'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[Diva]

pf.

KK, you'll find the Australian breed standards on the ANKC website - e.g here's the link for the Airedale standard Airedale Terrier.

Tassie - I've been trying to access the aussie breed standards but obviously their servers aren't coping with current demand, I just get a white error page.

I just checked a dozen standards without a hitch :D Maybe if you can't access them wait until you can instead of making false assertions regarding them?

I think there are issues which can arise from too much of a focus on show ring success, especially if judges favour the flashy dog over the more breed typical, or breeders get blinded by ribbons and point scores.

But to suggest that breeders get together to work out what temperament traits they want in a breed just smacks of such an ignorance of documented breed history, of such a 'lets reinvent the wheel as if we discovered the issue' mentality, it's actually a bit breathtaking.

[Lhok]

Most of the huskies I have seen dumped at the local RSPCA were because the owner wanted something that looked like a wolf but didn't like the howling and the shedding. Of the 10 that were dumped while I was there only 2 were dumped because the owner had difficulties with training them.

I think another important issue that some people overlook is that some potential owners choose their dogs on looks rather then temp, so what is the suggested course of preventing that?

--Lhok

Edited February 11, 2010 by Lhok

[poodlefan]

WnH:

AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

And of course genetically we know what traits are linked do we? So while we select for less sniffy beagles, we won't worry about that all important breed temperament that is linked to their original purpose.

Shall we make gundogs less mouthy because they carry stuff around and chew stuff as youngsters... and bugger up the high bite inhibition that gives them those gentle mouths while we're at it?

The problem does not lie with dog breeds but with people who don't do their homework or who fail to meet a breed's needs. The person advocating less sniffy beagles has bred some of the worst temperaments on dogs I've seen at my club. Best she clean up her own breeding practices before suggesting that purebred dog fanciers dumb their dogs down so that anyone can handle one.

[huski]

Most of the huskies I have seen dumped at the local RSPCA were because the owner wanted something that looked like a wolf but didn't like the howling and the shedding. Of the 10 that were dumped while I was there only 2 were dumped because the owner had difficulties with training them.

I think another important issue that some people overlook is that some potential owners choose their dogs on looks rather then temp, so what is the suggested course of preventing that?

--Lhok

Let's make them uglier so that people wouldn't be so inclined to buy them because they are so beautiful

/sarcasm

Edited February 11, 2010 by huski

[centitout]

The problem with higher drive breeds ending up in the pounds is because todays society is lazy-they want the instant cheap fix with no work involved.

As others suggest-get a breed of dog suitable in the first place,or get a stuffed toy instead if everything is too hard/irritating whatever,or get a cat or something.

Buyer education-i have turned away so many people because they think bloodhounds are lazy dogs that will lay on the porch all day ,dont need constant training,dont need 2 meals a day etc.Most of the "purebred" (and i use that term with a sarcastic tone) dogs in pounds are NOT bred by responsible registered breeders,so why do we have to bugger up our breeds for idiots.

[KismetKat]

The beagles in the pounds wouldn't be there had they been bred by responsible breeders, who ensured that they screened their puppy buyers properly and took back any dog they bred should it need rehoming.

Firstly to Tas - I can access the direct link. However earlier I was trying to access breed standards via the VicDogs website and even now come up with file not found errors (and also if I go via the ANKC homepage). Buggered if I know why.

And I did click on a breed standard and found this "The Afghan Hound should be dignified and aloof with a certain keen fierceness. " What on EARTH is a "keen fierceness"? Afghans are lovely dogs and from the ones I've met the word "fierce" just does not enter into it.

The beagles in the pounds wouldn't be there had they been bred by responsible breeders, who ensured that they screened their puppy buyers properly and took back any dog they bred should it need rehoming.

Which is the code of ethics suggested by Kate. While she was probably the most controversial speaker of the day, one of her main points is that breeders should have a lifetime responsibility of the dogs they breed and ensure the owner is educated about the breed (or cross). In the question time at the end, when queried about pet shops selling pups, she went on to say that as pet shops where the ones making the profit, then the pet shops should take on the 'responsibility' of this lifetime guarantee.

Then seriously, if people can't even cope with normal dog behaviour they should just get a fricken stuffed toy.

That point was also made (tho I think they said goldfish rather than stuffed toys). But the point was made that in modern urban life people don't want a dog that barks when anyone comes within 200 metres of the property when properties are 50m or less apart. Times and living conditions of humans have changed - as humans adjust must dogs. That being said, it was made plain that many expectations of dogs these days are really beyond the pale. Dogs are dogs. But unfortunately for dogs to continue to thrive in modern environments there are increasing pressures for them to conform (often by legislation) to behave a certain way.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Most of the huskies I have seen dumped at the local RSPCA were because the owner wanted something that looked like a wolf but didn't like the howling and the shedding. Of the 10 that were dumped while I was there only 2 were dumped because the owner had difficulties with training them.

I think another important issue that some people overlook is that some potential owners choose their dogs on looks rather then temp, so what is the suggested course of preventing that?

--Lhok

Let's make them uglier so that people wouldn't be so inclined to buy them because they are so beautiful

/sarcasm

Well, Eurodog will be pretty plain I think, so maybe that is what they are aiming for.

[poodlefan]

KK:

Afghans are lovely dogs and from the ones I've met the word "fierce" just does not enter into it

Show one prey and you'll rapidly understand what that means

While she was probably the most controversial speaker of the day, one of her main points is that breeders should have a lifetime responsibility of the dogs they breed

Oh, that's just priceless.

Edited February 11, 2010 by poodlefan

[Are You Serious Jo]

Also, anyone who doesn't research a breed and find out exactly what that means shouldn't have a dog.

[gareth]

But the point was made that in modern urban life people don't want a dog that barks when anyone comes within 200 metres of the property when properties are 50m or less apart.

Gee, don't they understand that won't change while people continue to leave dogs unattended and unexercised in back yard all day. Oh, but let's breed the bark out the dog so WE can be happy, who cares about the dog!

[KismetKat]

KK:

Afghans are lovely dogs and from the ones I've met the word "fierce" just does not enter into it

Show one prey and you'll rapidly understand what that means

I've watched my sister's dogs chase lures - she actually owned the Oz champion back in the 70s. I also saw the dogs that ran too slow and lost sight of the lure. They would stop and scratch, stop and have a snooze, stop and decide the middle of the track looked interesting...

Even with the ones still chasing the lure I don't think "fierce" is the right word.

[Sheridan]

The beagles in the pounds wouldn't be there had they been bred by responsible breeders, who ensured that they screened their puppy buyers properly and took back any dog they bred should it need rehoming.

Which is the code of ethics suggested by Kate. While she was probably the most controversial speaker of the day, one of her main points is that breeders should have a lifetime responsibility of the dogs they breed and ensure the owner is educated about the breed (or cross). In the question time at the end, when queried about pet shops selling pups, she went on to say that as pet shops where the ones making the profit, then the pet shops should take on the 'responsibility' of this lifetime guarantee.

Good grief.

Is she really that ignorant?

[poodlefan]

I've watched my sister's dogs chase lures - she actually owned the Oz champion back in the 70s. I also saw the dogs that ran too slow and lost sight of the lure. They would stop and scratch, stop and have a snooze, stop and decide the middle of the track looked interesting...

No doubt those are the ones Kate Schofeld would say we should breed from

Prey drive is sooooo inconvenient in a dog. :D

[Diva]

But the point was made that in modern urban life people don't want a dog that barks when anyone comes within 200 metres of the property when properties are 50m or less apart.

And if they met their dogs exercise, training and social needs they wouldn't have that.

Sure, some individuals in some breeds aren't well suited to suburban life - and all breeds and individuals should be homed with an eye to the best match. But if an owner can't see beyond the cute puppy to the real essence of the breed they are buying that is not a fault of breed diversity.

Breeds are part of our cultural heritage. How superficial it is to think we should just throw that away so someone can have a dog that looks like a Beagle or a Husky but acts like a stuffed toy.

[KismetKat]

But the point was made that in modern urban life people don't want a dog that barks when anyone comes within 200 metres of the property when properties are 50m or less apart.

Gee, don't they understand that won't change while people continue to leave dogs unattended and unexercised in back yard all day. Oh, but let's breed the bark out the dog so WE can be happy, who cares about the dog!

So don't sell your pups to people who work all day.

There was mention of how "flexible' dogs are which has made them such a successful species. It was stated that many dogs DO cope with working owners as they have that 'flexibility'. That being said, it was also stated that owners DO need to get their dogs out for daily walks etc or there will be problems. Education (and responsibility) of owners was in no ways overlooked by the speakers. The speakers were actually quite disparaging of some modern owner predilictions that basically amounted to dog owners not liking normal dog behaviour. However it was argued that dogs that naturally cope with modern living (no village to roam and people to be with 24/7) without exhibiting unwanted behaviours (incessent barking, etc.) can be a selection tool. Thus getting back to not desexing dogs routinely before 6 months as, an an adult dog, they might, without impinging on the conformation standard, prove to be 'good' dogs to keep in the gene pool.

[poodlefan]

There was mention of how "flexible' dogs are which has made them such a successful species. It was stated that many dogs DO cope with working owners as they have that 'flexibility'. That being said, it was also stated that owners DO need to get their dogs out for daily walks etc or there will be problems. Education (and responsibility) of owners was in no ways overlooked by the speakers. The speakers were actually quite disparaging of some modern owner predilictions that basically amounted to dog owners not liking normal dog behaviour. However it was argued that dogs that naturally cope with modern living (no village to roam and people to be with 24/7) without exhibiting unwanted behaviours (incessent barking, etc.) can be a selection tool. Thus getting back to not desexing dogs routinely before 6 months as, an an adult dog, they might, without impinging on the conformation standard, prove to be 'good' dogs to keep in the gene pool.

Did Kate tell everyone she desexes her pups at 6 weeks?

[gareth]

So don't sell your pups to people who work all day.

Wrong. Sell your dogs to people who understand their needs and provide them.

[WoofnHoof]

AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

There are lines of beags out there that have more scent drive than others, just as you get with many breeds.

If the average owner can't cope with a scent hound they shouldn't buy one. Surely that is an easier message to work on getting across than trying to change a breed which has been around for hundreds of years?

Breeding out scent drive in a scent hound is buggering up the breed - I'm not interested in owning a generic dog thanks.

Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases :D

The answer is making breeders accountable for the dogs they breed, we shouldn't ruin a breed purely because we want to make it easier for a larger group of people to own them. What a message to send out to potential dog owners - stuff responsible ownership, we'll just breed one you can leave in the backyard and forget about

I am seriously blown away that anyone would think drastically changing our breeds is a good alternative to encouraging people to do their research and be responsible dog owners :D

ETA: I must be the only Sibe owner who finds my dog a pleasure and quite easy to live with

There are a lot of sibes that are escape artists regardless of how much interaction they get, how would toning that down ruin the whole breed? Of course those of us who still have sibes haven't found them that much of a problem but there are lots of sibes in pounds and anything that reduces that situation is a good thing IMO. Very easy to say that heaps of people shouldn't own them but who should and what do you do with all the excess sibes bred with no homes to go to? Should breeders breed just enough to keep the breed going and fill a few select orders and euth the rest?

Personally, living alone and having a few things on the go it can be difficult to keep up with the sheer amount of exercise and stimulation my boy needs to have to keep him occupied, it wouldn't hurt to have a dog who could cope with a few days off without trashing the house out of boredom. It's not like he doesn't get a lot of interaction, it's just that some days it's not enough for him. Just because I can deal with the consequences of a few days of boredom doesn't mean it's the ideal situation for a breed which is largely unchanged since it's sledding days.

Honestly there have been a lot of drastic and fundamental changes to breeds over the years, I understand that it's difficult to contemplate changes that may impact on the essence of the breed but it's been done in the past and if it's in the best interests of dogs then it deserves serious consideration not just dismissing out of fear of the 'generic dog'.

[KismetKat]

I've watched my sister's dogs chase lures - she actually owned the Oz champion back in the 70s. I also saw the dogs that ran too slow and lost sight of the lure. They would stop and scratch, stop and have a snooze, stop and decide the middle of the track looked interesting...

No doubt those are the ones Kate Schofeld would say we should breed from

Prey drive is sooooo inconvenient in a dog. :D

Hmm, well her dog that was the champ was a desexed pet. Her confirmation champ dogs were alsorans in the racing stakes. One even took to snoozing in the start box and only ever had a hope of placing in long distance runs - enter her in a sprint and she was till snoozing in the start box while the others wre finishing! :D

But getting back to her champ racer - it reminds me of the speakers' "we desex too early" argument. If an Afghans prime thing is to run, there was one bloody good dog that was no longer in the gene pool.

[Jed]

I think another important issue that some people overlook is that some potential owners choose their dogs on looks rather then temp, so what is the suggested course of preventing that?

Breeder should ascertain that the buyer is aware of, and understands the breed pre purchase. I believe that 90% of purebred dogs in the pound were not bred by registered breeders, who generally take more care in the selection of homes. If you are a breeder with 6 pups which you bred, whelped, and raised, you have more motivation to find them the "right" lifetime home, then if you are air freighting to people who paid by credit card, and all they asked was "how much", or if you are a 17 year old working in a pet shop with sales targets to achieve.

Kismet Kat - we had this discussion in the protection thread. Show an Afghan a gazelle (or a rabbit on the run) and he'll show you "fierce", I'll bet. Show a boxer a burglar, and he'll show you "guard"

I don't believe the majority of people want endogenous dogs - they all want some of the traits which they are buying breed A or B for. Good owners will discount the things which may be problematic about a breed because they want the benefits they see in that breed.

There are people who do want a dog who don't wee, mess, bark or dig. I don't think they would be happy with Eurodog either.

QUOTE (KismetKat @ 11th Feb 2010 - 10:02 PM)

But the point was made that in modern urban life people don't want a dog that barks when anyone comes within 200 metres of the property when properties are 50m or less apart.

Gee, don't they understand that won't change while people continue to leave dogs unattended and unexercised in back yard all day. Oh, but let's breed the bark out the dog so WE can be happy, who cares about the dog!

Exactly, and they are the people who will probably dump any dog they buy.

There are breeds who bark less than others, quite a few, and people can get one of them - but the answer is training, companionship and socialisation. If people did those things, barking would not be a problem with the majority of dogs, from the majority of breeds.

I wouldn't want to breed Eurodog so that people could neglect him. Not that I would want to breed Eurodog at all. It's flawed science at it's worst.