Vet Education

[Steve]

Im not one bit worried about vets charge.Its a supply and demand issue like all other services.if they can get more they would be mugs not to. Top 2% of the state to get in 5 + years of study - Its all good by me.

[WoofnHoof]

Funnily enough I've had better experiences with some younger vets I've found them to be a bit more receptive to the 'out of the box' diagnoses, the younger vet who looked at my liver shunt boy actually suspected a shunt initially but was overruled by the senior vets who just assumed that my boy had eaten something that didn't agree with him (even though symptoms were classic shunt symptoms).

Similarly when my horse was sick a few times the older vet refused to listen to me when I said I suspected that his illnesses were linked whereas the younger vets were less skeptical (at least to my face lol).

Conversly I've found a lot of older vets who are specialists in their field to be absolutely brilliant so I guess there is a balance between being young and open minded and older and having the breadth of experience without falling into the trap of complacency which can cause them to misdiagnose.

ETA I agree that fees are a necessary evil many people balk at the cost of the shunt surgery but considering the complexity of the task, the skill level of the surgeon and the high level of care required post op it was actually very good.

Edited January 15, 2010 by WoofnHoof

[Steve]

Attitude is a bit of a problem and some do come out with assumptions and judgements which can cause some issues.

No one likes to have their experience and knowledge seen as trash, after all I was in the top 2% of the state

too and Ive put in a hell of a lot of years of study and it can be a great relationship with a bit of mutual respect.

Years ago I had a pain in my neck due to a higher than average number of c sections.[ about 1 in 2] I discussed this with my vet and we worked out strategies to try to bring it down together. I havent had a C section for around 5 years.I probably would have done it without her but she was a great sounding board and was only interested in me achieving my goal for the welfare of the dogs not because she thought all ends should aim at a champion.

[Jed]

I will refrain myself from commenting on the 'all vets suck' post because I don't want to get banned...

Elfin - I blame the universities. The new generation of vets being pumped out are completely different to the old school vets. My boss was the kind of kid who hunted around his garden for lizards and bugs to study and wanted to know everything there was about animals. 'Born' a Vet you could say. He worked his butt off to get the marks he needed to finally get into Vet School. And after 20 years of practicing, still loves it like the day he graduated and just bought a new clinic to run himself and is so thrilled about being 'the local vet'.

The new grads we are seeing, have no natural animal handling skills and have very little common sense around animals. I was told by someone who recently graduated, that a high percentage of students simply go to vet school because they got the grades, so it's 'what they do', and not because they have an infinite love for animals. Unfortunately too, because of the lack of handling skills/instincts, examinations weren't done very thoroughly, and rather than trying to make a diagnosis themselves, would have to rely on other means, like sending bloods away, xrays, etc.

Unfortunately, as some else said, I think in lots of cases there's also a bit of an atitude problem, too. Many come out of uni thinking they're the bees knees and know it all. Numerous times I've had to tell new grads they're about to give the wrong anaesthetic or too much, or that a heart rate is too slow, only to have them argue back telling me they're the vet, I'm the nurse and don't know what I'm talking about. Thankfully nothing ever died, but one came very close.

Obviously this is only from my experience and perhaps all the students and new grads we've had were just the not so good ones, but I've heard similar things from others too. I think it won't be long until a consult with your vet is like a consult with your GP, and if anything else needs to be done other than routine surgeries, you'll be referred to someone else, because the newer vets just won't know how.

Lots of people do go to vet school simply because they have the marks. Some have little experience with animals, but learn as they go along, others simply pass the course, and see it as a job. Really good vets have a passion for it. During vet school, students are expected to do practical work during the holidays. This is to increase their experience. Dairy farms, piggeries, horse studs, vet practices, specialist vet practices. The keen students pick the best teaching practice to do prac work at, and whilst they are there, they usually shine, so they are allowed to do procedures, and brought into important operations, consults etc. The not so keen vet students simply plod along.

Of an intake of about 80 some years ago, only about 20 had experience with several animals. 10 or so had no animal experience at all. Part of the course involves animal handling, but I think anyone with no animal experience has to be behind the 8 ball at the start.

It is well known (by practising vets) that when students graduate, they don't know much. The keener ones get into whatever practice they can, some are lucky enough to get into good practices, which teach them as they go, and the keener ones will change jobs to acquire experience and knowledge from really good vets. They will also work in practices which allow them to learn, and do increasingly difficult procedures, plus the good vets in those practices will continue to train them.

Meanwhile, the not so keen are recognized by employers, and they don't get jobs in practices which will teach them, they tend to in places where their knowledge and expertise doesn't increase.

So, vets divide into 2 streams after graduation - the good and keen ones go into a stream where their experience and knowledge grows, and the dull or uninterested ones go into a stream which is stagnant.

And of course, the graduates who think they know everything never learn any more, and after 20 years in practice, they are still killing cats during speys, or giving dogs too much anaesthetic, taking 2 hours to do the job, and telling the owner that there was a problem with the dog when the problem was the slack assed vet. There are no PM's on dead pets!

It's a very demanding job, emotionally and physically. Vets are up in the middle of the night to sick animals, need a hell of a lot of knowledge - more than a doctor - and distraught owners are emotionally draining for most vets, as are animals which despite every bit of knowledge and energy the vet has, still die. The attrition rate is high - many leave and go to other jobs, DPI, AQIS, pet food companies etc because of the huge demands. The suicide rate of vets is much higher than the population average.

A good vet is a wonderous being. Treasure him.

And some people go to vet school for all the wrong reasons. My nephew, dux of the school, thought vet sounded intresting, graduated BVSc (hons), got a job, the week after he graduated, as an ambo. Prolly not cut out to be a vet, eh?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Woofenpup:

The AVERAGE graduate is LUCKY to get $40,000 what about the unlucky below average? Other professions dont take 5yrs of study+ continued learning after they have graduated.......

Medicine?

Law?

accountants

it professionals

it is expected that in most professions that you will keep up to date with the latest things

[poodlefan]

A good vet is a wonderous being. Treasure him.

Or her. My five favourite vets are female.

Dr Christine Zink (USA)

Dr Jean Dodds (USA)

Dr Barbara Fougere (Sydney)

Dr Georgina Childs (Sydney)

Dr Sandra Hassett (Canberra)

[sandgrubber]

We learn the mechanics of reproduction, ie anatomy, physiology congenital abnormalities for 8hrs/week for 13 weeks. No they did not go into HOW to look at two dogs and decide what two would suit each other. Just as the genetics we learn was about 5hrs/week for 13 weeks. That doesnt mean that what we learn actually pans out in reality simply because as many others have said they are living, breating biological creatures and in the end you deal with the hand you got delt.

[\quote]

I don't mean this as vet bashing. I think vets, in general, do well, given the huge variety of problems they have to deal with and the amount of time they spend in school (particularly the shortage of practicals). But I would be interested to know whether study of reproduction and genetics as taught in vet school gets down to the nitty-gritty of what dog breeds are prone to what diseases? Or is it more 'avarian' and 'mammalian' reproduction, with an added hour or two for marsupials, with emphasis on the principles that apply across all vertebrate animals. If I had to worry about pigs and chooks and dairy cows and cats and the odd fish, as well as canines, I don't think I'd want to deal with things on a breed-specific level.

I find our repro-specialists are most skilled at fertility questions, AI, Ceasarians, and so forth, and tend to leave breed-specific questions to the breeders. I think they are wise to do so.

Edited January 15, 2010 by sandgrubber

[Gallomph]

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for vets to choose to specialise in large/small animals as they go through. There is a lot to learn to cover them both, and perhaps the option of a slightly longer degree could be available if you do want to cover both?? The average city vet doesn't really see that many cows Even if you could be a small animal vet, or an all animal vet

.

I think this is very valid point. I work in agriculture, and have seen many vet students come and go whist doing their compulsory prac time. 80% of them have no interest in farm animals and no intention of working with them once they graduate. Perhaps allowing vet students to specialize a little more after they've done the basic stuff (eg from 3rd year on), would allow students that were specializing in pets to study in these areas in more depth than they do currently. Trying to include all animals gives a massively wide field to cover, and therefore some areas are not well covered. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. However, this is really off topic.

When changes in laws occur, the govt should make some effort to advise affected groups. They usually do, but the effort may be pretty minimal. It is often left up to interest groups and professional associations to get the word out. These groups often do a pretty good job, but often don't reach all individuals due to any number of reasons: too busy/ don't get professional journals/ too expensive to attend conferences etc etc. Probably the only solution is to make some kind of "professional development / updating" a compulsory condition of continuing registration with licensing boards. And then include the law changes in the topics covered. This kind of thing already exists in loads of professions eg doctors, workplace training assessors etc etc.

[Steve]

Wonder who should have told the oodle breeders they could go to gaol if they breed a carrier?

[Gallomph]

Wonder who should have told the oodle breeders they could go to gaol if they breed a carrier?

[tongue in cheek] isn't there some kind of pet shop industry association??? Surely they would take on the responsibility??!

Seriously, unless the govt or their 'delegated agents' actually do some enforcement / fines etc on puppy farms and byb, and it hits the press, no doubt most people will remain oblivious.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Wonder who should have told the oodle breeders they could go to gaol if they breed a carrier?

The benefit of being an oodle breeder is that you have no paper trail, and can disrobe and mingle if accused of something. easier to track registered puppies rather than unregistered, so we won't be seeing any of the puppy farmers prosecuted. Sad thing is the told you so will be hollow when the registered breeders are forced into extinction and people then find that their crossbreds still have health issues and at higher rates as parents aren't health tested.

[Jed]

jdavsi, as illustrated too well by this discussion I had with a puppy farmer a few years ago

ME You ought not to be breeding with that line of Cavaliers, as it does have MVD

PF What's MVD?

I explained

PF Well, it doesn't mater because the pet shop takes the pups, and it's not my problem, especially if it wont come on until they are a few years old. I don't think it is important

And the fact that an older cocker bitch seized in a pf raid gave birth at the RSPCA. She is blind. I would imagine she is affected by PRA, so some of the pups will also be affected by PRA. But the pf was still breeding from her. Did she know it was PRA? Probably not. And what's worse, she woudn't have cared.

But I would be interested to know whether study of reproduction and genetics as taught in vet school gets down to the nitty-gritty of what dog breeds are prone to what diseases? Or is it more 'avarian' and 'mammalian' reproduction, with an added hour or two for marsupials, with emphasis on the principles that apply across all vertebrate animals.

At UQ, it is very basic - the basic recessive and dominant genes, a bit on reproduction, gestation times for all species. They do several (or more) subjects per semester, depending on the difficulty level and amount of study required. I think repro is a semester subject. They do learn the basics of birthing. If they do prac in a piggery, for instance, the piggery staff will show them how to farrow, same with dairies, and if they go to vets who have breeder clients, they will probably see vets deliver pups, and the aftercare at the surgery.

The rationale is that vets who wish to specialise in reproduction, or even know a bit more about it as a gp will do further study themselves, either after graduation, or by joining a practice with a repro specialist, or vet who services breeders. Most do the study themselves. My experience is that most gp vets dont know much about it. A lot of vets learn about dog breeding from breeders. And no, vet school doesn't get down to what breeds are prone to what. In fact, it doesn't get down to dog breeds, and many new grads couldn't pick a schnauzer from a pug.

I had a beautiful litter of boxers vac once. The vet commented on how well grown, shiny and friendly they were, which was gratifying. She told me they were very healthy, and then leaned in, and very confidingly said in a very disappointed voice "they are ALL undershot". She was so sad that my beautiful pups had one huge fault. I replied, just as confidingly "they are supposed to be". She was amazed. Continuing learning!!

I remember once getting a vet who had graduated a few years prior, to a difficult whelping. I had to tell her how much oxytocin to give. One pup arrived flaccid, not breathing. She put him aside - "he's dead". NO WAY. I resuscitated him, and she was amazed, didn't know you could do that. Not bagging her at all, but they do learn as they go.

[Jed]

I notice in the report recently published on the welfare of breeding dogs that one recomendation is that breeders should seek advice from vets as to whether they should use a dog for breeding - raises lots of thoughts.

And my vet, who sees lots of breeders, would say "WTF? How the hell would I know, you're the breeder"

Even my repro vet would only advise on health issues, not the choice of dog. He wouldn\t have a clue whether the dog was any good or not, only whether he was healthy. Nor should he have.

They're VETS not breeders.

I wouldn't ask the fridge repairer what brand of car to buy

Some of these people writing reports should be strung up by the personal bits to dry for a couple of weeks, and maybe then they would have some sense. They seem to be good at putting expectations in all the wrong places.

[Jed]

According to stats, vet is the lowest paid profession at graduation level. Doctors are paid about $K20 more at base rates, and most earn morel.

Vet is harder than medicine, I think vets should be recompensed adequately. However, as vet pracrises hire them, their rationale is that most new grads only generate enough income in the first couple of years to warrant the low salary. And I guess if the new grad is taking 1 1/2 hours to spey a cat, and all the "difficult" enquiries have to be handled by a senior vet, they do have a point!!

Tough on the new grads though, who have starved through vet school, probably worked their tails off to do.

a few subjects a semester, had a part time job (stewarding at the greyhounds is a winner, used to be $55 hour, better than Maccas, and you get to be around dogs), given most of their uni holidays to prac work, had to buy a car to get to the prac work, and are faced with very low wages.

[Rappie]

Unfortunately, no amount of education (veterinary or otherwise) can force someone to 'care'.

I have clients laugh at my medical recommendations - no, I don't think you should breed you severely hip dysplastic, neurotic, fear aggressive German Shepherd with the bitch down the road. I don't care how handsome he is, he lacks genetic potential. Don't really care that you can sell 'em for $1000. You know really, no, your Staffordshire bitch with generalised demodex shouldn't really be bred from. No, it's probably not just grass. No, I don't think just one litter is a good idea.

I have lots of clients who just refuse to microchip their pup before 6 months. You can tell them all about the legislation, and how the 'breeder' shouldn't really have sold them a pup at 5 weeks old and that weetbix isn't really a complete diet. It's illegal to steal someones cat and try to get it put to sleep just because it annoys you. The usual stuff

Vets are just normal people to. Some are good, some not so. Some have a great interest in animal welfare, some just do their job. Some think outside the box, some don't. I don't know that you can blame the education system entirely for the individuals that come out of it - I suggest that you find one you love an keep seeing them.

It is a requirement for maintaining registration (at least in NSW) that vets attend a minimum number of hours of continuing education. I know young vets who find it just as tedious as older vets and who just have no interest in anything other than meeting the minimum number. It's not particularly important, but I'm a Chartered Member of the AVA - the requirement for this is 120 CE points in the last 3 years. I obtained 132 points in the last 12 months - including 330 hours of a post grad education course.

[Erny]

... the requirement for this is 120 CE points in the last 3 years. I obtained 132 points in the last 12 months - including 330 hours of a post grad education course.

And you're the type we need more of, Rappie.

Planning on moving to Melbourne any time soon?

[OSoSwift]

Unfortunately, no amount of education (veterinary or otherwise) can force someone to 'care'.

I have clients laugh at my medical recommendations - no, I don't think you should breed you severely hip dysplastic, neurotic, fear aggressive German Shepherd with the bitch down the road. I don't care how handsome he is, he lacks genetic potential. Don't really care that you can sell 'em for $1000. You know really, no, your Staffordshire bitch with generalised demodex shouldn't really be bred from. No, it's probably not just grass. No, I don't think just one litter is a good idea.

I have lots of clients who just refuse to microchip their pup before 6 months. You can tell them all about the legislation, and how the 'breeder' shouldn't really have sold them a pup at 5 weeks old and that weetbix isn't really a complete diet. It's illegal to steal someones cat and try to get it put to sleep just because it annoys you. The usual stuff

Vets are just normal people to. Some are good, some not so. Some have a great interest in animal welfare, some just do their job. Some think outside the box, some don't. I don't know that you can blame the education system entirely for the individuals that come out of it - I suggest that you find one you love an keep seeing them.

It is a requirement for maintaining registration (at least in NSW) that vets attend a minimum number of hours of continuing education. I know young vets who find it just as tedious as older vets and who just have no interest in anything other than meeting the minimum number. It's not particularly important, but I'm a Chartered Member of the AVA - the requirement for this is 120 CE points in the last 3 years. I obtained 132 points in the last 12 months - including 330 hours of a post grad education course.

Excellent post and brought back some memories!

I think I have had a couple of those conversations myself!

We definately can never have enough vets like you Rappie.

[Steve]

Unfortunately, no amount of education (veterinary or otherwise) can force someone to 'care'.

I have clients laugh at my medical recommendations - no, I don't think you should breed you severely hip dysplastic, neurotic, fear aggressive German Shepherd with the bitch down the road. I don't care how handsome he is, he lacks genetic potential. Don't really care that you can sell 'em for $1000. You know really, no, your Staffordshire bitch with generalised demodex shouldn't really be bred from. No, it's probably not just grass. No, I don't think just one litter is a good idea.

I have lots of clients who just refuse to microchip their pup before 6 months. You can tell them all about the legislation, and how the 'breeder' shouldn't really have sold them a pup at 5 weeks old and that weetbix isn't really a complete diet. It's illegal to steal someones cat and try to get it put to sleep just because it annoys you. The usual stuff

Vets are just normal people to. Some are good, some not so. Some have a great interest in animal welfare, some just do their job. Some think outside the box, some don't. I don't know that you can blame the education system entirely for the individuals that come out of it - I suggest that you find one you love an keep seeing them.

It is a requirement for maintaining registration (at least in NSW) that vets attend a minimum number of hours of continuing education. I know young vets who find it just as tedious as older vets and who just have no interest in anything other than meeting the minimum number. It's not particularly important, but I'm a Chartered Member of the AVA - the requirement for this is 120 CE points in the last 3 years. I obtained 132 points in the last 12 months - including 330 hours of a post grad education course.

Yes but Rappie - You are a cut above and thats due in at least some small part to your participation in this forum.Its why you have been nominated and won Vet of the Year in the dog Owners choice Awards. You allowed us to talk to you and I can remember some pretty good debates where we educated each other.

My vet is pretty good too and thats because she specialised in dogs, she did a fair stint in the show ring and breeds purebred Rotties.

She has a large number of registered breeder clientele - some of which travel hundreds of kilometres and drive past many other vets to get to her. There are still some areas that I think she knows less than me which because Ive named her Im not going to talk about

But when you get down to a situation where vets and people who have never had any breeding experience dictate the rules of engagement for legislation pertaining to breeding and breeders are deliberately left out surely considering all vets are not equal we

have to see there's something wrong with this.Obviously all breeders are not created equal either but we're working pretty hard to educate them and that would be much easier if more vets were interested in what we do the way you have been and give us a hand.

[corrie]

Wonder who should have told the oodle breeders they could go to gaol if they breed a carrier?

The benefit of being an oodle breeder is that you have no paper trail, and can disrobe and mingle if accused of something. easier to track registered puppies rather than unregistered, so we won't be seeing any of the puppy farmers prosecuted. Sad thing is the told you so will be hollow when the registered breeders are forced into extinction and people then find that their crossbreds still have health issues and at higher rates as parents aren't health tested.

That is why I think it would be good if there was a permanent section on the microchip form for the breeders details and that it was a legal requirement that the breeders details be filled in. Someone suggested this a while ago and seemed to get a fair amount of negative feedback about it but I don't understand why.

[Steve]

Wonder who should have told the oodle breeders they could go to gaol if they breed a carrier?

The benefit of being an oodle breeder is that you have no paper trail, and can disrobe and mingle if accused of something. easier to track registered puppies rather than unregistered, so we won't be seeing any of the puppy farmers prosecuted. Sad thing is the told you so will be hollow when the registered breeders are forced into extinction and people then find that their crossbreds still have health issues and at higher rates as parents aren't health tested.

That is why I think it would be good if there was a permanent section on the microchip form for the breeders details and that it was a legal requirement that the breeders details be filled in. Someone suggested this a while ago and seemed to get a fair amount of negative feedback about it but I don't understand why.

We have been writing letters and talking to politicians about it for years.It would also allow accurate statistics to be kept as well but the bases are loaded with PIAA and they have a vested interest in keeping breeders who supply pet shops etc under wraps.