Moving From Novice To Open

[The Spotted Devil]

Agree with b. Zig is obsessed with sniffing and peeing so I set him up for success. Reinforce for position with clicker/food/bridge word as appropriate and then release to run and do as he likes. Call him back, play the 2 food game, quick bit of heel work and release. Remember also that dogs will sniff if stressed. I think really nice heel work is an extremely complex exercise. Don't make the mistake of assuming that your dog really does "get it". The body language is your key.

ETA: I should add that Ziggy often initiates training when he is having a free run which is just lovely and quite the turn around!

Edited January 26, 2010 by The Spotted Devil

[huski]

I find Daisy won't even think about smells on the ground now when we are training - I am always quick to finish training leaving her wanting more, and I get good focus if she is nice and drivey and im the most exciting thing ever. You mentions she loves the two food game and gives nice snappy downs when you play it, think of making a similar game for heelwork so it too becomes really fun for her.

What do you do when you start a training session? Do you rev her up and get her excited or play a game etc?

[Ptolomy]

HMm not knowing the dog, what and how you have trained it is hard to suggest things, but I am assuming that you believe that your dog should know the exercise?

For the smelling and peeing I would be inclined to take the dog very nicely by the collar, not say anything and put the dog back in the car for a time out...... Then get the dog out again and see what happens.

[Zug Zug]

Thanks everyone!

Ptolomy - she is an ex-head-case pound poodle cross who is now nearly 12. Still very energetic, and will always be very smart and a bit independent of mind. Needs to work. Also likes to be top dog. Humps my other (long-suffering) dog to remind him of this. Usually a happy and willing worker and generally speaking loves to train and REALLY loves to jump. I wish I'd got her into agility when she was younger - she would have loved it.

Yes she knows these exercises (didn't start formal obedience training until she was 7ish but she knows the ropes now) and performs them beautifully when she is in the mood. I'm feeling guilty for complaining about her because she worked really well tonight. But it's the consistency thing. We've never been a reliable team - some days great, other days awful. Mainly because I'm a learner trainer. I've never trained at this level before.

Perhaps I'll try both things. Build in the 'go for a run' thing on cue (as a reward - yes B you are right she loves it), and then use a time out (which I've never done before) for the times she is clearly just switching off and ignoring me deliberately (e.g. when she goes off to sniff on her own initiative, then refuses to come back when I call her first time).

Would that combination make sense?

[caffy]

Thanks everyone!

Perhaps I'll try both things. Build in the 'go for a run' thing on cue (as a reward - yes B you are right she loves it), and then use a time out (which I've never done before) for the times she is clearly just switching off and ignoring me deliberately (e.g. when she goes off to sniff on her own initiative, then refuses to come back when I call her first time).

Would that combination make sense?

It's no quick fix, but something I do with my guys if they are dragging me to a nice smell is to ask for a sit or any behaviour and then a release to the smell. It is use of the Premack as bedazzled described and just something I've done since they were pups.

HTH

[bedazzledx2]

Yes ZZ that does make sense. So long as you mark the correct behaviour (click or verbal yes) and give a clear release cue "go sniff". Ptolomy's suggestion would also work when she just ignoring you and won't play your game.

Thanks everyone!

Ptolomy - she is an ex-head-case pound poodle cross who is now nearly 12. Still very energetic, and will always be very smart and a bit independent of mind. Needs to work. Also likes to be top dog. Humps my other (long-suffering) dog to remind him of this. Usually a happy and willing worker and generally speaking loves to train and REALLY loves to jump. I wish I'd got her into agility when she was younger - she would have loved it.

Yes she knows these exercises (didn't start formal obedience training until she was 7ish but she knows the ropes now) and performs them beautifully when she is in the mood. I'm feeling guilty for complaining about her because she worked really well tonight. But it's the consistency thing. We've never been a reliable team - some days great, other days awful. Mainly because I'm a learner trainer. I've never trained at this level before.

Perhaps I'll try both things. Build in the 'go for a run' thing on cue (as a reward - yes B you are right she loves it), and then use a time out (which I've never done before) for the times she is clearly just switching off and ignoring me deliberately (e.g. when she goes off to sniff on her own initiative, then refuses to come back when I call her first time).

Would that combination make sense?

[Zug Zug]

Thanks - will try this week and let you know how it goes.

[Dova]

Keep up the work Zug Zug, you'll be flying through the grades , glad you started this thread I'm learning heaps too :p. Took Delta to school Sunday, sooo proud, even with all the distractions she listened, sat, dropped & came when I gave the cues, what a little star, ok I'm bias . Won't be long & she'll be out there in the ring :p.

[Zug Zug]

Okay, another update:

Heel free - improving

SFE - still good - she seems quite confident with it these days. Which is great because was not always that way :D

Drop on recall - we're still doing the 2 food game, still loving it. Keeping it separate from the recall until we get through our last novice trial.

Retrieve dumbbell on flat - pretty good. Not much sniffing at the moment. But she comes in crooked and sits a good metre in front of me a lot of the time. Hmm.

Retrieve over jump - same as above, only FASTER!

Distance Control - weird new problem. Does it really well from 1m, 1.5m. But as soon as I am further away she gets confused. She does the drop really well, but then when I give her the signal to sit (my hand vertical above my head) she wriggles forward and drops again. Really odd - she never does it when I'm closer, only when I'm further away. Any ideas about this?

Sit stay out of sight - pretty good - we're up to 2 mins mostly. She's getting there.

Drop stay out of sight - same - we're up to 3.5 mins quite comfortably. Did it with other dogs today no major probs but a few little whines but she stayed which is the main thing.

I'd be really interested in some feedback on the distance control thing. Is this a common problem? She really does seem to think it is a different signal altogether when I'm a bit further away. Should I just increase the distance very, very slowly perhaps?

Oh and BTW I tried a time out for misbehaviour (sniffing) the other day. She got the message very quickly. I think I'll keep having to do it though. But noticed a definite improvement. I've also reduce the amount of food she was getting (too many treats - she was getting a little bit pudgy so I've cut out the denta bones for a while) and that has increased her motivation also. Verging on desperation at the moment - she is very keen to earn her food rewards. Suits me :D

[Dova]

Sounds like you're progressing very well, even with the problems Zug Zug, I'll be expecting a pass from you at Gawler. I sent my entry today, was going to do the Matt Webb school but I'm having problems with Izzi & thought it'd be better to do Gawler with Pebbles, see you there & keep up the good work .

[Ptolomy]

Oh and BTW I tried a time out for misbehaviour (sniffing) the other day. She got the message very quickly. I think I'll keep having to do it though. But noticed a definite improvement. I've also reduce the amount of food she was getting (too many treats - she was getting a little bit pudgy so I've cut out the denta bones for a while) and that has increased her motivation also. Verging on desperation at the moment - she is very keen to earn her food rewards. Suits me

Be consistent so if you are training and she sniffs don't let her get away with it one time and then give her a time out next time.

As for your distance control problem - its a common one - you are going to have to increase the distance a little bit at a time and go back to rewarding it heavily. Putting the reward behind her can help with the movment forward but it can also blow their minds knowing that there is a treat there

[ZAUBISTAR]

Hiya,

As I'm training for this at the moment not sure how helpful but....

Could she be confusing the 'sit' command with the recall?

What is your normal signal for a straight recall?

What signal have you been using for the drop on recall training?

Are they all too similar? If so what else could you use?

I've needed to really mix up the COP work to stop Acteon anticipating eg. leaving him in a sit then going through drop, sit or leaving him in stand then getting COP and also leaving in down the doing COP. It's working well and giving him more of a chance to differentiate between SFE and DOR.

As I said I'm learning this too so I'm interested to hear other experienced opinions.

Good luck and please keep the updates coming because I'm finding it all very helpful

[Zug Zug]

Ah Ptolomy you've got me there - I do have a weakness for being inconsistent. I did say I was the weakest link in this partnership, didn't I? Now spontaneity - that I'm pretty good at. But yes you are right I do need to be consistent with her about this sniffing thing. She will exploit every weakness if I let her (smart dog). So I promise to make it a rule and try VERY HARD to stick with it.

I will be patient and consistent. I will be patient and consistent...

Brigidstar - good question about these 2 signals. My recall signal is a bit wild. It involves both of my arms flying madly above my head and back behind me a bit. My left arm moves less distance and less height because of a neck injury so I'm less flexible on that side. So it looks a bit weird and lopsided, but Zamba seems to be used to it.

My sit signal is my right arm only, moving in a (comparatively) orderly way straight up - i.e. not swinging forward and up, but curling up close to my body and then heading straight up above my head, then straight back down to my side.

There is some similarity (the height on my right hand side mainly), but overall they're fairly different. And she isn't actually coming to me when I give the sit signal. She's looking confused, wiggle wiggle squirm forward and stop there in a drop. You've gotta laugh - where did THAT idea come from??? But she's definitely trying hard

I think the idea of making sure the signals are obviously different is a really good point. I might slightly vary my recall signal to be wider, more out at say a 45 degree angle on both sides and less high, and concentrate on my sit signal being straight up and straight down. That would also be a neater motion for the recall - less wonky. I will try that.

Will also take very little baby steps increasing distance for distance control and give her time to get used to it. She does seem to like doing it. She kind of bounces up into a beg and then lands back down onto her front paws.

Dova - don't count any chickens. We've signed up for the SAODC trial as well. Remember our sniffy itchy scratchy heeling at the last Gawler trial? The judge asked me 'is there something wrong with your dog?' and I thought 'well, how long have you got...???' but she came good in the end. I don't want to get my hopes up about this next one (but yes it would be so nice to pass).

Another question: if we pass our 3rd leg of Novice, can we still go along and compete at another Novice trial 2 weeks later? Or do we have to wait after that until we're ready for Open? I think it might be quite a while before we're ready to compete in Open class, and I don't want to be out of circulation too long. I'm hoping we get to that level later this year.

Or can we do veterans or vintage in the meantime? She's nearly 12. I bet she's way faster than any other 12yo dog! And better looking

[ZAUBISTAR]

Another question: if we pass our 3rd leg of Novice, can we still go along and compete at another Novice trial 2 weeks later? Or do we have to wait after that until we're ready for Open? I think it might be quite a while before we're ready to compete in Open class, and I don't want to be out of circulation too long. I'm hoping we get to that level later this year.

Or can we do veterans or vintage in the meantime? She's nearly 12. I bet she's way faster than any other 12yo dog! And better looking

As far as I'm aware, any dog can compete in a class for as long as you like providing a pass at a higher level has not yet been achieved. The 3 highest scores are then used when applying for your title.

I'm not sure what veterans or vintage is? We're a slow bunch down here

[Zug Zug]

OK I promised to keep you all up to date, so here it is (the inconsistent truth):

Heel free - good at the moment. No sniffing or scratching. Effort paying off. Famous last words.

SFE - also good. Pretty stable.

Drop on recall - 2 food game a particular favourite and getting instant drops at short and long distances. Have tried a few real DORs - she doesn't do an instant drop yet but she always drops. Keeps running a bit before she drops so this still needs work. But it's a start.

Retrieve dumbbell on flat - awesome and lots of enthusiasm. White dumbbell made HUGE difference. She used to lose sight of the orange one. Now she runs straight to it.

Retrieve dumbbell over jump - ditto and quite reliable now. Sometimes stops too far away from my feet but not much.

Distance control - pretty good at 3m or so. Still creeping forward in a drop if I am too far away when I give the signal to sit. Trying to be careful and build very slowly so this does not become a habit.

3 min. sit stay out of sight - not too bad at home but not 100%. Not always stable yet when we're out. Needs more work.

5 min down stay out of sight - I keep losing my nerve and going back to her too soon. But she's not breaking from position so I don't know why I do that. I am the weakest link here.

Still dying to know how much of a travel on the DOR is too far, and how much is ok. Zamba runs really fast on the recall (her personal favourite exercise), so this may always be an issue for us. Once I've got novice out of the way I'll work on this one in earnest. Until then, just fiddling around and putting the building blocks in place.

Attempting 3rd leg of novice next weekend, so no more open exercises until then (so we don't get confused). Fingers crossed!

[RubyStar]

Zug Zug, do you have access to a video camera and have yourself a YouTube channel? You should video some of your training so not only you can see how you're doing, how you're progressing and see what you need to work on, but the more experienced people here can have a look and give you some feedback on how you're doing and some tips on how to fix things you are having issues on

[Ptolomy]

Zug Zug, do you have access to a video camera and have yourself a YouTube channel? You should video some of your training so not only you can see how you're doing, how you're progressing and see what you need to work on, but the more experienced people here can have a look and give you some feedback on how you're doing and some tips on how to fix things you are having issues on

and then you can post them on the Youtube thread

With the presenting too far away - after you take the dumbbell reward her by standing still and throwing food between your legs behind you and tell her to get it - she should run between your legs to get the food - while she is eating it about turn and when she has finished call her and reward if the present is straight and close.

[BeagleBoys2]

If stays are not 100% the dog does not understand what stay is. I used to hate it when veteran handlers would tell me this and then never follow through with how to fix it.

You need to proof your dog's stays.

Perhaps you may even need to change the word you use for the out of sight stay...consider it. I used to simply use the stay hand signal combined with sit or drop for one of my dogs (unfortunately he died of cancer before stand had to be introduced). Another dog I use hand positioning as a reminder...if I am not going to ask him to break the "stay" my hands will return to my sides. If I am going to ask him to break the "stay" I use the word wait and position my hands in front of my body but using the stay hand signal. He knows the position of my hands means I will ask him to front or move position.

Fronting and heeling are fun games we play in the backyard. Depending on where my hands are I can have three dogs run to front or heel by me.

Okay so how do you proof. A clicker or food is great for this. Some positions I am able to simply clip a lead on my dog's flat collar put him into position, tell him to stay and start firstly gently pulling on the lead. If he applies the necessary pressure to remain in a stay, he is rewarded with a click and a tasty treat. For my dog this only works for the sit and stand. He holds position now no matter how much pressure I apply or from what angle I apply it.

For the down stay I put him in position and give him the command to stay. Then I throw food around him, re-enforcing that I want the stay. After a varied period of time I use his kennel prefix as a release word and he collects all of his treats.

[Zug Zug]

I'll try that food trick and see how we go. Luckily she's fairly small!

I've just filmed a bit of stuff and am about to try and work out how to load it onto youtube. Back soon.

[Zug Zug]

OK - link to us on youtube here:

Shows a bit of heeling, some distance control (she did it right this time - not always the way), the 2 food game with drops and then a straight drop in front showing how she likes to run a bit before dropping. So a reasonable sample of where we're up to. Aint she beautiful??!! :D

Sound advice that we need to work more on the stays. I agree. Don't have time now but will read your post in detail when I get back this arvo and work more on that. If you can get beagles to do obedience then I reckon you must know your stuff! (My sister had a beagle when we were teenagers. Great dog, amazing nose, no recall whatsoever when she was on a scent. Memories of chasing her in the street with a raw sausage in my hand...)

(Edited to link to compressed file so you don't need to download the huge version - and also to add some video footage of Mozart as well)

Edited February 13, 2010 by Zug Zug