Vet Education

[WreckitWhippet]

Mine certainly doesn't suck nor does she encourage the breeding of dogs and bitches with known problems. We have had many discussions regarding even simple things like mange and withdrawing affected animals from the gene pool, hernias, HD, c-sections and the list goes on.

Sadly I've also seen the other side, which is the indiscriminate breeding free for all, with vets leading the charge

[stormie]

I will refrain myself from commenting on the 'all vets suck' post because I don't want to get banned...

Elfin - I blame the universities. The new generation of vets being pumped out are completely different to the old school vets. My boss was the kind of kid who hunted around his garden for lizards and bugs to study and wanted to know everything there was about animals. 'Born' a Vet you could say. He worked his butt off to get the marks he needed to finally get into Vet School. And after 20 years of practicing, still loves it like the day he graduated and just bought a new clinic to run himself and is so thrilled about being 'the local vet'.

The new grads we are seeing, have no natural animal handling skills and have very little common sense around animals. I was told by someone who recently graduated, that a high percentage of students simply go to vet school because they got the grades, so it's 'what they do', and not because they have an infinite love for animals. Unfortunately too, because of the lack of handling skills/instincts, examinations weren't done very thoroughly, and rather than trying to make a diagnosis themselves, would have to rely on other means, like sending bloods away, xrays, etc.

Unfortunately, as some else said, I think in lots of cases there's also a bit of an atitude problem, too. Many come out of uni thinking they're the bees knees and know it all. Numerous times I've had to tell new grads they're about to give the wrong anaesthetic or too much, or that a heart rate is too slow, only to have them argue back telling me they're the vet, I'm the nurse and don't know what I'm talking about. Thankfully nothing ever died, but one came very close.

Obviously this is only from my experience and perhaps all the students and new grads we've had were just the not so good ones, but I've heard similar things from others too. I think it won't be long until a consult with your vet is like a consult with your GP, and if anything else needs to be done other than routine surgeries, you'll be referred to someone else, because the newer vets just won't know how.

[Heidii]

I never said ALL...

Maybe when some of you are put in positions by vets like I was, then maybe, just maybe you'd understand. OF CORSE there is always exceptions to the rule, and by pointing that out is just stating the obvious!

What I went through as a vet nurse and what vets did to people pets was discusting, so much now that I am extremely weary of them and do my homework. I think I am intitled to feel that way based on my EXPERIENCE....AND if I felt NOTHING based on what i have seen you'd call me heartless.

There are many vets out there that are stuck in their old ways, getting back to the topic, thats the problem. As poodlefan said, I think educating junior vets on dog related issues would be our best bet.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Heidii

[lillim]

nope, read it three times and still can't understand how a VET could come to the conclusion that it's fine for someone to breed with no care to health issues - particularly when litters have produced problems.

yeah, I don't quite get it either...... it seems a bit basic 101 stuff

Vets SUCK....and I mean SUCK.....did I forget to mention that vets SUUCKKK?!!!

No amount of education will educate these so called animal lovers.....all they care about is money! As long as they have dogs with problems, whos owners are happy to pay 1000's to have them fixed then they are as happy as a pig in mud!

Just mention the word VET to me and I shudder!

yeah I really hate my vet too, I take my dog in weekly to get a needle and they don't charge me. Money hungry gits!

There are always people in any profession that makes you wonder why they got into it in the first place, but to tarnish all vets with the same brush is uncalled for.

[gila]

I never said ALL...

No, you had experience working at 4 vet clinics and came to the conclusion that the MAJORITY of vets "suck".

The vets at the practice my animals go to don't suck.

[Heidii]

There are always people in any profession that makes you wonder why they got into it in the first place, but to tarnish all vets with the same brush is uncalled for.

Well there is your answer Elfin, Dont put vets all in one baskets saying 'we' are failing to educated these vets, or how can we educated, based on your one bad experience

Edited January 15, 2010 by Heidii

[Jumabaar]

I will start of by saying that I am a third year vet student.......

Vets SUCK....and I mean SUCK.....did I forget to mention that vets SUUCKKK?!!!

No amount of education will educate these so called animal lovers.....all they care about is money! As long as they have dogs with problems, whos owners are happy to pay 1000's to have them fixed then they are as happy as a pig in mud!

Just mention the word VET to me and I shudder!

Thanks so in 3yrs time I will automatically SUCK just because I graduated from vet. Well thanks alot. Yep I care about money because I own 5 dogs and would like to be able to afford to take them to agility and flyball, and be able to afford to rescue wildlife etc. How dare I as a so called animal lover dare to charge someone for a SERVICE. So why do vets suck- because you dont value them. You havent BOTHERED to go out and find a half decent vet (I dont deny that some vets are crap but guess what- you get to chose as a consumer wherer you go) and I can tell you there are some bloody awsome vets out there so why not DO something instead whinging and find one???

I will also point out that you have not included in your rant that you accept that not ALL vets suck. You said vets suck with no other qualification thus you HAVE indicated that all vets suck and really do find this QUITE offensive!

I will leave it there because I would prob get banned from saying any more..............

Vets SUCK....and I mean SUCK.....did I forget to mention that vets SUUCKKK?!!!

No amount of education will educate these so called animal lovers.....all they care about is money! As long as they have dogs with problems, whos owners are happy to pay 1000's to have them fixed then they are as happy as a pig in mud!

Just mention the word VET to me and I shudder!

whilst i do not agree that all vets 'suck' as i believe there are good and bad in every profession, i do disagree with the amount some charge. recently had to take bert to a dermatologist, was $170 for 1/2 hr consultation that didnt include any testing. she got some sticky tape samples of his paws and left the room for 2-3 mins to put them under a microscope and that cost $60.

i understand they are specialists but i had to see a cardiac specialist and paid less than that (and i didnt have private health at the time).

whilst you try and plan the funds for vet bills, it doesnt mean that they are always reasonable. if prices were a bit lower perhaps more people would seek vet care for their pets.

Once again how do YOU come up with a reasonable fee? that $60 wasnt for the sticky tape or the 2-3 min of time- it was the 5YRS of training that the vet did undergrad to become a vet and then the X more number of yrs that they trained to become a specialist. For all you know they are still paying off debt to have done all this study. The $170 consult fee was for the microscope, and all the other technology that they would have had behind the scenes. So how are the fees not 'reasonable'??????????????????????????

A vet grad will be lucky to earn $35thousand in a year once they graduate!!!! It is the lowest payed white collar profession and yet you say it should be cheaper

ON TOPIC after my little rant

I agree that there are a lot of vets/vet students that dont actually keep up to date with what is going on in the dog world. Most dont know what flyball is, don’t understand agility and couldn’t tell you their local obedience club. But I guess you just need to look around and find a vet that is appropriate to your needs and stick with them.

I cant tell you how to fix it but perhaps contacting the universities to see when they do animal handling and organising your own pets to go in. That way YOU can educate the vet students!! Another way might be to contact societies such as VETSoc (at Sydney uni) and organising to try and educate on different breeds during lunch each week...... That way when they graduate they will have had their ideas challenged and be able to think for themselves instead of just blindly believing what lecturers tell them.

Edited January 15, 2010 by woofenpup

[Elfin]

There are always people in any profession that makes you wonder why they got into it in the first place, but to tarnish all vets with the same brush is uncalled for.

Well there is your answer Elfin, Dont put vets all in one baskets saying 'we' are failing to educated these vets, or how can we educated, based on your one bad experience

Ummm.. I didn't think I put any vets in any basket.

I simply asked what we can do to help educate vets about current laws involving animals, as it it obvious from this and many other conversations I have had that many vets are unaware of these laws.

[Dogsfevr]

The main point I was trying to make was the vet had either had no knowledge of the new legislation, or thought the legislation only pertained to pure-bred dogs.

I would be inclined to pursue this one aspect & emphasis it APPLIES to all forms of breeders.

The unis should maybe be including this in there course but as discussed in the thread in off topic training for vets these days is getting sub standard.

It would be great if this vet was also charged if this person created an issue for supporting her "home breeding"

Did you happen to get there clinic name??(i dont want to now)

[Snout Girl]

I will start of by saying that I am a third year vet student.......

Vets SUCK....and I mean SUCK.....did I forget to mention that vets SUUCKKK?!!!

No amount of education will educate these so called animal lovers.....all they care about is money! As long as they have dogs with problems, whos owners are happy to pay 1000's to have them fixed then they are as happy as a pig in mud!

Just mention the word VET to me and I shudder!

Thanks so in 3yrs time I will automatically SUCK just because I graduated from vet. Well thanks alot. Yep I care about money because I own 5 dogs and would like to be able to afford to take them to agility and flyball, and be able to afford to rescue wildlife etc. How dare I as a so called animal lover dare to charge someone for a SERVICE. So why do vets suck- because you dont value them. You havent BOTHERED to go out and find a half decent vet (I dont deny that some vets are crap but guess what- you get to chose as a consumer wherer you go) and I can tell you there are some bloody awsome vets out there so why not DO something instead whinging and find one???

I will also point out that you have not included in your rant that you accept that not ALL vets suck. You said vets suck with no other qualification thus you HAVE indicated that all vets suck and really do find this QUITE offensive!

I will leave it there because I would prob get banned from saying any more..............

Vets SUCK....and I mean SUCK.....did I forget to mention that vets SUUCKKK?!!!

No amount of education will educate these so called animal lovers.....all they care about is money! As long as they have dogs with problems, whos owners are happy to pay 1000's to have them fixed then they are as happy as a pig in mud!

Just mention the word VET to me and I shudder!

whilst i do not agree that all vets 'suck' as i believe there are good and bad in every profession, i do disagree with the amount some charge. recently had to take bert to a dermatologist, was $170 for 1/2 hr consultation that didnt include any testing. she got some sticky tape samples of his paws and left the room for 2-3 mins to put them under a microscope and that cost $60.

i understand they are specialists but i had to see a cardiac specialist and paid less than that (and i didnt have private health at the time).

whilst you try and plan the funds for vet bills, it doesnt mean that they are always reasonable. if prices were a bit lower perhaps more people would seek vet care for their pets.

Once again how do YOU come up with a reasonable fee? that $60 wasnt for the sticky tape or the 2-3 min of time- it was the 5YRS of training that the vet did undergrad to become a vet and then the X more number of yrs that they trained to become a specialist. For all you know they are still paying off debt to have done all this study. The $170 consult fee was for the microscope, and all the other technology that they would have had behind the scenes. So how are the fees not 'reasonable'??????????????????????????

A vet grad will be lucky to earn $35thousand in a year once they graduate!!!! It is the lowest payed white collar profession and yet you say it should be cheaper

ON TOPIC after my little rant

I agree that there are a lot of vets/vet students that dont actually keep up to date with what is going on in the dog world. Most dont know what flyball is, don’t understand agility and couldn’t tell you their local obedience club. But I guess you just need to look around and find a vet that is appropriate to your needs and stick with them.

I cant tell you how to fix it but perhaps contacting the universities to see when they do animal handling and organising your own pets to go in. That way YOU can educate the vet students!! Another way might be to contact societies such as VETSoc (at Sydney uni) and organising to try and educate on different breeds during lunch each week...... That way when they graduate they will have had their ideas challenged and be able to think for themselves instead of just blindly believing what lecturers tell them.

Well i know for sure that my cardiac specialist also spent many, many years training and also has a lot of expensive equipment and I was able to pay half of what it cost for my dog to see a dermatologist.

the avergae graduating salary for a veteniary science student is $40,000- with other professions such as accounting, pharmacy and architecture being lower paid.

there is no way that anyone can convince me that paying $296 in total for a half hour appointment is reasonable. that equates to $10 a minute. that to me is unreasonable

[Elfin]

If you want to vet bash, or debate specialist fees, please feel free to start you own thread. Frankly, I'm bored of it.

[sandgrubber]

I'd have been tempted to say, 'Were you away the day they provided one 10 minute lecture on genetics & breeding at your vet school?'

That is the problem. It would take several years of veterinary schooling -- after all the basic science, biology, etc. that they do before vet school -- to cover all the things a vet really should know to be in general practice. Perhaps students get more than 10 minutes on genetics & breeding, but they certainly don't spend many hours on it, and many get more time on dealing with owner grief over pet death, or on bird lungs, than they do on dog breeding. Some vets go into vet school knowing something about dog breeding . . . some will pick it up when they do resident training or when they go into partnership with a more experienced vet who has done the yards, and some won't learn because it's not their area of interest and few of their clients are breeders.

Having a Dr in front of your name doesn't guarantee that you know everything!

[Jumabaar]

I'd have been tempted to say, 'Were you away the day they provided one 10 minute lecture on genetics & breeding at your vet school?'

We learn the mechanics of reproduction, ie anatomy, physiology congenital abnormalities for 8hrs/week for 13 weeks. No they did not go into HOW to look at two dogs and decide what two would suit each other. Just as the genetics we learn was about 5hrs/week for 13 weeks. That doesnt mean that what we learn actually pans out in reality simply because as many others have said they are living, breating biological creatures and in the end you deal with the hand you got delt.

Well i know for sure that my cardiac specialist also spent many, many years training and also has a lot of expensive equipment and I was able to pay half of what it cost for my dog to see a dermatologist.

the avergae graduating salary for a veteniary science student is $40,000- with other professions such as accounting, pharmacy and architecture being lower paid.

there is no way that anyone can convince me that paying $296 in total for a half hour appointment is reasonable. that equates to $10 a minute. that to me is unreasonable

Well organise medicare for your dog (yep you didnt pay the whole fee to the cardiologist even if you were not in private health care) OR dont take your dog since you dont think that the service was worth it. You are a consumer buying a product- if you decide the product is not worth it then dont buy it!

The AVERAGE graduate is LUCKY to get $40,000 what about the unlucky below average? Other professions dont take 5yrs of study+ continued learning after they have graduated.......

I will again leave it there because I am guessing that no matter what I say you will still believe that you did not get the product/service you wanted and that is just something that you will have to come to terms with. BUT the specialist did have a right to cover their costs AND make enough money to live on regardless of you opion. That is acutally something that we have to be counciled in lectures quite regluarly because it really messes with alot of vets heads when ppl decide that they dont have a right to make money because they should 'love animals'.

Here is a question- does EVERY vet need to know about breeding entirely OR should they know that breeders should go to a specialist? I do however agree that they should at least make an effort to keep up with currentl legislation.

Edited January 15, 2010 by woofenpup

[OSoSwift]

The vets I worked for who are my vets now I have left are fantastic! There are alsways some who are not, I suggest to go and look for a good one.

I know that the vets I worked for although they had very good dog knowledge, did know what particular conditions a dog was predisposed to have due to it's breed or cross.

They were happy to learn and I was often asked about breed specific things. There are new things that crop up and unless a vet has seen or heard of it they have no other way of knowing about a disease. I once relayed info on CL in border Collies after having read up in depth about it the previous week. It ended up the border collie they were assessing did have CL but that had never seen it or treated it.

I suppose the best way to get the info out there would be to have articles in say "The Veterinarian" as a lot of vets do read those. Where we are is is a logistical feat to get to lots of the confrences etc as we are a long way from anywhere, but our vets do go and are encourage to attend things that relate to their interests.

I am quite unsure why that particular vet would think it okay to breed from that particular bitch though???? Defies logic! But there will always people that do that regardless.

Does say the AVA see that the legislation is sent to the reg'd vets? They cannot know if they never recieve the info?

I'd like to think that we educate rather than slam a group of people, after all these are the people that buyers of puppies will be going to for health concerns vaccinations etc.

I educated my vets when I was working there and gained much more in return.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[poodlefan]

Woofenpup:

The AVERAGE graduate is LUCKY to get $40,000 what about the unlucky below average? Other professions dont take 5yrs of study+ continued learning after they have graduated.......

Medicine?

Law?

[WreckitWhippet]

The main point I was trying to make was the vet had either had no knowledge of the new legislation, or thought the legislation only pertained to pure-bred dogs.

It's not limited to just the recent changes in legislation. There are still vets in NSW who are advising people not to chip their puppies until they are 6 months old and to do it at the time of desexing. Mandatory chipping at the point of sale or at 12 weeks ( which ever comes first ) has been a requirement in NSW for many years.

[mongo1]

This is really sad!

Did anyone consider the hours and time and efforts vets put into studying a wide range of different animals to become a vet? So they don't always get it right, I bet you made some mistakes too when you were learning and maybe you didn't always phrase things correctly! Vets train alot harder and for longer than your average doctor and are not as widely supported by a government medical system.

If you want to improve Vet education go to a uni and discuss with the lecturers and the dean on ways of improving the education system, it might give you a better understanding of the curriculum they have set out for vets!!!!!

[mongo1]

I'd like to think that we educate rather than slam a group of people, after all these are the people that buyers of puppies will be going to for health concerns vaccinations etc.

I educated my vets when I was working there and gained much more in return.

So true!

[Snout Girl]

i am in no way vet bashing, as i stated earlier 'they dont all suck, there are good and bad in every profession'

and i have never said i dont value the work they do.

i care for my dog and as a result want him to receive the vet care he needs, so in that respect i am not a 'consumer with a choice'. either i can neglect my dog or i can get him care. in my opinion there is no choice there.

and yes, nothing will convince me $10 a minute is reasonable to pay for vet care.

regarding education, would communication between different animal bodies (i.e. vets, breeder and canine councils, animal biologists etc) make information more readily avaiable? perhaps a centralised database that can be contributed to by all sorts of bodies that each have their area of speciality?

[Dogsfevr]

This is really sad!

Did anyone consider the hours and time and efforts vets put into studying a wide range of different animals to become a vet? So they don't always get it right, I bet you made some mistakes too when you were learning and maybe you didn't always phrase things correctly! Vets train alot harder and for longer than your average doctor and are not as widely supported by a government medical system.

If you want to improve Vet education go to a uni and discuss with the lecturers and the dean on ways of improving the education system, it might give you a better understanding of the curriculum they have set out for vets!!!!!

Mongo after all the years of studying they should get it right,the practise nurse should also be there to ensure there up to date.

In the case mentioned here there is no excuse for getting it so wrong or being so ignorant over what the results could be on the pups & those that buy them.