'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[Aussieflicker]

Erny that's the thing, your ANKC membership is paying for this PR bloke Peter Higgins to spend his time representing your interests, why isn't he doing just that? It is his job to pursue all available opportunities to represent you that is what he is paid for.

This thread is about a specific seminar at Monash University. Any outside speakers are invited to a seminar, to support the in-house staff position being presented. Dr Peter Higgins, in his capacity as PR vet for a Kennel Club, was obviously not invited.

A whole list of other people who'd have an academic or stakeholder interest in the issues, were also not invited. As is the wont with seminars....which are much, much narrower than conferences.

Have they asked to go on the "seminar invite/notification" list though? Would they not be like me, who did this? Should they wait for a special invitation? Of course, it would be nice (and I would have thought, sensible, for AWA to have specifically contacted these sorts of people - especially if they are after good and balanced input and not potentially just an audience that will be easily persuaded to what they are doing), but that doesn't mean that the people of the ANKC/VicDogs and any other in relevance to their own States shouldn't have known to have made the move to ensure their participation was on the invite list.

What is AWA?

[Erny]

What is AWA?

AWA = Animal Welfare Authority.

But my apologies - In my passion I have inadvertently referred to AWA on occasions when I meant "AWSC" (Animal Welfare Science Centre) who are the people who sent out the notification of the seminar.

[huski]

As for cross breeding .. . I think the Lab was improved by cross breeding with a hodge-podge of gun dog and occasional other breeds ~1800 to 1950. I don't think we should be jumping on others who try to create new breeds through cross breeding. The example I know is the Rat Terrier . . . mostly a 20th century breed that mixes ground-dog prey drive with more affable traits . . . and which would not exits if the extreme anti-cross-breeding community had its way. I can see some sort of 'spoodle' being a great family dog . . . and I wouldn't condemn anyone for trying to breed some heat tolerant and not so food obsessed traits into Labrador lines to come up with a new breed.

On Kate Schoeffel's website she states the reason she is breeding a beagle/cav cross is because a beagle's instinct to scent is the only thing stopping them from being a perfect family pet. She is cross breeding them with cavs because (in her words) Cavs are a toy pet breed wih no hunting instinct at all (tell that to the energetic toy mad cavs I see in agility/obedience!). Apparently this will create a beagle like dog with no or a seriously reduced scent drive.

How she thinks she can remove an instinct that has been bred into the breed for centuries is beyond me, but she's still aiming to retain their ears albeit with a slightly shorter snout - she guarantees they will be "totally non aggressive" - obviously she doesn't consider the role socialisation and training play in our dog's behaviour.

It makes me sick in the stomach to think that she wants to remove the very instinct and drive that makes the breed what it is. Everything about a beagle is there to help it scent, the shape and structure of it's nose, the long floppy ears, their stubborness and drive. Why buy a beagle if you don't want to own a scent hound? She also said that once a beagle gets their nose to the ground they become deaf to all commands - I know a few beags who do obedience including my own and we have no problem keeping our dogs noses off the ground.

[mita]

Erny that's the thing, your ANKC membership is paying for this PR bloke Peter Higgins to spend his time representing your interests, why isn't he doing just that? It is his job to pursue all available opportunities to represent you that is what he is paid for.

This thread is about a specific seminar at Monash University. Any outside speakers are invited to a seminar, to support the in-house staff position being presented. Dr Peter Higgins, in his capacity as PR vet for a Kennel Club, was obviously not invited.

A whole list of other people who'd have an academic or stakeholder interest in the issues, were also not invited. As is the wont with seminars....which are much, much narrower than conferences.

Have they asked to go on the "seminar invite/notification" list though? Would they not be like me, who did this? Should they wait for a special invitation?

There's a difference between invite & notification. Seminars only invite outsiders to present work.....when that work follows on from some direction the in-house staff is taking.

I have no idea if Monash University has a mailing list which notifies outside stakeholders that they are holding a seminar....& inviting them to attend, not perform (as is the wont for seminars). And, if so, I have no idea whose names are on it.

My argument is that the issue they're covering is far too complex for a simple one-dimensional seminar. Should be opened up far more widely via a conference form. Good conferences are expensive to mount, however. And I don't know who'd pick up that task.

[Pawprints]

As for cross breeding .. . I think the Lab was improved by cross breeding with a hodge-podge of gun dog and occasional other breeds ~1800 to 1950. I don't think we should be jumping on others who try to create new breeds through cross breeding. The example I know is the Rat Terrier . . . mostly a 20th century breed that mixes ground-dog prey drive with more affable traits . . . and which would not exits if the extreme anti-cross-breeding community had its way. I can see some sort of 'spoodle' being a great family dog . . . and I wouldn't condemn anyone for trying to breed some heat tolerant and not so food obsessed traits into Labrador lines to come up with a new breed.

On Kate Schoeffel's website she states the reason she is breeding a beagle/cav cross is because a beagle's instinct to scent is the only thing stopping them from being a perfect family pet. She is cross breeding them with cavs because (in her words) Cavs are a toy pet breed wih no hunting instinct at all (tell that to the energetic toy mad cavs I see in agility/obedience!). Apparently this will create a beagle like dog with no or a seriously reduced scent drive.

How she thinks she can remove an instinct that has been bred into the breed for centuries is beyond me, but she's still aiming to retain their ears albeit with a slightly shorter snout - she guarantees they will be "totally non aggressive" - obviously she doesn't consider the role socialisation and training play in our dog's behaviour.

It makes me sick in the stomach to think that she wants to remove the very instinct and drive that makes the breed what it is. Everything about a beagle is there to help it scent, the shape and structure of it's nose, the long floppy ears, their stubborness and drive. Why buy a beagle if you don't want to own a scent hound? She also said that once a beagle gets their nose to the ground they become deaf to all commands - I know a few beags who do obedience including my own and we have no problem keeping our dogs noses off the ground.

Completely agree with you there Huski. My boy hasn't done obedience like Daisy but I can call him off a scent on the beach off lead, and I can also keep his nose off the ground.

I will be attending this seminar as I work at Monash! One benefit!

[lappiemum]

Erny that's the thing, your ANKC membership is paying for this PR bloke Peter Higgins to spend his time representing your interests, why isn't he doing just that? It is his job to pursue all available opportunities to represent you that is what he is paid for.

This thread is about a specific seminar at Monash University. Any outside speakers are invited to a seminar, to support the in-house staff position being presented. Dr Peter Higgins, in his capacity as PR vet for a Kennel Club, was obviously not invited.

A whole list of other people who'd have an academic or stakeholder interest in the issues, were also not invited. As is the wont with seminars....which are much, much narrower than conferences.

Have they asked to go on the "seminar invite/notification" list though? Would they not be like me, who did this? Should they wait for a special invitation?

There's a difference between invite & notification. Seminars only invite outsiders to present work.....when that work follows on from some direction the in-house staff is taking.

I have no idea if Monash University has a mailing list which notifies outside stakeholders that they are holding a seminar....& inviting them to attend, not perform (as is the wont for seminars). And, if so, I have no idea whose names are on it.

My argument is that the issue they're covering is far too complex for a simple one-dimensional seminar. Should be opened up far more widely via a conference form. Good conferences are expensive to mount, however. And I don't know who'd pick up that task.

ANKC? State canine bodies??

[WoofnHoof]

ANKC? State canine bodies??

Yep they can get the ball rolling all conferences need sponsors it's not just the organisers who fund it, I went to an animal welfare conference partly sponsored by the national egg producers group, they also had a speaker there so it doesn't even have to be an animal welfare group as such, any sponsors with a financial interest in the target group should be involved.

If the ANKC or MDBA or someone wanted to hold a conference they could seek sponsorship from dog food companies etc to fund the cause the same way any other event seeks corporate sponsorship. Then they can invite whatever speakers they like to present on the topic

My point re this seminar is that if the ANKC or similar were on the committee for the AWSC then perhaps they might have had some input as to who would be invited to speak, it's no doubt too late for this one but it's something to keep in mind, the more noticable an organisation or representative is the more likley they will get invited places

ETA since Animals Australia and the RSPCA are on the panel for the AWSC I don't see why the ANKC couldn't ask to be put on it, doesn't cost anything to ask.

Edited January 13, 2010 by WoofnHoof

[Elenbah]

From what I remember, the Seminar in Sydney on the debate of PDE did have members of Dogs NSW in attendance and they were able to present facts that showed research and data collected on different stats . eg the co efficient 's of inbreeding was in fact wrong (and litter registrations from Dogs NSW sent to the University for their studies indeed proved this) (just one example) and to this day if you go to the web site, they still do not acknowledge this or any other points that the pedigree breeders were able to put forward and back up.... This is not on their agenda and they really don't care if they get it wrong, in their eyes you have to just keep trying and eventually someone will come up with and answer (and in the meantime the dog as we know it will no longer exist.)

I myself don't give a hoot is Jo blow wants to buy and live with a cross bred... but what I do object to is that it is not the puppy farmers or the back yard breeders or even the members or the companion pet association they are targeting and who they expect to change and produce the perfect pet...it is the breeders of pedigree dogs they are targeting, why, because we have a paper trail, an open book and easily accessible... force the pedigree breeders to comply and the rest just falls into place....

Let me go about minding my own business, someone stated that the non pedigree population has overtaken the pedigree, that's OK... work with them, legistrate them but let us breed our dogs in peace and for those who truly appreciate the virtues for which our breeds were established...

[mita]

ANKC? State canine bodies??

Kennel Associations could well mount some seminars which (like all seminars) presented a position. In this case, the best of the research around, about purebred dogs. Sure could do with some spreading! And they could be brave & invite an outsider like KS to present her mixed-breeding views in a panel format. (If someone with such an opposite view would accept an invitation!).

BUT a conference would present numbers of positions (so long as the papers could demonstrate they were based on evidence). There you'd have presentations which would show opposite points of view.

Usually places like Universities are good for mounting conferences.....because that's the job of a university, to weigh different sides up. Don't know if any Australian University would pick up that tab, tho'. Costs a lot more to get a wide range of presenters from a variety of sources.

But these issues desperately need getting out into the open....via full, frank & informed debate.

[WoofnHoof]

Is there an international canine org? I know a lot of conferences are held by international organisations there was one last year here in Australia by the international society for equitation science it would be useful if there were a similar organisation which could host a conference on ethical dog breeding?

[lappiemum]

ANKC? State canine bodies??

Kennel Associations could well mount some seminars which (like all seminars) presented a position. In this case, the best of the research around, about purebred dogs. Sure could do with some spreading! And they could be brave & invite an outsider like KS to present her mixed-breeding views in a panel format. (If someone with such an opposite view would accept an invitation!).

BUT a conference would present numbers of positions (so long as the papers could demonstrate they were based on evidence). There you'd have presentations which would show opposite points of view.

Usually places like Universities are good for mounting conferences.....because that's the job of a university, to weigh different sides up. Don't know if any Australian University would pick up that tab, tho'. Costs a lot more to get a wide range of presenters from a variety of sources.

But these issues desperately need getting out into the open....via full, frank & informed debate.

Actually, I've been to a number of both seminars and conferences, here and overseas It would be possible to do either - or even both (attach public seminars to a conference). For a peer reviewed conference it is best to have institution support - which is not impossible, just requires a lot of work and networking with respected academics and researchers. Hey, if the ANKC wants someone to do, pay me and I'll leave my current boring research job and go do dog stuff!

[WoofnHoof]

The only major international org I could find was the FCI who don't appear to have conferences but they did refer to a conference being held in Warsaw in a couple of weeks link which looks quite interesting, although the FCI was keen to point out it's nothing to do with them it's some other org called Federación Canina Internacional

I vote lappiemum to be the organiser of the first ever international conference/seminar to be held in Australia on dog breeding stuff!

[mita]

My point re this seminar is that if the ANKC or similar were on the committee for the AWSC then perhaps they might have had some input as to who would be invited to speak, it's no doubt too late for this one but it's something to keep in mind, the more noticable an organisation or representative is the more likley they will get invited places

This seminar' is, like all university seminars, an 'in-house' event of the AWSC. It reflects an in-house staff party line. You might hope the ANKC would be a member on some advisory committee associated with the AWSC. But, even if it were, a seminar program is a staff decision. Any advisory committee has little teeth in a university where academic freedom reigns supreme.

But money 'talks' these days. And I'm struck by the type of language being used....which sounds like the 'spin' of advertising. Like producing the ideal dog for Australia If I remember correctly, it was 2 private organisations which were supplying the funding for that.

(And, god help me, the commercial interest by KS, in producing the less 'scenting' beagle with a shorter nose. Please do not tell KS, how our 2 dogs brilliantly scent tracked a burglar far out into the black night, enabling him to be identified. The police praised them mightily. Those dogs were short-nosed tibbies.)

Supply some money for purebred research & watch any researchers, anywhere, falling over each other to sign up.

Which is why I prefer research grants to go thro' the ACR (Australian Research Council), for funding, where proposals are ranked by independent experts & the money comes from the public purse.

Edited January 13, 2010 by mita

[poodlefan]

I hope someone asks Kate how she intends to produce this non-sniffy beagle without line breeding beyond F1 AND what she proposes to do with the "failures" of her breeding program

Crossbreed, cull the unacceptable progeny, then line breed - it's how nearly purebred dog in the world has developed.

Ask her how she intends to guarantee non-aggression while she's at it.

[lappiemum]

The only major international org I could find was the FCI who don't appear to have conferences but they did refer to a conference being held in Warsaw in a couple of weeks link which looks quite interesting, although the FCI was keen to point out it's nothing to do with them it's some other org called Federación Canina Internacional

I vote lappiemum to be the organiser of the first ever international conference/seminar to be held in Australia on dog breeding stuff!

Sounds good to me! LOL

[mita]

I found there's a NZ Companion Animal group that hosted a 2009 conference. But their brief is more towards welfare. I'd argue, tho', that dog welfare has to take in the complex issues associated with the breeding & raising of dogs. Lots of hard evidence point to both being significant for dogs as companions. Not just the warm fuzzies as presented in a TV ad, with just the right dog, behaving like just the right dog.

http://nzcac.org.nz/companion-animal-conference-2

[Steve]

Gotta love the way everyone is whining about how Peter Higgins hasn't been invited to speak, why would he be? What are the ANKC doing in terms of pedigree dog representation? Do they make their role known to anyone outside the insular world of pedigree dogs? Are they on the advisory committee for the AWSC? If not why not? What about DPI advisory panels? What about RSPCA committees? Has the ANKC put submissions into these organisations to seek representation? Have they sought communication with any of these organisations?

The only way to get your opinion heard is to get off your bum and get onto a committee or ten. No point whinging about others pushing various agendas when you aren't pushing your own beliefs, you expect everyone to come to you and ask you what you think about legislation and guidelines regarding dogs? Aint gonna happen and governments don't go to the RSPCA looking for advice you know, they take the RSPCA's advice because they are the only ones out there pushing their message. But no people would rather sit around whinging about how they weren't invited to speak and wont bother going because they disagree with the 'agenda'. If you want to speak put in an application to speak at the next one, and at every other event remotely concerning dogs, you can't whinge about not having a voice if you can't be bothered seeking avenues where it can be heard.

Im sure you will find that the ANKC and state orgs just as the MDBA have been doing for 6 years have been beating on everyone's door to get accepted onto advisory panels and committees. You have over simplified the situation and missed a rather large part to the issues.

[KismetKat]

There's a difference between invite & notification. Seminars only invite outsiders to present work.....when that work follows on from some direction the in-house staff is taking.

I got a forwarded email of an originating email about this - the original said "pass on to anyone that may be interested" (or something along those lines.

Doesn't sound like a 'closed shop' event to me.

[mita]

There's a difference between invite & notification. Seminars only invite outsiders to present work.....when that work follows on from some direction the in-house staff is taking.

I got a forwarded email of an originating email about this - the original said "pass on to anyone that may be interested" (or something along those lines.

Doesn't sound like a 'closed shop' event to me.

Read what I wrote. I did not say this seminar (or any seminar) was a 'closed shop' for attendance. In fact, I said they may well have a mailing list to notify various people of the event.

What I did say was that outsiders are invited, specifically, by the institution's staff to present papers at a seminar. There is not a general call for papers.

Presentations from any outsiders are by invitation only.

The email you got was an invitation to attend & to pass that on to others.....not a specific invitation from the staff to present a paper.

[Steve]

I understand why there were no outside invites. Its their party. Theres much more to discuss than who was or was not invited -Thats the least of our worries.