 dogs or 2 bitches), two the same age & sex is almost always destined for disaster. ETA: I have raised Staffords of similar ages, what I did was separate them permanently at about 15 months when they decided to murder each other. I currently have two adult bitches about 6 weeks apart in age. Unless they are both on a leash each held by different people they are separated by a crate or a fence. I have previously had two males (both entire) who lived on the same property for 11 months and never once saw each other when at home - they saw each other twice, both times at dog shows, and lined each other up for the kill. Please don't do it is the only advice I can give you. What she says. I've raised several litter mates, this includes Stafford males, Pointer males and Stafford pups of the opposite sex. It's a bloody lot of hard work when it comes to training and socialisation to ensure the needs of the dogs are met and to ensure they are both well adjusted individuals. You are, in all probability going to need the ability to seperate them. They can and will most likely take a dislike to each other at some stage. If you are purchasing them as family pets, then I'd forget about it. There's a real chance that you will need to keep them seperate at some stage and this is a real juggling act. It can be especially dangerous if you have children in the home, it's very easy for them to leave a gate open, open a door at the wrong time. We plan on keeping them seperate unless they're under supervision for at least the first 12 months. We'll be buying two seperate kennels. And down the track when they're older we have plenty of room to keep them seperate as well. Children aren't really an issue, as we only have one (very responsible) 9 year old. Look, I know there's a lot more work involved, but we're willing and able to put that in. I'm just looking for insight from people who've done it successfully. You said you've raised male SBT littermates, do you have any advice on the actual process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 Yep, my advice is like Sandra's and it's don't do it. Buy one now give it a couple of years and then by your next one. Those those dogs that I know of that have had the massive fights have been the litter mates or those that are close to one another in age. I know of owners who have come home from work to find a dog that has torn the face off another , these dogs were seperated by a chain link fence and still managed it. Males can a will fight to the death. They will commonly break their canines on fences, which will eventually require them to be removed. Keeping them seperate for the first 12 months isn't going to help you any. Even a quick scuffle between dogs or bitches that normally tolerate each other can result in a huge amount of damage in a split second. If you want two now, then buy a dog and a bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I had no advice... but after reading that you are keeping them seperate except when supervised..this raises some flags for me It seems that this may not be a good thing, as they will have an abnormal sort of socialisation in their formative few months? Feel free to correct me...but I would think pups would have an excitement/drive thing happening every time they are re introduced??? Or??? It is after 12 months when they are strong and mature that the serious fighting will be just that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'll ask. What makes you want two pups anyway? They certainly aren't going to be company for one another in the longer term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) We have working dogs (sheepdogs) a few lots of littermates... however, not staffies.....( who, I believe need different handling to what I have ever done)and brought up with plenty of space and work to occupy their little brains.. and make them tired ;)We still have had the odd problem....scuffles only,usually. most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality they do? Edited January 21, 2010 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... You do realise that responses have been made by breeders and trainers in this thread? I've seen what can happen with my own eyes. .as have others. Have you? Ask any experienced dog trainer about raising two littermates and the first advice will be "don't". Ask them about raising two male littermates who are dogs of fighting ancestry and they'll tell you "absolutely don't". Its BECAUSE people understand pack mentality that they're advising against this. The best recipe for conflict in a pack is two dogs that match each other in age, size and gender. Precisely what you're proposing to do in a breed high on reactivity and long on tenacity. What Cesar Milan can do and what the average pet owner can do are world's apart. You're hoping for the best possible outcome. I'd strongly recommend you prepare for the worst one. No amount of socialisation and training will change a breed's predisposition for tenacity. That's what you're buying into. You're opting for a very high risk option here. You may end up with two total cream puffs but the odds are not in your favour. Get that pet insurance. And get private health insurance too. Microsurgery costs a bomb. Edited January 21, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'll ask.What makes you want two pups anyway? They certainly aren't going to be company for one another in the longer term. We seem to get most of our animals in pairs in this house! There are a few reasons behind wanting two. First of all was the impulse of falling in love with the pair of them (as it usually goes). After consideration, we have the time at the moment to put into two puppies...as where we might not down the track. We've always known we wanted two eventually. My MIL has a pair of older staffies and they get on famously. It seems to me they are happier to have each other than other staffies who are just the one. My son has taken a liking to one of them, and before when we had just the one dog he used to feel quite left out as he'd be sleeping in our room or spending time with us. I think he's old enough now to take on the responsibility of having "his own" pet (of course not sole responsibility). All of that was before we'd realised the problems that can be associated with littermates, and it was something thought about for awhile once we did. I do believe that if we put in the hard yards now they have a good chance of getting along in the future, otherwise I wouldn't even consider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I've seen what can happen with my own eyes. .as have others PF- that takes me back to my Guide Dog Training days...when we had a litter of 6 mth old pups in . 3 of them attacked and partially disembowelled one other In a couple of minutes. Urk. nasty memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 We had two male Stafford littermates attack one another at dog training.. they'd get one off the other and it would go right back in. I kid you not, it went on for what seemed like hours (probably only a couple of minutes) and only ended when both handlers (young adult males) end up LYING on their dogs to subdue them. Picture a 9 year old in the middle of that. Shite it was awful. Vet trips for both dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... No , the majority of the horror stories come from people who are very well versed in the breed, are good trainers and can manage a pack. Precautions and early training will most likely not be enough to stop them from challenging one another. These are just some of the things that will cease to happen in your home if your two dogs decide not to tolerate one another * no more rides in the car, unless in seperate crates or behind a cargo barrier * no more walks together on leash, unless two adults are prepared to go together * no sitting on the lounge or enjoying their time with you together in the house * no play time together in the yard what you will be doing * constantly checking that doors to dog runs and gates are shut properly * constantly asking the family where X dog is before you let Y dog out of it's run, open a gate or door or let it into the house * checking for yourself that x is indeed where the family says he is what you will hope * is that the family didn't stuff up what they've told you * that x is indeed where you think he is * and if you do stuff up, that you can somehow seperate them before the damage is excessive Just out of interest what colour are the two pups ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD26 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Share Posted January 21, 2010 I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... No , the majority of the horror stories come from people who are very well versed in the breed, are good trainers and can manage a pack. Precautions and early training will most likely not be enough to stop them from challenging one another. These are just some of the things that will cease to happen in your home if your two dogs decide not to tolerate one another * no more rides in the car, unless in seperate crates or behind a cargo barrier * no more walks together on leash, unless two adults are prepared to go together * no sitting on the lounge or enjoying their time with you together in the house * no play time together in the yard what you will be doing * constantly checking that doors to dog runs and gates are shut properly * constantly asking the family where X dog is before you let Y dog out of it's run, open a gate or door or let it into the house * checking for yourself that x is indeed where the family says he is what you will hope * is that the family didn't stuff up what they've told you * that x is indeed where you think he is * and if you do stuff up, that you can somehow seperate them before the damage is excessive Just out of interest what colour are the two pups ? From what I've read so far it's not recommended to walk them etc. together in the first place, at least until they're older. One is brindle, and the other is black/white pied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted January 21, 2010 Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I guess I've made a mistake in thinking this was the right place to look for advice. I know there are horror stories, obviously this is what has led me to realise I need to take precautions and start training early. But I also know it can be done successfully, and that's the help I'm looking for. It seems to me that most of the horror stories come from people who are utterly unaware of proper training for littermates and pack mentality. Which is why I'm asking questions. Geez, damned if you do, damned if you don't... Two very well respected and experienced breeders of Staffords have already replied in this thread. Lots of breeders run on litter mates to show so I'd say they have a better insight than you would think. Owning A Stafford myself there is no way in hell I would consider two same sex litter mates. I've come home to a dead dog in my yard before, trust me it's something you won't ever forget. If you have to get two, get one male one female. I think you need to actually do more research on the breed as you don't seem to understand about their ancestry. Edited January 21, 2010 by Clyde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now