'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[mita]

Or did you miss Kate's distortion of facts on her website when she claims:

Studies show that children get bitten by dominant purebred male dogs. Male dogs can make good children's pets if they are desexed.

Why are people taking what this person says on face value when she makes claims with absolutely no basis IN scientific knowledge.

A scientific study from the University of Cordoba. Note crossbreeds were included but in much lesser numbers. Note 'purebreed specific' did not come out in the dog factors associated with aggression.

But note most of all, the prime place of owner's actions.

Breed has less influence on aggressiveness

The Spanish researchers studied 711 dogs (354 males and 357 females) of which 594 were purebred and 117 were half-breed dogs older than one year of age. Among the breeds observed were the Bull Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Alsatian, the Boxer, the Rottweiler, the Doberman, as well as apparently more docile breeds such as the Dalmatian, the Irish Setter, the Golden Retriever, the Labrador Retriever, the Miniature Poodle, the Chihuahua, the Pekinese, or the French Bulldog, which also exhibit dominant behaviour.

According to Pérez-Guisado, certain breeds, male sex, a small size, or an age of between 5-7 years old are "the dog-dependent factors associated with greater dominance aggression". Nevertheless, these factors have "minimal effect" on whether the dog behaves aggressively. Factors linked to the owner's actions are more influential.

Edited February 14, 2010 by mita

[poodlefan]

Breed has less influence on aggressiveness

The Spanish researchers studied 711 dogs (354 males and 357 females) of which 594 were purebred and 117 were half-breed dogs older than one year of age. Among the breeds observed were the Bull Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the Alsatian, the Boxer, the Rottweiler, the Doberman, as well as apparently more docile breeds such as the Dalmatian, the Irish Setter, the Golden Retriever, the Labrador Retriever, the Miniature Poodle, the Chihuahua, the Pekinese, or the French Bulldog, which also exhibit dominant behaviour.

According to Pérez-Guisado, certain breeds, male sex, a small size, or an age of between 5-7 years old are "the dog-dependent factors associated with greater dominance aggression". Nevertheless, these factors have "minimal effect" on whether the dog behaves aggressively. Factors linked to the owner's actions are more influential.

Not what someone reading Kate's website is going to learn is it?

[mita]

Not what someone reading Kate's website is going to learn is it?

Well, Ive always looked warily at small dogs ever since reading the Cordoba study. Just joking.

This is why it puzzled me that a university would ask her to present, re a model for producing pets.

There's lots of sound research which points to the human factor in how dogs' personalities are developed. That should have pride of place in any scientifically sound rationale behind any system of raising puppies & young dogs. Gawd help me.....the military dog people provide a brilliant model based on that. Now if only every puppy destined to be a pet could enrol from birth to 12 months up at Amberley. Just joking again.

And there's already useful assessment tools & guidelines re personality & behaviour (just check out Davis Uni Vet School info on that).

Of course, there are heritable aspects involved in personality. Another reason why sound selection for breeding decisions are critical. Incidentally, 'show' people would have a vested interest in breeding towards a sound temperament. For the simple reason, the showing of dogs requires extensive socialisation around people & other dogs.

Edited February 14, 2010 by mita

[WoofnHoof]

I recall in that thread someone from the UK mentioned that they reguarly hold unregistered pet and amateur shows over there they are a great way for people to get out with their dogs and learn a bit about showing and handling.

As the owner of a pedigree rescue dog that I can't prove is a pedigree (tho rescue 'know' that he is as they recognise by looking at him which breeder he came from) I would love to be able to do this. It would be a hands-on way to learn more about the breed that I have come to love as any future dogs I get will be this breed. It would also give me a good reason to actually join the breed club - but as it stands there is no incentive for me to pay up and join as they club doesn't offer much for 'pet owners' and offers nothing for those of us that don't have a bit of paper.

They frequently offer quite a bit for dogs of their breed with no papers. Breed rescues are often called upon to take on unpedigreed dogs that have fallen on hard times. Who do you think pays to take on dogs not bred or sold by their own memberships? Not the people who breed or buy them, that's for sure.

Seems to me that you need to ask not what the clubs should be doing for people who bought dogs from sources outside their memberships but what as a breed fancier you might be doing to assist your breed of choice.

You join a breed club because you love the breed, not because you gain personally from it.

Backyard breeders are the scourge of the purebred dog world - what do you really want breed club members to do for those who buy from people who do nothing but line their pockets at the expense of the breed club members love

A bit of support for those people who love the breed because of their purchase, regardless of where it came from, and would like to learn more about it and learn where to get their next dog perhaps? It's not like most people who have 'purebred' bybs have deliberately chosen them over registered breeders it's often a result of the visibility of registered breeders, or lack thereof. As well as the perception that registered breeders only breed 'show dogs'. I would have purchased my dog whether he had papers or not because at the time I wasn't aware that there was that much difference, it was only later I was looking into pedigree websites and even then I didn't start serious research until my sibes shunt diagnosis as I wanted to find out whether it was common in sibes*. Heaps of people own bybs and love their breed without knowing the ins and outs of ethical breeding practices.

I don't see how a breed club hopes to grow and gain new members if they offer no support for owners of unregistered dogs, passing up an opportunity to educate about breeds and good breeders seems a little wasteful to me.

ETA *it's not BTW

Edited February 14, 2010 by WoofnHoof

[KismetKat]

KK, I was responding to Steve's note on the seminar.

Both Helen Bennett and Mike Gollard made comment that perhaps people who breed show dogs shouldnt breed pet dogs

Steven needs to add an "only" in that sentence. If they had actually said something that basically meant "if you show your dogs then don't sell dogs as pets" there woulda been a mass walkout!

You seem to be missing the point of my posts. I fully support scientific researchers.

You may PF, but there's been more than a bit of antagonism to the scientists on these forums.

You join a breed club because you love the breed, not because you gain personally from it.

I can "love the breed" and promote them without handing over money to a club that doesn't let join in or do anything except enter a 'waggiest tail' contest.

Why not have a "companion dog" club attached to the breed club? Let anyone with that breed dog join and have activities and fundraisers. Engage the pet owners of the breed. And even if they got their dog from a pet shop you might well find they'll get their next dog of that breed from a registered breeder.

Edited February 14, 2010 by KismetKat

[mita]

KK, I was responding to Steve's note on the seminar.

Both Helen Bennett and Mike Gollard made comment that perhaps people who breed show dogs shouldnt breed pet dogs

Steven needs to add an "only" in that sentence. If they had actually said something that basically meant "if you show your dogs then don't sell dogs as pets" there woulda been a mass walkout!

That's for that, KK. But you haven't picked up on my point that you also said the speakers commented that most registered breeders 'do good job'.

But don't seem to have presented any scientific evidence of why they could say that.

If such evidence exists, that would point to published data which would be useful in producing a general model.

But if there's not evidence......why would they say that at a university seminar? A bit of popularism, perhaps?

Edited February 14, 2010 by mita

[The Spotted Devil]

Something to keep in mind is that just because someone is a key note speaker doesn't mean that us scientists hang on every word they say. It is about the quality of the arguments and the quality of the science. Personally I am as critical, sceptical and questioning as my current knowledge allows. Some presenters make me gasp in awe, others make me dismissive and yet others encourage a little of both. I'll leave it to your imagination on where I stand at the moment

[poodlefan]

Why not have a "companion dog" club attached to the breed club? Let anyone with that breed dog join and have activities and fundraisers. Engage the pet owners of the breed. And even if they got their dog from a pet shop you might well find they'll get their next dog of that breed from a registered breeder.

The ANKC allows owners of unregistered purebred dogs (and crossbred dogs) to join their affiliate companion dog training clubs, register their dogs as Associates and compete in their obedience and agility events for ANKC recognised titles. Perhaps you can do that.

If what you are looking for is a social club then you need to network with other pet dog owners of your breed. That can be done through either a dog training club or a breed club.

Some breed clubs have social days. Plenty more use their specialties as get togethers. But if you are not a member of the club, don't expect those who work their arses off to cater to your needs. Participation in club activity is what will allow you to influence the club's direction. Those active in club activities are usually pretty busy people.

Edited February 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[KismetKat]

That's for that, KK. But you haven't picked up on my point that you also said the speakers commented that most registered breeders 'do good job'.

But don't seem to have presented any scientific evidence of why they could say that.

If such evidence exists, that would point to published data which would be useful in producing a general model.

But if there's not evidence......why would they say that at a university seminar? A bit of popularism, perhaps?

I think they were speaking anecdotedly, but am not sure. I'll look forward to the seminar being actually published so many things discussed here so far can be cleared up. It's too easy to take a single remembered comment, have it taken out of context, and then have a pistols at dawn argument over what was actually being said.

[WoofnHoof]

I just popped into the AMSCQ website and discovered that they now offer shirts for an extra $5 on top of membership - I am soooo there this year

[mita]

Something to keep in mind is that just because someone is a key note speaker doesn't mean that us scientists hang on every word they say.

TSD, I totally understand your own personal respect for the huge challenges of science.

But if it's a scientific setting, why put up a keynote speaker that would make the average scientist raise eyebrows.

I've been noting that matters to do with the development of dogs' personalities didn't figure largely in any of the topics. When I'd expect, from the published literature, it would be a major feature re any seminar that was aiming at 'building' (sic) better pets.

Had that been factored in, any speakers would be chosen to the extent to which they could illuminate or illustrate that.

[poodlefan]

I just popped into the AMSCQ website and discovered that they now offer shirts for an extra $5 on top of membership - I am soooo there this year

And if you attend any meetings, bear in mind that the facilities you use are paid for by the Canine Control - who raise their funds through shows, trials and litter registrations. You're benefitting from the efforts of registered purebred dog breeders and buyers, just by being on the grounds.

Where are all the facilities provided for dog owners by puppy farmers and pet stores?

[KismetKat]

Why not have a "companion dog" club attached to the breed club? Let anyone with that breed dog join and have activities and fundraisers. Engage the pet owners of the breed. And even if they got their dog from a pet shop you might well find they'll get their next dog of that breed from a registered breeder.

The ANKC allows owners of unregistered purebred dogs (and crossbred dogs) to join their affiliate companion dog training clubs, register their dogs as Associates and compete in their obedience and agility events for ANKC recognised titles. Perhaps you can do that.

If what you are looking for is a social club then you need to network with other pet dog owners of your breed. That can be done through either a dog training club or a breed club.

Some breed clubs have social days. Plenty more use their specialties as get togethers. But if you are not a member of the club, don't expect those who work their arses off to cater to your needs. Participation in club activity is what will allow you to influence the club's direction. Those active in club activities are usually pretty busy people.

I can see PF is in an argumentative mood today - but when isn't she?

[mita]

That's for that, KK. But you haven't picked up on my point that you also said the speakers commented that most registered breeders 'do good job'.

But don't seem to have presented any scientific evidence of why they could say that.

If such evidence exists, that would point to published data which would be useful in producing a general model.

But if there's not evidence......why would they say that at a university seminar? A bit of popularism, perhaps?

I think they were speaking anecdotedly, but am not sure. I'll look forward to the seminar being actually published so many things discussed here so far can be cleared up. It's too easy to take a single remembered comment, have it taken out of context, and then have a pistols at dawn argument over what was actually being said.

No pistols drawn, KK. It's all about content.

Their position re registered purebred dog breeding is actually a key point.

Because the title of their seminar was about 'building' better pet dogs.

Registered breeders of purebreds, breed & raise pet dogs. And an alternative model of breeding pets was being presented.

If, at best, purebred breeding was dismissed with anecdotal evidence of a 'good job', the phrase, 'dammed with faint praise', fits.

There actually is some scientific evidence .....which if presented....would provide insights for breeding any puppies in a welfare model.

Edited February 14, 2010 by mita

[poodlefan]

Why not have a "companion dog" club attached to the breed club? Let anyone with that breed dog join and have activities and fundraisers. Engage the pet owners of the breed. And even if they got their dog from a pet shop you might well find they'll get their next dog of that breed from a registered breeder.

The ANKC allows owners of unregistered purebred dogs (and crossbred dogs) to join their affiliate companion dog training clubs, register their dogs as Associates and compete in their obedience and agility events for ANKC recognised titles. Perhaps you can do that.

If what you are looking for is a social club then you need to network with other pet dog owners of your breed. That can be done through either a dog training club or a breed club.

Some breed clubs have social days. Plenty more use their specialties as get togethers. But if you are not a member of the club, don't expect those who work their arses off to cater to your needs. Participation in club activity is what will allow you to influence the club's direction. Those active in club activities are usually pretty busy people.

I can see PF is in an argumentative mood today - but when isn't she?

Please accept my apologies for arguing passionately in support of purebred registered dogs on forum specifically set up for their promotion.

I may be "argumentative" Kismetkat but I don't ever get personal. I suggest you would be wise to adopt a similar level of self restraint rather quickly.

What I fail to understand is why you expect a bunch of registered purebred dog people to cater for your need for a social outlet?

Edited February 14, 2010 by poodlefan

[WoofnHoof]

I just popped into the AMSCQ website and discovered that they now offer shirts for an extra $5 on top of membership - I am soooo there this year

And if you attend any meetings, bear in mind that the facilities you use are paid for by the Canine Control - who raise their funds through shows, trials and litter registrations. You're benefitting from the efforts of registered purebred dog breeders and buyers, just by being on the grounds.

Where are all the facilities provided for dog owners by puppy farmers and pet stores?

Last thing I went to with them was a walk through the public park, I think they use the obedience grounds for most of the social events, they use the CCCQ grounds for weightpull events it looks like. I never go to meetings for any of the clubs I'm in they always want to rope me into some kind of secretarial job which I am notoriously crap at, I was minutes secretary at the pony club many years ago and lost the minutes book in the first month

Not sure what you mean with the reference to puppy farmers and pet stores? No one here is supporting them or advocating them it's just that a lot of people have dogs from there does that mean they should feel excluded from breed clubs? Membership money accepted but nothing provided for them simply because they didn't realise that without pedigree papers they are just scum feeding off the good work of others? If my membership money goes towards the hire of those grounds does that mean that the CCCQ are profiting from the owner of a pet shop dog? If the CCCQ runs a canteen on the grounds (not sure if they do I haven't been) should they sort the profits made into piles representing pedigree and non-pedigree dog owners?

[KismetKat]

No pistols drawn, KK. It's all about content.

Their position re registered purebred dog breeding is actually a key point.

Because the title of their seminar was about 'building' better pet dogs.

Registered breeders of purebreds, breed & raise pet dogs. And an alternative model of breeding pets was being presented.

If, at best, purebred breeding was dismissed with anecdotal evidence of a 'good job', the phrase, 'dammed with faint praise', fits.

There actually is some scientific evidence .....which if presented....would provide insights for breeding any puppies in a welfare model.

I think the title was just "building better dogs". I think 3 of the 4 keynote speakers all owned purebred dogs. And certainly some of the student presenters also owned purebred dogs.

[poodlefan]

Not sure what you mean with the reference to puppy farmers and pet stores? No one here is supporting them or advocating them it's just that a lot of people have dogs from there does that mean they should feel excluded from breed clubs? Membership money accepted but nothing provided for them simply because they didn't realise that without pedigree papers they are just scum feeding off the good work of others? If my membership money goes towards the hire of those grounds does that mean that the CCCQ are profiting from the owner of a pet shop dog? If the CCCQ runs a canteen on the grounds (not sure if they do I haven't been) should they sort the profits made into piles representing pedigree and non-pedigree dog owners?

I don't think you can have any real understanding for how angry and disgusted most ANKC registered dog breeders and owners are by commercially motivated dog breeding practices. I view anyone who buys from such sources as supporting them, whether or not that was their intention.

If you want to be accepted into the fold, start with the affiliated dog training clubs and make your next dog one with a pedigree.

[WoofnHoof]

Not sure what you mean with the reference to puppy farmers and pet stores? No one here is supporting them or advocating them it's just that a lot of people have dogs from there does that mean they should feel excluded from breed clubs? Membership money accepted but nothing provided for them simply because they didn't realise that without pedigree papers they are just scum feeding off the good work of others? If my membership money goes towards the hire of those grounds does that mean that the CCCQ are profiting from the owner of a pet shop dog? If the CCCQ runs a canteen on the grounds (not sure if they do I haven't been) should they sort the profits made into piles representing pedigree and non-pedigree dog owners?

I don't think you can have any real understanding for how angry and disgusted most ANKC registered dog breeders and owners are by commercially motivated dog breeding practices. I view anyone who buys from such sources as supporting them, whether or not that was their intention.

If you want to be accepted into the fold, start with the affiliated dog training clubs and make your next dog one with a pedigree.

The clubs will be waiting a while for my money then I can't get another dog till these ones expire which hopefully wont be for about 10 years (sibe is 3 chi is 6). I haven't got an interest in formal agility or obedience with my current dogs I'm just taking my sibe to a local private trainer. Guess I wont be learning much about the breeds and breed clubs for several years yet

[poodlefan]

Not sure what you mean with the reference to puppy farmers and pet stores? No one here is supporting them or advocating them it's just that a lot of people have dogs from there does that mean they should feel excluded from breed clubs? Membership money accepted but nothing provided for them simply because they didn't realise that without pedigree papers they are just scum feeding off the good work of others? If my membership money goes towards the hire of those grounds does that mean that the CCCQ are profiting from the owner of a pet shop dog? If the CCCQ runs a canteen on the grounds (not sure if they do I haven't been) should they sort the profits made into piles representing pedigree and non-pedigree dog owners?

I don't think you can have any real understanding for how angry and disgusted most ANKC registered dog breeders and owners are by commercially motivated dog breeding practices. I view anyone who buys from such sources as supporting them, whether or not that was their intention.

If you want to be accepted into the fold, start with the affiliated dog training clubs and make your next dog one with a pedigree.

The clubs will be waiting a while for my money then I can't get another dog till these ones expire which hopefully wont be for about 10 years (sibe is 3 chi is 6). I haven't got an interest in formal agility or obedience with my current dogs I'm just taking my sibe to a local private trainer. Guess I wont be learning much about the breeds and breed clubs for several years yet

You can learn plenty about breeds without joining a breed club. Try breed specific chat lists and forums - there are heaps of those.