Vet Education

[mlc]

If you want to vet bash, or debate specialist fees, please feel free to start you own thread. Frankly, I'm bored of it.

sucks when your thread gets hijacked and turned into a circular rant, eh Elfin?

[WreckitWhippet]

I think it sucks just that bit more, when people come onto a pedigree dog forum to push their cross bred dogs and agenda's

[Elfin]

I certainly don't expect vets to know everything, but I would hope that my vet would be up to date on current laws surround my pet. Particularly laws pertaining to something she appears to be condoning.

Personally, I DO teach at University ( to all you Melb Uni Vet students). I take the prac classes for Ophthalmology. I spend the two precious hours I have with the students doing not only core things they must know about examining eyes, but I also talk about the importance of ensuring healthy breeding stock. I harp on about the benefits of buying a pure-bred dog from a registered ethical breeder who health tests where necessary. I usually spend some time talking about the "hybrid vigour" or lack thereof of DDs. I tell them about the legislation. I am quite sure I end up boring them to tears... I am sure they all remember me as the "crazy pedigree dog lady".

I have spoken to the vets I work with, and we will put together an information sheet on the new legislation and how it can affect their clients and to a "mail out" to all clinics in Victoria. It is a shame that an individual clinic is left to do this, rather than the bodies involved in putting the legislation in place.

[Steve]

Come on lets be a bit fair about this.

There are many side issues here.

One is - Who should be responsible for ensuring information regarding legislations pertinent to breeding and owning dogs is delivered to the people who need to know it?

Is this the responsibility of the vet and if so who should be delivering the info to the vet?

Personally I think when new legislation is introduced part of the state's job should be to ensure the info is available and distributed to vets, petshops, breeder groups,etc .Apart from the obvious which is that people know about the legal issues they have to consider in breeding an animal it might make more people realise the laws which are being introduced sometimes are really stupid.

The vet's job is to consider the health of the dog on their table not to be a legal advisor.

[PuddleDuck]

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for vets to choose to specialise in large/small animals as they go through. There is a lot to learn to cover them both, and perhaps the option of a slightly longer degree could be available if you do want to cover both?? The average city vet doesn't really see that many cows Even if you could be a small animal vet, or an all animal vet.

I wont hesitate to pay more if I am worried about knowledge. We paid extra to take our turtle to a turtle vet, not to mention taking 1/2 day off work because they dont do late and weekend consults. But when I did, I was very grateful because the medication a vet I used to know used is actually fatal to turtles. She always referred to herself as an exotic "specialist" too. When I told another very well educated and up to date vet about it, they had no idea and said that medication is what they had been taught was a great broad-spectrum antibiotic for exotics (including the poor turtys!)

I've worked in several clinics when I was vet nursing. Absolutely there are some vets that shouldn't be in practice. But the majority are just people who work their a$$ off to get where they are and accept a life of work hours that would scare most of us off, for very little money, because they love it. I found that you really have to be a top line amazing vet nurse who is still working to further their education to get to work with vets like that.

I guess it's like Doctors isn't it. Some attend conferences, stay up to date, push themselves to do whatever they can for their patients. We have one lovely doctor who gives us his home number to call if we are worried. Others give you the script and have you out the door in 5 minutes.

I suppose, at the end of the day, its about education. Is it that the average vet doesn't really have a lot to do with breeders and so chooses not to keep as up to date in reproduction fields? I know in the US a lot of money from the Kennel Clubs is invested into research. I'm not familiar with it here, but perhaps that is the place to start....offering sponsorships or other opportunities to vets who are willing to put the extra effort into our preferred fields.

I hope that makes sense, I'm feeling very "friday afternoon"

Oh - and I paid $17 a minute for my renal specialist, and he does very little that I see...but then, my kidneys still work!!!

[Jumabaar]

Woofenpup:

The AVERAGE graduate is LUCKY to get $40,000 what about the unlucky below average? Other professions dont take 5yrs of study+ continued learning after they have graduated.......

Medicine?

Law?

But no one expects a lawyer to work because the love people LOL. I was getting at the fact that bertandsally indicated that grads from accounting, pharmacy and architecture get payed about the same after leaving uni. I know pharmasists get far more, and I believe majority of accountants/architects could earn more two. Just getting frustrated and need to leave well enough allone.

I cant wait to graduate and I would like to educate the ppl on here as much as I would like to be educated (yep thats why I come on here to read/listen). It goes both ways I guess. I just get frustrated when ppl imply that vets as a whole dont do enough or charge too much. Go to a vet that does know, try and educate a Vet that doesnt and suck it up about vet fees- it costs what it costs build a bridge and get over it. If you dont like it dont go but DONT expect vets to not want to make a decent living just because you decide they charge too much. I am quite forthright in my belief that I have as much right to earn the same amount to perform surgery on a great dane as it would to perform surgery (without ANY medicare or health care subsidy) as a doctor. It will never happen but there are many times in the future I will do the EXACT same thing as the Dr down the road, charge LESS (more up front but end up with less after medicare and private health puts money in) and still have someone walk out complaining about how much it cost!!

This is all sooooooo off topic. I would like to hear more ideas about how to improve how vet students learn.

Not all Vets have to be members of the AVA which does have groups for different intrests http://avacms.eseries.hengesystems.com.au/...m?Section=SIGs1. The ava would keep their members up to date with current legislation however as I said not everyone is a member. There is no special intrest group for dog reproduction..... as the repro is more about agricultural animals.

[Steve]

Our vet -Dr Lynne Bodell BVSc, MA.C.VSc [Canine Medicine] Veterinary advisor to Faculty and Board of Management MDBA.

Specialises in dogs and we chat for hours educating each other. I go to a different vet for my sheep.

[Red Fox]

Regardless of the new legislation and the vets knowledge of it, is it not common sense that if a dog/bitch is producing pups with eye problems that you should not be breeding from it ESPECIALLY if the parents are a breed that is known to be affected?

What does 'home breeding' have to do with it all Do 'home bred' dogs not suffer from any health issues? Or maybe it's not such a big deal because they are only 'pets'

I'm sorry but you don't have to be particularly bright to work that one out....

[Mags]

Can't speak highly enough about our vets they have been there for us through one of the worst periods of our lives when all our cats were poisoned by Orijen Cat food - it was our vets that prepared surveys and asked me to get them out to people, it was our vets who spoke to collegues o/s and got us help and found a lab in the US that would test food and blood to try and find out what the hell was going on. It was one of the clinics that paid for counselling for clients and staff alike and set up a mailing list so we would be kept up to date on what was going on and that was for all affected owners not just there clients. When one of our cats collapsed I rang and our vet was waiting at the door for me and raced our little girl into the consult room where he had the ulrasound waiting to check her chest. Yes vet bills since this started have been horrendous but this has been going on since April 2008 when our first cat became ill.

What do vets need more of - unfortunately I think they do not get enough practical at uni and their handling and clinical skills when they come out is very poor. Yes they have to learn but I would prefer it is not to be on my animals that they make their mistakes especially when I am expected to pay the bill. Our vets had a new grad start with them and adequately supervised him until he was ready to stand alone. Unfortunately this from what I have seen appears to be a rare situation too many new grads are just left to their own devises and not always with good results. An eg: one of our cats - a show cat was to be desexed by a vet we had used for years - the mess that was made of her wound was unbelievable it was clearly done by someone other than the vet that was suppose to do it. I did complain and was told they would "fix" it think not you just lost my custom and that of my family and friends in the surrounding area who did not want their animal being next. If the new grad was to be allowed to do the op I would have expected he was supervised this clearly did not happen. In my opinion a total disregard for my cat and for me despite being a loyal client for years and I was assured our old vet would do the op. Took months to get her well enough for another vet to do surgery to repair the damage. A friend had a similar situation with her vet of many years in her case the cat died - not good enough I'm afraid. So better supervision of new grads - people have commented on them not being paid much well until they have the skills they need to do their job unsupervised that is not surprising.

And I suppose the other thing that is needed is a requirement for them to stay up to date with changes that are occurring eg: change in vaccination protocols and the reasons why this has become necessary. Oh and nearly forgot they need to know how to report adverse drug reactions.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Mags

[Elfin]

Regardless of the new legislation and the vets knowledge of it, is it not common sense that if a dog/bitch is producing pups with eye problems that you should not be breeding from it ESPECIALLY if the parents are a breed that is known to be affected?

What does 'home breeding' have to do with it all Do 'home bred' dogs not suffer from any health issues? Or maybe it's not such a big deal because they are only 'pets'

I'm sorry but you don't have to be particularly bright to work that one out....

Common sense does not seem to be very common.

If I'd had the conversation with the vet in the street, pub, park wherever, I would asked her WTF she was thinking condoning this clients actions.

As she was asking me in a professional capacity, I had to tread carefully. When she seemed oblivious to the fact that there would probably be health consequences for the puppies, I thought a mention of the law may have swayed her.

[poodlefan]

Woofy:

I cant wait to graduate and I would like to educate the ppl on here as much as I would like to be educated (yep thats why I come on here to read/listen). It goes both ways I guess. I just get frustrated when ppl imply that vets as a whole dont do enough or charge too much. Go to a vet that does know, try and educate a Vet that doesnt and suck it up about vet fees- it costs what it costs build a bridge and get over it. If you dont like it dont go but DONT expect vets to not want to make a decent living just because you decide they charge too much. I am quite forthright in my belief that I have as much right to earn the same amount to perform surgery on a great dane as it would to perform surgery (without ANY medicare or health care subsidy) as a doctor. It will never happen but there are many times in the future I will do the EXACT same thing as the Dr down the road, charge LESS (more up front but end up with less after medicare and private health puts money in) and still have someone walk out complaining about how much it cost!!

Woofy you run the risk of generalising about Dolers as much as some Dolers run the risk of generalising about vets.

Crap vets exist for a reason - negative role models for people like you!

I don't use my local vet - I travel further and pay more for a service I regard as better. So do a lot of Dolers.

I'd no more take my dog to just any vet than I'd see just any doctor. Informed selective consumption of veterinary services would probably improve standards faster than anything else.

If you don't like your vet, vote with your wallet like you'd do to any other service provider.

Edited January 15, 2010 by poodlefan

[ncarter]

Read the OT thread - vets, with 20+ years experience are earning about 80k pa. Grads are paid less than vet nurses for a very long time (eg 30k pa). Most of the charges to to overheads (insurance, rent, staff, quipment, drugs etc).

Heidii - lots of !!!! and CAPS don't make an argument any stronger ;-).

I thought most vets starting out earn about 40k a year and it increases pretty quickly, whereas vet nurses are only paid about $18 an hour, correct me if im wrong.

Edited January 15, 2010 by ncarter

[Bilbo Baggins]

I support the statement that not all vets suck like not all doctors suck, probably mire than vets, but I am a nurse so I am allowed to be biased.

My vet is brilliant but he would quite happily not microchip my 8 wek old puppies as the Vic law is very weak in this area. I have "educted" him and made him do my first litter after the legislation changed.

His knowledge of breeding apart from the anatomical aspects is less than mine but then he has never bred. I do not have a problem with this we often share info and he is coming around to my use of natural remedies.

He keeps up to date acadedemicaly (??sp)nd often shares new info.

BTW see my comment in other vet thread re wages.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm thinking that the MDBA needs to do guest lectures for each vet student cohort on the purebred dog world.

[Steve]

I notice in the report recently published on the welfare of breeding dogs that one recomendation is that breeders should seek advice from vets as to whether they should use a dog for breeding - raises lots of thoughts.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Steve

[Kirty]

My wonderful cat vet is very up to date with animal welfare, she is very switched on. However I have also recently found out about vets who breed their own moggies to sell (entire) at their clinic! Unbelievable! I honestly wonder how some of these people can think like this? Are they so detached from the real world that they actually think this is OK?

Perhaps all vets should have to do a stint in a rescue organisation before graduating, as well as attending a seminar on responsible breeding.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Their is a definite deficit in what vets know about the issues with purebred dogs, and as they are looked upon as the authorities on breeding matters it is important that they are well aware of the facts, not just the biased literature available to them.

[Jumabaar]

I notice in the report recently published on the welfare of breeding dogs that one recomendation is that breeders should seek advice from vets as to whether they should use a dog for breeding - raises lots of thoughts.

+1

Oh and poodlefan I know most DOLers are happy to accept that vets have the right charge what they charge- I have seen/been impressed with what people have done to make sure thier pets are well looked after- Its why I keep coming back and reading as I know that I would do the same thing! I know some in real life chosing the more expensive options to ensure quality and lenght of life rather than a short term fix. They go to a dermatologist and walk away knowing that they got what they paid for- a plan to make their dog happier!

Edited January 15, 2010 by woofenpup

[megan_]

Read the OT thread - vets, with 20+ years experience are earning about 80k pa. Grads are paid less than vet nurses for a very long time (eg 30k pa). Most of the charges to to overheads (insurance, rent, staff, quipment, drugs etc).

Heidii - lots of !!!! and CAPS don't make an argument any stronger ;-).

I thought most vets starting out earn about 40k a year and it increases pretty quickly, whereas vet nurses are only paid about $18 an hour, correct me if im wrong.

OT - Not according to the vets and vet nurses. $40k is also a very low starting salary. By comparison, half-decent IT grads get about $65k starting salary these days.

[centitout]

I will refrain myself from commenting on the 'all vets suck' post because I don't want to get banned...

Elfin - I blame the universities. The new generation of vets being pumped out are completely different to the old school vets. My boss was the kind of kid who hunted around his garden for lizards and bugs to study and wanted to know everything there was about animals. 'Born' a Vet you could say. He worked his butt off to get the marks he needed to finally get into Vet School. And after 20 years of practicing, still loves it like the day he graduated and just bought a new clinic to run himself and is so thrilled about being 'the local vet'.

The new grads we are seeing, have no natural animal handling skills and have very little common sense around animals. I was told by someone who recently graduated, that a high percentage of students simply go to vet school because they got the grades, so it's 'what they do', and not because they have an infinite love for animals. Unfortunately too, because of the lack of handling skills/instincts, examinations weren't done very thoroughly, and rather than trying to make a diagnosis themselves, would have to rely on other means, like sending bloods away, xrays, etc.

Unfortunately, as some else said, I think in lots of cases there's also a bit of an atitude problem, too. Many come out of uni thinking they're the bees knees and know it all. Numerous times I've had to tell new grads they're about to give the wrong anaesthetic or too much, or that a heart rate is too slow, only to have them argue back telling me they're the vet, I'm the nurse and don't know what I'm talking about. Thankfully nothing ever died, but one came very close.

Obviously this is only from my experience and perhaps all the students and new grads we've had were just the not so good ones, but I've heard similar things from others too. I think it won't be long until a consult with your vet is like a consult with your GP, and if anything else needs to be done other than routine surgeries, you'll be referred to someone else, because the newer vets just won't know how.

Excellent post Stormie,

I have heard similar things and been on the receiving end of You are just a dog breeder and know nothing from new vets,but the grads i worked for were awesome,she was willing to listen to people that had a bit of knowledge,and indeed came to me for help when she had newborn animals that needed hand raising etc. She would spend hours pouring through books,ringing around if she was unsure of something and was fanatic about fat dogs or naughty /unsocialised dogs,she would draw herself up to her full 5 feet high and let them have it.

Some i have seen though have absolutely NO animal handling skills at all.

One my sister knows of is the one who was on work experience at a gov facility heavily featuring dogs,and when asked why she wanted to work there her response was "because it is high paying and i dont have to touch the dirty things".LOVELY.