Pro Print Labs

[Ripley]

I did a quick search but can't find it. I've saved 16 bit files in psd format to a usb stick and there is nobody around Sydney who can print them, not even Ted's cameras or the photo lab downstairs. I've called about 4 places. They all only accept 8 bit jpegs. What is the name of that pro lab people were recommending?

The photos are for the partner of a friend. I spent a lot of time editing them and I don't want her to just run off and print them at BigW and have them looking like crap. I've put them on a usb stick but should I be printing them at a pro lab for her and sending them off? I'll charge her for printing only, but she wants them on a stick and I don't want my hard work unravelled by Big W or Harvey Norman quality prints, which is where she will go. Should I hand over the high res files though? I shot them in raw and they are all 16 bit tiffs at home.

[Linda K]

For me, it would depend on what the deal was - is this just a favour for a friend that you are giving shots to, or did this person pay for digital files? If they paid for files, then you should be delivering them in a way they can print them, and sadly you cannot enforce where they get them printed, that is up to them. I make a couple of suggestions of some prosumer labs that they can use, but if they don't use them, well I have already been paid for the sale. If you are giving them shots, then I would be giving them the prints, and keeping that stick as a backup for them.

Personally, if I have sold digital files to a client, I will always also get a 5x7 pro print done of each file anyway, which I gift them as part of the product with the files, so they can see what a professional print looks like (and therefore not come back when they get them printed at Teds or somewhere, and they print them all wonky colorwise to my nicely calibrated shots that are calibrated to my lab. I also save the files as jpegs onto a CDrom for them, as well as giving them a watermarked websized file.

For my lab, I only ever upload over the web, as jpegs, so no idea where you would be able to go and get a USB stick 16bit file done. Also, not sure why you are saving them as a PSD for her, surely that means if she has access to software she can more easily edit what you have done than if you gave her a jpeg?

[Ripley]

I save as psd files for myself, sometimes tiff in case I want to go back and re-edit. I should have saved them as jpegs but it was so hot last night, I think my brain was foggy so I dumped them on a stick and that was it. The more I think about it though, you are right. I took the pics as a favour after she asked me if I would take photos. I am not charging her for them and I spent a few hours editing them.

I sent her two of them in high res and she is now pestering me for the others and raving how much she loves them. It was just a favour as she asked me for some shots of her child, I didn't think she'd love the two I sent her so much. So I think I will email her small sized and any she wants I'll print at a pro lab, normal size and she can pay me for them.

She does has a sense of entitlement about her and expects them all large sized on a stick to do whatever with. She's not a friend, but I've known her for many years due to her being the ex of a friend of mine. The more I think about it, the more I want to kind of protect what I've done so I might send her small jpeg size of the photos, she can say which ones she wants printed and I'll just charge her printing costs. I've given them some b/w treatment with different tints and done some PS work on the colour prints so I don't want them to look crappy printed at Harvey Norman or similar. She'll get the poos about that but too bad. That sounds fussy but it's just how I feel. She's already sent me an email asking if I've left the usb stick in my letterbox as she is coming around. Thank god I'm at work.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Ripley

[kja]

All of my pro prints are done from jpegs. I send mine over the web to them but many also accept disks.

[Ripley]

Yep, I've made my decision. I'm not going to be a pushover and considering the time I spent on them, she's not gettting high res files on a stick to print at Big W or similar corner place. I've found a pro lab at Waterloo so I will use them if she wants some prints done. If not, she can get the smaller sized printed whereever but won't be able to blow them up.

eta: Can someone explain the diff with 16 bit and 8 bit and you can only convert 8 bit to jpeg right? I don't have a home printer so have no idea. I want the best colour I can for my own photos of wildlife I want to print out, where colour is everything.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Ripley

[kja]

FWIW printing at BigW etc should still produce fine looking images, they don't suck nearly as much as some believe they do. The big problems are consistency from time to time and having a colour cast that shouldn't be there. I advise my clients that they are viable print option, though I do not recommend them for these reasons. I further tell them that if they do choose one of these automatic printers and something just doesn't look right, to have the auto-printer redo them because the files should print correctly each and every time - if they don't it's who they used to print.

The next issue is paper & ink quality, though some of these auto guys do use some OK papers. Advise that the prints will fade or colours will change over time (and usually "time" is a year or so). Strangely, I have found that Snapfish prints keep their colour very well - my test prints are over two years old and are still going strong.

It really helps them understand what they should be getting out of the file and how to make sure that they can get a result they are happy with. Most simply decide that it's better for the long run to have them done at one of the recommended labs or to have me do them so they don't have to futz at all!

[Ripley]

Thanks kja. So if you took photos and spent time editing them for an acquaintance, you would charge them the printing and send them to her after emailing small jpeg sizes for her to look at or would you hand over the high res files? I am thinking I don't want to hand over high res jpegs for her to do whatever with. I don't want her to show around crappy prints from the corner lab and she wants to put them in some photo book she is doing for her family. I've printed some of my pics at 2 diff labs in the city and the difference in quality was amazing. Harvey Norman were better than the photographic place downstairs who sell cameras and pride themselves on being a good printing corner store but then I printed some more at a different Harvey Norman and they were wishy washy.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Ripley

[kja]

It depends on what was agreed or what I said I would do. I can't imagine even working on images without a conversation on what I was going supply. If there was no conversation, I'd only send a watermarked very small - 60/80kb ish - shot probably and then say if she did want prints that it would be X - Mates Rates if I wasn't on a job and hadn't agreed to anything before.

That inconsistency is the biggest problem with auto-printing places. Their staff have no clue and the machines get calibrated whenever and usually by people who don't really care about the outcome. When you find a good El Cheapo (as I like to call them) stick with it and if they give you crap one time tell them - often it's because their staff have changed and the new ones don't care/don't know. The local Walmart near my dad's has had the same core employees for a few years and they do very very good prints consistently. The one in the next town sucks the big ones to try and get anything halfway decent.

What did you guys talk about when you took these images? That's going to go a long way in determining what I'd do.

btw working on dngs (or even a copy of the RAW file) instead of TIFFs will give you non-destructive edits and have smaller files in the end. Lightroom loves dng I couldn't tell you the last time I dealt with a TIFF - too big and cumbersome for no benefit.

[Ripley]

It depends on what was agreed or what I said I would do. What did you guys talk about when you took these images? That's going to go a long way in determining what I'd do.

Brief email went something like, "Can you take your good camera to Melb and take some shots of her?" Me: "All right"

Then I sent her 2 pics, she raved about them and wanted me to do more. I spent a few hours making them look better, converting some to b/w and adding a few mild effects and doing different versions of each as not everyone likes what I like.

I don't do people pics so this was my first time, I didn't know she'd be so happy with the 2 I sent her and now want high res files of them all.

[kja]

that's a tough one. I a friend had asked me and I said yes, I would supply the images on a disk to use. However, I would never just do that without nailing some other details.

"yeah, I'd be happy to do that and I'll give you a couple watermarked web size for your facebook"

"yeah, I'd be happy to. I'll do them, pop them up in your own gallery so you can see them and then let me know which you want printed. 4x6s are $x, 5x7s are $y etc - anything you want another size or on canvas or whatever, I can give you a quote for"

"yeah, I'll do them and pop a few on a disk for you so you can print them wherever you want to"

"yea, I'd be happy to! I usually charge $250 for that but I'll waive the session fee and then you can either get a disk of everything I finalize for $x or you can order at mate's rates of 4x6 $y, 8x12 $z etc. Or you can ask and I can get a quote to you for whatever quantity and sizes"

When a non-tog asks a tog to shoot something for them and the tog agrees, mostly they simply expect you to hand over the files - they don't really understand that it's not like at a family gathering where everyone emails the images they took to each other.

Once she asked for more, I would have again been clear on what I was happy with.

I'd give over what I've done this time - maybe, depends on her attitude LOL - and chalk it up to learning experience. OR, thinking about it, I might say "wow, I'm glad you really like them. I'll get those others printed for you - just let me know what sizes and quantities and I'll get you a quote on them. If you don't want to mess with printing the first two I gave you, just let me know and I'll do those for you in the quote, too"

If you aren't clear about what you are providing you can't expect the client/person to figure it out - they assume you shoot coz they asked, you give them the shots.

Edited January 13, 2010 by kja

[Ripley]

She's not a friend and annoyed me a bit by pestering me for the photos a few days after I got back. I sent an email saying my other personal photos I've taken take priority and I'd do them in a month for her - I've finally done them. If I knew she had this sense of entitlement about it, I wouldn't have taken the pics. I've already said I'm not doing the family photo thing for her, I'm not interested and she wouldn't pay as she doesn't have the money - very understandable. However, there are plenty of pro places near where she works she can go to for a family portrait.

OK, how I feel about it is, I've put a lot of effort into making them look nice. I've done different versions of them to taste. I don't want her to print out large versions of them at a mini lab so I will now send her the smaller sizes where she can print them out standard 6 x 8 or whatever it is and any larger prints she wants, she can email me, pay me for the print costs only so I'm not out of pocket and I can get them printed at a pro lab and have them sent to her.

Thanks for the feedback, kja. If I ever do this again, I won't charge for the session but I will for prints at a better lab. It's not something I want to get into, but someone else from work wants me to take pics of their baby and I'm avoiding it. It's not a privilege to get asked to do that if you aren't getting paid, it's a pain in the butt. I'm not remotely interested in children, maybe that's it.

[kja]

Be aware that if you send her files, she will print at any size she wants - so small files will look terrible. if you're going to give her files, just do it and chalk this one up to learning so you have all your ducks in a row next time.

Unfortunately, you set a precedent with her by giving her the first two files. And unless there's more that you haven't added here, you never told her you were expecting to be compensated in any way. I think her expectations, as someone who asked you to do the photos and who wasn't told otherwise, are pretty standard - not a sense of entitlement.

She doesn't care that you've put in a lot of work. She asked if you would, you said yes and you did it. You didn't arrange with her for payments or anything else. You chose how much work to put in and if you wanted to be compensated for it, you needed to tell her that and see if she agreed.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I just don't see anywhere in your dealings with her that she wasn't going to get the files or free prints or whatever?

You really need to be clear and upfront when doing things like this. If you were upfront and clear with her, then you need to remind her of your agreement and only then turn over prints or files.

I know, it sucks. Almost everyone does this ... ONCE

[Ripley]

The first 2 pics I sent I reduced them but they were larger than 6 x 8.

I've got to convert them all now to jpeg anyway.

I know, it sucks. Almost everyone does this ... ONCE

it's ok, I can take it. From now on I'm only taking photos for ME.

[kja]

FWIW I've had some of my web size images reprinted at 8x12 ... did they look perfect? No. Did they look OK? Unfortunately, yeah especially to those just glancing at them!

I hear you loud and clear on the only for ME thing - that's pretty much all I do for my underwater stuff despite egging on from outside forces. I have to have something that's just for me - no deadline, no expectation, no required output, no muss, no fuss. Just joy.

[Linda K]

exactly, would second what KJA says in that I have heard from others on my photography forum who have had people swipe shots from their galleries even, and then printed them out (watermark and all, and pixelated to boot), on their home printers, so you can always expect if people want to do this, that unlike photographers, they really won't care if they look awful, as they have emotional investment in the shot. the best thing you can do is make sure you are compensated up front so if they never come back to you to order prints, but choose to do so themselves, that you have been covered for time and talent. Not sure how many shots you took, but even if you only did it as a favour, and have no interest at this time at pursuing that type of photography, I would still make sure that what you hand over best showcases your talent - if there is not one shot you would be proud to bear your name and grace a wall in 5 years,. do not hand it over.

Unfortunately, unless you had already agreed to money for images, you can't really introduce it now, but would make it clear up front for any future jobs. I have also found that the most demanding people are always those that you do freebie jobs for, who want the world for nothing, and have no respect for your time at all, people who have engaged you and know what they are after and don't tend to be quite as over the top or pushy. Think you are best shot of this one, give her your best and move on!!!!

[Ripley]

I don't want any money, just that if she wants enlarged prints, which she does, she will let me choose where they are printed and pay the print costs only. My friend also wants a copy of a few of them, but she is different, she'd be happy to pay me the print costs from the lab of my choice. I also took some pics of my friend's dog for her, but am happy for them to be printed wherever as with dog photos, I don't spend much time on them in PS.

I've sent her an email anyway, saying I'll send her the smaller jpeg files to print standard mini lab size 6 x 4 but I'd rather that if she wants enlargements, she let me print them at the lab of my choice and she can pay the printing cost. I certainly don't want any money from her, I just want the cost of printing at a pro lab reimbursed. Are they expensive? I'm going to get a website up (eventually, I have so much to go through) just for my personal interest and friends/family/work colleagues who always ask me if I have one yet. I have so much to go through and OH doesn't like me on the computer at night as it's the only chance we get to spend time together, as we both work full time. I don't want to get into portraits or dog photography, but it's ok doing it for the experience. I happen to like taking pics of wildlife and travels the most.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Ripley

[rubiton]

Agree with what kja says - if they are a high res file they should look OK (well unless they are being printed the size of a house) from jpeg files regardless of where they are printed.

I do all my printing (well everything really) using jpegs. I did scan all my negs in as tiffs but always save as jpegs for printing. Being copied from your computer to a CD and then being read by a printer will not degrade the image for printing.

[Linda K]

bit confused here - do you already use a pro lab, or are you looking to also set an account up at one to use? Not sure whether you will be able to set one up yourself if you are not in the business, as I know a lot of them check your business name, website etc to make sure you are in the business, before they will allow you to open an account and use their services. Prices vary between the labs, so do your homework, and remember that you will also need to factor in postage etc, so generally I will try to combine orders where I can so that the postage evens out across all of them.

[Ripley]

I rang one yesterday around Sydney and they take anyone and offer basic and prestige printing services.

Last night I converted them all to 8 bit jpegs and put them on a stick for her. I thought, whatever, I'll know next time. She emailed me to say that if she wants to get one blown up, she will ask me where is the better lab. The one I rang are at Waterloo in Sydney. If she likes the rest of them as much as the two I sent her (I gave her the same photos done in a few different ways re post processing, she said she will ask me to photograph her 2 teenage sons and if she does, I'll charge for it. Thanks for all your input