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[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[kateshep]

Bump

[Jeff Jones]

Interesting interview, thanks for posting.

[Staranais]

OK, I'll bite. These are just my own thoughts on reading the article. I'm not terribly knowledgeable about GSD, and know nothing at all about Manfred Heyne,so could be misguided in my thoughts. But noone else was talking!

It's interesting to read his opinion, and he is clearly passionate and knowledgeable about his dogs. And I personally prefer the working style GSD to the showline GSDs that I've met, and am concerned about health issues in that breed, so I guess I agree with some of what he's saying there as well.

However, I am confused by a few things he says.

Firstly, he appears to focus entirely on herding, and he doesn't talk much about the other uses that the GSD has today. I guess that's understandable, since from what I can tell, he seems to have spent most of his life working with herding dogs. But the GSD is not longer just a herder, it has to be one of the most versatile dog breeds in the world today, I have seen GSD used for police work, security, guide work, detection work, SAR work, etc. He does not discuss any of that.

Does he not think that the other uses of the GSD matter, as long as it remains a good herding dog? Or is it because he believes that a GSD selected specifically for herding is going to automatically be a great police dog/security dog/guide/detection dog as well? But if that is the case, then why don't other specialist herders such as huntaways, kelpies and border collies dominate the police and security industries?

Surely the modern GSD is a more versatile dog than it was 100 years ago, it is no longer just a specialist herding dog? I would suggest that today herding isn't necessarily the only or the best way to test the worth of a GSD, since it's no longer a specialist herder.

What does everyone else think?

He also seems to be upset by the way people need to "bribe" their dogs into working with praise, food, toys, sticks, e-collars, etc. I could be wrong, but from the interview it seems like he hasn't actually worked his dogs in anything except herding? In herding, from what I know, access to the sheep is its own reward so food/toys aren't necessary. On the farms I've worked on, the herding dogs were never rewarded for working with sheep - if they didn't want to work the sheep, they simply weren't kept around to be bred from. That's different to something like obedience, most dogs don't find heeling or down stays particularly fun, so if you want fast and flashy obedience, then you need to reward the dog for it. Same with detection work, dogs don't find the smell of explosives particularly interesting, they only hunt them out because they know that finding that particular scent gets them a reward. I don't think that's a flaw in the dog's breeding? It's more to do with the activity itself?

What do other people think? Is it possible, or desirable, to breed a GSD that works just because the handler says so? Or is it simply more effective to train some things with extrinsic rewards like food, toys, praise?

I am also a little worried by the way that he insists that his own dog is the "very last" of the original breed, which seems a bit myopic, and the way he seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder:

"Although I have won more Sieger titles by far than anyone else in the hundred year history of the SV, no one there knows me anymore!!!"

"Even though I am the only one in the SV to win the National Herding Championship title thirteen times and ought to have won it at least five times more"

It just makes me take the rest of what he's saying less seriously, you know, since it seems like he has a personal grudge there? Although perhaps that's just a bad translation of what he's actually trying to say, who knows.

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[Longcoat]

Hi Kateshep,

I was participating in another thread about drive and thinking how years ago when I started training in the 70's as a teenager there was a lot more importance placed upon a dog's natural working ability as nowdays, so many more training methods have been discovered to build drive and many cases it works reasonably well. I understand what Manfred Heyne is saying using balls, food etc to encourage or almost bribe a dog to work because I often feel the same seeing dogs training today in these methods as in my early days, many of these dogs requiring this type of training to encourage drive would have been rejected and deemed by the old school trainers as no good and lacking natural working ability. The selection criteria for a working dog was a lot harsher back then and a dog wasn't given a lot of chances to prove it's self.

Many of the old GSD trainers in Australia did regard herding abilty as a test of breed correctness with the belief that if a GSD could herd, it had the correct temperament, if one couldn't herd, avoid any pups from those breedings???. Also the SV in Germany accept an HDH herding title instead of a Schutzhund title to enter a Korung (breed survey), but there is a protection routine at the Korung that a herding titled dog must pass. All GSD's in Germany must have either a Schutzhund or herding title to be shown or bred under the SV registery to confirm the dog has workability.

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[Longcoat]

Hi Kateshep,

I was participating in another thread about drive and thinking how years ago when I started training in the 70's as a teenager there was a lot more importance placed upon a dog's natural working ability as nowdays, so many more training methods have been discovered to build drive and many cases it works reasonably well. I understand what Manfred Heyne is saying using balls, food etc to encourage or almost bribe a dog to work because I often feel the same seeing dogs training today in these methods as in my early days, many of these dogs requiring this type of training to encourage drive would have been rejected and deemed by the old school trainers as no good and lacking natural working ability. The selection criteria for a working dog was a lot harsher back then and a dog wasn't given a lot of chances to prove it's self.

Agree Longcoat, ;)

Many of the old GSD trainers in Australia did regard herding abilty as a test of breed correctness with the belief that if a GSD could herd, it had the correct temperament, if one couldn't herd, avoid any pups from those breedings???. Also the SV in Germany accept an HDH herding title instead of a Schutzhund title to enter a Korung (breed survey), but there is a protection routine at the Korung that a herding titled dog must pass. All GSD's in Germany must have either a Schutzhund or herding title to be shown or bred under the SV registery to confirm the dog has workability.

I haven't heard that about gsds in australia before....It is interesting hearing what many old timers say about schutzhund and herding titles in past times. As in the above interview with Manfred where he critisises the falling standards in obtaining working titles in herding, the same tone continues to ring about schutzhund and the protection component at the Sieger show.

Many breeds had working origins that today are seldom required and probably isn't overly important in some breeds that their working ability is preserved. But the GSD is one breed that is still used as a working dog in reasonably large volumes especially in search and rescue, police K9 units and security which in my opinion needs to be preserved. It was only Thursday night's Channel 7 News in Adelaide that featured a section on the police K9 squad requesting GSD's for police evaluation and training and specifically mentioned that not "all" GSD's are up to the task.

I have been fortunate enough on two previous occassions to have attended a police K9 recruitment and testing day with around 20 odd dogs tested, only 2 or 3 resulted in the perception of having K9 potential which amounts to a massive percentage of failures I think is rather sad. Speaking with one of the K9 trainers, he said that the amount of unsuitable GSD's is growing as time evolves which more confirms that working ability within the breed shows a definite decline.

Germany did water down the workability tests at Seiger shows in regard to the Schutzhund component to enable more dogs to pass the tests, but at least the remaining tests are generally a guide that a pass does confirm some workability, but in Australia we have virtually no workability testing at all ;) . I can't for the life of me, understand why we should automatically assume without workability testing that show results determine a quality breeding . I can't see how workability can be preserved in the breed when workability testing isn't conducted either???. However, we do have a small minority of breeders dedicated in maintaining the breeds workablity who I truely admire their efforts

[Jeff Jones]

I have been fortunate enough on two previous occassions to have attended a police K9 recruitment and testing day with around 20 odd dogs tested, only 2 or 3 resulted in the perception of having K9 potential which amounts to a massive percentage of failures I think is rather sad. Speaking with one of the K9 trainers, he said that the amount of unsuitable GSD's is growing as time evolves which more confirms that working ability within the breed shows a definite decline.

Which is why Belgian Malinois are becoming the most common used breed by Police, Military and Correctional departments around the world.

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[kateshep]

deleted.

Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[Longcoat]

I have been fortunate enough on two previous occassions to have attended a police K9 recruitment and testing day with around 20 odd dogs tested, only 2 or 3 resulted in the perception of having K9 potential which amounts to a massive percentage of failures I think is rather sad. Speaking with one of the K9 trainers, he said that the amount of unsuitable GSD's is growing as time evolves which more confirms that working ability within the breed shows a definite decline.

Which is why Belgian Malinois are becoming the most common used breed by Police, Military and Correctional departments around the world.

That's exactly what's happening Jeff, and although personally I have nothing but admiration for the performance of a good Mal, it's sad to see my beloved GSD loosing it's grip in the process

[Longcoat]

Germany did water down the workability tests at Seiger shows in regard to the Schutzhund component to enable more dogs to pass the tests, but at least the remaining tests are generally a guide that a pass does confirm some workability, but in Australia we have virtually no workability testing at all . I can't for the life of me, understand why we should automatically assume without workability testing that show results determine a quality breeding ;) . I can't see how workability can be preserved in the breed when workability testing isn't conducted either???. However, we do have a small minority of breeders dedicated in maintaining the breeds workablity who I truely admire their efforts

If enough breeders were concerned about working ability you'd think they would have some kind of test organised by now........, so no they don't seem to care/or ignorance plays a part. The working people are doing their own thing outside of the GSDCA.

The GSDCA have no interest in preserving working ability and are the core group that channel the breeders not to be concerned about it either. The GSDCA are so involved in destroying the breeds working ability, like the working people and others doing their best to maintain the breed standards are the GSDCA's most disliked group. How can a controlling body (GSDCA) condemn and block the preservation of the working ability of a working dog makes no sense to me as to how they get away with it:confused:

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[Longcoat]

The GSDCA have no interest in preserving working ability and are the core group that channel the breeders not to be concerned about it either. The GSDCA are so involved in destroying the breeds working ability, like the working people and others doing their best to maintain the breed standards are the GSDCA's most disliked group. How can a controlling body (GSDCA) condemn and block the preservation of the working ability of a working dog makes no sense to me as to how they get away with it:confused:

Whilst I agree with what you have said the problem is all over the world- If the standards in Germany were higher with showlines they would be on a par with the working lines. What I'm saying is I'm not sure what the aussies are doing is any worse than the whats happenend with the german showlines- yes they have to do schutzhund but is it really worth it at all if it's not to a decent standard ? what are they preserving ? People moan that the GSDCA has lied to the SV about the legal status of Schutzhund in Australia- but if the SV really cared about working ability it wouldn't take much to find out the truth.

I disagree with the common understanding that "all" showlines have little working ability and such a belief is wrong. There are many lines in the traditional black and tan German dogs that work well in various applications and the majority of the Australian police K9's have been showlines in the past. Worldwide, good working GSD's are harder to find and come at a greater cost and is one reason why some law enforcement agencies have swapped to the Belgian Malinios, not because the Malinios is a better dog, in fact, many maintain that a "good" GSD is still their ultimate choice having worked both breeds.

Any form of working test has to produce a better dog than no testing at all which occurs here in Australia, and no workability testing has no other potential than to allow the breeding of dogs that shouldn't be bred. It wouldn't I image be a too difficult a task to find lines of German showdogs that would out perform our dogs in working ability even though the SV testing has been watered down from where it used to be. I have seen over the years too many Australian showline dogs bred that would no way come close to passing the SV breed survey standards and had these dog's been German tested, their breed worthiness would be rejected where here, the same dogs can go on to be awarded as champion stock which is the difference.

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep

[Longcoat]

I disagree with the common understanding that "all" showlines have little working ability and such a belief is wrong. There are many lines in the traditional black and tan German dogs that work well in various applications and the majority of the Australian police K9's have been showlines in the past. Worldwide, good working GSD's are harder to find and come at a greater cost and is one reason why some law enforcement agencies have swapped to the Belgian Malinios, not because the Malinios is a better dog, in fact, many maintain that a "good" GSD is still their ultimate choice having worked both breeds.

Any form of working test has to produce a better dog than no testing at all which occurs here in Australia, and no workability testing has no other potential than to allow the breeding of dogs that shouldn't be bred. It wouldn't I image be a too difficult a task to find lines of German showdogs that would out perform our dogs in working ability even though the SV testing has been watered down from where it used to be. I have seen over the years too many Australian showline dogs bred that would no way come close to passing the SV breed survey standards and had these dog's been German tested, their breed worthiness would be rejected where here, the same dogs can go on to be awarded as champion stock which is the difference.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thought there was absolutes in any bloodlines However many Police breeding programs are centred around the WLs, even so they can't seem to compete with what many feel is a better consistency, lower HD in Malinois genetics, not just costs of buying.

A test is better than nothing I suppose but unless it is realliy testing for necessary qualities it is not doing its job. I am not so sure about working ability afterall many aussie breeders import many German bloodlines into australia, direct progeny from top VA & V dogs with Schutzhund titles. So our dogs are not tested in working ability and Germany's somewhat tested but they all come from similiar/same bloodlines, I can't imagine comparatively how there would be any huge differences from each other.

This is what I was taught from several working dog breeders Kateshep:

A GSD that can achieve a SchH3 title and pass the the German Korung is a fairly reasonable dog. Perhaps not the best sporting dog or the best dog at anything in particluar, but a dog good enough to train for reasonable performance in any discipline suited to the breed. One of these dogs mated to a good titled bitch would a provide a good chance of the progeny also possessing similar quality, but not necessarily all of them. Generally, you can't expect the progeny to be any better than the parents, and they can often not produce any of the parents best traits at all.

The first scenario is someone imports a German SG rated untitled male from one of these titled breedings which sound good on paper, but the question is, what traits did this "untitled" progeny bring to the table in reflection of it's parents???, that we never know other than trotting around an Australian show ring, the dog is never worked or evaluated properly, but it is bred???. It may be a great dog or could be a washout from that litter and if the German's let the dog go, good chance it wasn't the best in the litter, but that we will never really know???.

In the instance that it wasn't a very good dog at all, it will be mated to a local bitch which raises the question how good is the bitch???, that we don't know either because the local bitch has never been worked or assessed properly either???. Looking into the bitch ancestory lines on the female side, there hasn't been a titled bitch involved over seven generations like a revolving door, imported or titled males are put to local bitches of no working credibilty. Some of the progeny from these breedings can have good conformation but are otherwise faulty from a working potential and again are bred. As time evolves through generations of breeding progeny from untitled parentage, the working ability disappears.

[kateshep]

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Edited April 3, 2010 by kateshep