'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[WreckitWhippet]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds. You can say to prospective owners if you can't handle it don't get that breed but where does it leave the breed in the end? How many 'ideal' beagle owners exist? How relevant is the scenting instinct to most pets? Some working breeds can adapt to being easy going pets but many breeds with strong working instincts are going to prove challenging for a lot of owners and the pound stats suggest that most owners aren't that committed.

I love the husky breed, I love their independence and I love the fact that they are challenging but I know that many many people are not suited to owning huskies, I doubt I'd be able to cope with more than one. Even Dr Harry says 'you have to be a special person to own a siberian husky' so how many people are 'special' (or should that be thpeshal? lol) enough to own a husky and is that enough to keep the breed alive?

I think what breed fanciers will have to decide is whether it is worth compromising on the historical signficance of certain traits, in order to keep the breed going in the future. There is no need to 'create' a generic dog as they all have different qualities but IMO some of the working breeds who are mostly going to be pets couldn't hurt to be bred towards a slightly less 'challenging' temperament.

The SBT for example is a bold , fearless and totally reliable dog. He stands his ground when challenged, he's rock solid and he doesn't back down. He's highly driven, he's into everything and he faithfully does it at his masters side.

Many SBT's are challenging to own, they are not suitable for everyone but that doesn't make a toned down one any more desirable.

Start to mess with that or inadvertently breed an SBT that does not display those traits and you are dealing with ticking bombs. The skittish, nervous SBT is one to be feared.

[Tassie]

pf.

KK, you'll find the Australian breed standards on the ANKC website - e.g here's the link for the Airedale standard Airedale Terrier.

[Diva]

No-one suggested that breeds be 'watered down' or be a 'one size fits all generic dog'. I think the point is that many breed standards do not specify behaviour/traits of dog breed. They are saying that diversity of dogs is good, but when it comes to behaviour/temp thenbreeders should agree what the dog should be like in regards to behaviour/temp and select for those things as well as looks.

That's just rot for the ANKC standards, I hope the rest of the points made were better informed than that!

[poodlefan]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS.

What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character.

If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one.

Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to.

The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed.

[KismetKat]

The SBT for example is a bold , fearless and totally reliable dog. He stands his ground when challenged, he's rock solid and he doesn't back down. He's highly driven, he's into everything and he faithfully does it at his masters side.

Many SBT's are challenging to own, they are not suitable for everyone but that doesn't make a toned down one any more desirable.

Start to mess with that or inadvertently breed an SBT that does not display those traits and you are dealing with ticking bombs. The skittish, nervous SBT is one to be feared.

There was a reference to staffies that did draw a big laugh from just about everyone on the room (and keep in mind it was full of vested-interest dog breeders for the main part).

The speaker was talking about behaviour/traits for the showring. How you don't want a dog that will bite a judge as this will be a disqualification. Showrings are busy places so the dog must cope with this. How, by breeding for show, you may end up selecting behaviour traits that are an advantage in the showring.

Now here I forget the exact term used, but I think it was 'show presence' - the speaker then went on to quip that "staffies have so much show presence they now show them further apart".

This was the line that drew a big laugh.

But, any jokes aside, how much 'you and who's army' attitude should staffies have? When is too much too much?

[WreckitWhippet]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS.

What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character.

If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one.

Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to.

The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed.

You hit the nail on the head and that applies to every breed, not just the Beagle.

[KismetKat]

pf.

KK, you'll find the Australian breed standards on the ANKC website - e.g here's the link for the Airedale standard Airedale Terrier.

Tassie - I've been trying to access the aussie breed standards but obviously their servers aren't coping with current demand, I just get a white error page.

However you also have to keep in mind that when behaviour traits are expressed, how definite is the definition and how open to interpretation. I mean, if a dog is described as "lively" what does that mean? Are we talking the energiser bunny here?

[WreckitWhippet]

The SBT for example is a bold , fearless and totally reliable dog. He stands his ground when challenged, he's rock solid and he doesn't back down. He's highly driven, he's into everything and he faithfully does it at his masters side.

Many SBT's are challenging to own, they are not suitable for everyone but that doesn't make a toned down one any more desirable.

Start to mess with that or inadvertently breed an SBT that does not display those traits and you are dealing with ticking bombs. The skittish, nervous SBT is one to be feared.

There was a reference to staffies that did draw a big laugh from just about everyone on the room (and keep in mind it was full of vested-interest dog breeders for the main part).

The speaker was talking about behaviour/traits for the showring. How you don't want a dog that will bite a judge as this will be a disqualification. Showrings are busy places so the dog must cope with this. How, by breeding for show, you may end up selecting behaviour traits that are an advantage in the showring.

Now here I forget the exact term used, but I think it was 'show presence' - the speaker then went on to quip that "staffies have so much show presence they now show them further apart".

This was the line that drew a big laugh.

But, any jokes aside, how much 'you and who's army' attitude should staffies have? When is too much too much?

We don't show them miles apart. Even at Specialty level with 30 dogs or bitches in the ring at any one time, there is minimal space between exhibits.

Every now and then a dog or bitch will be a bit cocky, but I can safely say that we can get through two hundred plus dogs in a day without incident.

I think it's best that people don't talk about, make reference to or joke about, something they know nothing about.

[huski]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS.

What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character.

If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one.

Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to.

The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed.

Totally agree PF.

The beagles in the pounds wouldn't be there had they been bred by responsible breeders, who ensured that they screened their puppy buyers properly and took back any dog they bred should it need rehoming.

They have been a pretty popular breed for a long time, especially in the US, and thrive in pet homes all over the world, so obviously their desire to scent still allows them to make excellent and popular pets for many people.

[poodlefan]

pf.

KK, you'll find the Australian breed standards on the ANKC website - e.g here's the link for the Airedale standard Airedale Terrier.

Tassie - I've been trying to access the aussie breed standards but obviously their servers aren't coping with current demand, I just get a white error page.

Try this link

[WreckitWhippet]

pf.

KK, you'll find the Australian breed standards on the ANKC website - e.g here's the link for the Airedale standard Airedale Terrier.

Tassie - I've been trying to access the aussie breed standards but obviously their servers aren't coping with current demand, I just get a white error page.

However you also have to keep in mind that when behaviour traits are expressed, how definite is the definition and how open to interpretation. I mean, if a dog is described as "lively" what does that mean? Are we talking the energiser bunny here?

Dear lord, we really do need to create "breed standards for dummies" handbooks.

There's also "breed standard extensions" (BSE's) that go on to further explain the points in the standard.

[Tassie]

[

Tassie - I've been trying to access the aussie breed standards but obviously their servers aren't coping with current demand, I just get a white error page.

Hmmm - don't know why that is - I had no trouble getting in - just before I posted - and just checked now - still fine. Go to www.ankc.org.au, then pull down the breeds menu, and you;ll see the seven groups - click on a group and you'll get the list of breeds in that group.

And yes, of course there is an element of interpretation, but it gives a pretty good idea. Have a look at the Beagle, for instance.

[Sheridan]

What is their definition of a good dog though?

Varies from breed to breed but basically you don't want a dog that is fearful or bites people (or other dogs) or is generally a pain in the arse (this is my VERY loose interpretation, PLS wait for the full video). The point was made that dogs need to be flexible to cope with modern living - and many dogs DO do this very well. However how well a dog copes and adjusts is really not apparent until the dog is an adult.

Basically they were saying it is as important to select for temperment than it is for looks. They suggested that breed associations should get together and list what traits they think desirable for that breed and select for those as well as looks. They said that, genetically, selecting for a single conformation aspect can lead to unthoughtof consequences on other things (which can be problems) appearing in the breed. They said if you are breeding PURELY for show, you should not be in the business of selling pets. They said breeding for extremes in a breed causes problems.

Basically they were saying that breeders should look to how the dogs behave as well as how they look when selecting parent dogs.

Obviously, none of them have read the breed standards.

[WoofnHoof]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS.

What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character.

If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one.

Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to.

The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed.

AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases

[Are You Serious Jo]

They even made the point that many aspects of dogs just being dogs are now considered 'problems' (eg. barking).

Then seriously, if people can't even cope with normal dog behaviour they should just get a fricken stuffed toy. What is wrong with putting more time into educating people about choosing a suitable breed, rather than creating a generic dog. If you remove all the differences between breeds in terms of temperament to create a robotic dog that does nothing wrong, then how is this different to destroying breeds? I'll never own a JRT because I don't like their temperament, but some love that. You take the terrier out of a JRT and it isn't a JRT.

For some breeds you may as well wipe them out if you are going to remove their characteristic temperament, same thing.

[centitout]

I like my hounds exactly the way they are-i do not want to see watered down,no/low drive layabouts.They suit me,my personality,my family.If you dont want something big,drooly and wrinkly that likes to sniff,get another breed.Whatever happened to common sense .A big part of my breeding focuses on temperament and drive,pups that are that little bit higher drive go to the people that want an active,lively dog.I tell them to train it in basic trailing so they can have fun,keeps the dog stimulated etc.That is where a decent breeder will match the personality of the dog to the potential owner first.

I had one owner that specifically requested the naughtiest girl i had,and i am comfortable they can train her and keep her stimulated.That same dog with one of the other owners may become a real handful.

Public-choose your dogs APPROPRIATELY and take responsibility for what you choose instead of dumping all responsibility onto breeders to make their breeds suitable for people that want the easy fix all the time.

[centitout]

It may end up being about breed survival in the end, after all if you breed every beagle to have a high scent drive according to the original purpose of the breed (which is pretty much 99% redundant) and that is what makes them so challenging and ultimately what lands them in pounds.

It's also what makes them the breed of choice for AQIS.

What makes the Beagle an attractive breed for many people is the affability deliberately bred into a dog kept and hunted in a pack. It's the fact that he IS a scent hound that give him his character.

If you don't want a scenthound then don't buy one. You don't need to stuff up a breed just so any idiot can own one.

Beagles are trainable. The simple fact of the matter is the many owners with "problem" beagles don't bother to.

The issues with many dogs are owner created. Start by changing the owner's behaviour, not buggering up the breed.

Maybe these slightly more higher drive breeds end up in the pound is because todays society is an extremely lazy one that wants an instant ,cheap fix to everything?

AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases

[gareth]

Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases

What? How about the average dog buyers choose a breed they can manage in the first place? Why change the breeds because idiots don't do their research?

[huski]

AQIS is a tiny market if they want high scent drive maybe they can have their own lines? Lowering scent drive wouldn't exactly 'bugger up the breed', since there are many many traits which make a beagle a beagle the scent drive is only one part but it's a part which can make it more difficult for the average owner.

There are lines of beags out there that have more scent drive than others, just as you get with many breeds.

If the average owner can't cope with a scent hound they shouldn't buy one. Surely that is an easier message to work on getting across than trying to change a breed which has been around for hundreds of years?

Breeding out scent drive in a scent hound is buggering up the breed - I'm not interested in owning a generic dog thanks.

Huskies are trainable too but that doesn't mean they magically morph into 'easier' dogs when you put a bit of training into them. Since they land in the pounds quite frequently, then for their sake I'd rather the breed was 'tweaked' since that is a far more realistic solution than the one in which humans suddenly start to be accountable and research their purchases :D

The answer is making breeders accountable for the dogs they breed, we shouldn't ruin a breed purely because we want to make it easier for a larger group of people to own them. What a message to send out to potential dog owners - stuff responsible ownership, we'll just breed one you can leave in the backyard and forget about

I am seriously blown away that anyone would think drastically changing our breeds is a good alternative to encouraging people to do their research and be responsible dog owners :D

ETA: I must be the only Sibe owner who finds my dog a pleasure and quite easy to live with

Edited February 11, 2010 by huski

[centitout]

Excuse the above the post-my reply didnt come up?????