'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[poodlefan]

Spikes:

I never said it would be easy

I don't mean suddenly increase to a dozen litters a year, I just mean breeders who usually only breed once every 3-4 years to keep a puppy for themselves maybe breeding a quality litter or two purely to go as pets (say, if you have a waiting list or 'return buyers' ) in between their "own" litter

Of course, Mother Nature is not always predictable but if you hit on a 'winning combination' of high quality, typey puppies form a particular pairing, is it so bad to try and replicate that for pet purposes?

Or breeders who breed their bitch once, then retire her and only breed again when that bitch's daughter is old enough for her own litter etc. Why not, if the quality and the demand for pets is there (responsible homes), breed another litter from the original bitch?

Of course if you don't breed for profit, you genuinely give a damn about the welfare of the bitch and pups and you sweat over giving the nod to each and every home you place pups in, your motivation for doing it unless when you want a retain a pup is a lot lower.

Add in the increasing restrictions breeders in urban areas face and its a tough ask.

Of course if you live in the sticks, out of range of neighbours and pesky RSPCA inspectors and treat your breeding dogs as means to an end, it's a lot easier.

[Miranda]

I would never breed a litter to sell off as pets, for me the incentive just isn't there. A lot of effort goes into producing and rearing a litter, it's hard work, stressful, time consuming and sometimes heartbreaking and I wouldn't be prepared to do it if I wasn't going to keep a puppy. It's the thought that there might be something special in the litter that makes me want to breed, mating a bitch and then selling the whole litter as family pets doesn't interest me at all, I can't see the point of it. My breed generally produces between 8 and 12 puppies and usually only a few have true showing/breeding potential so the rest are sold as pets on limited register anyway and believe me finding suitable homes for a large coated breed that needs lots of exercise and training isn't easy. I'm certainly not having a go at those breeders who get satisfaction out of breeding healthy puppies for the pet market, but it just wouldn't work for me.

[Rebanne]

(no, I don't want to do this myself FTR, and I have seen some dreadful results from 'pet only' matings, but this is because the person breeding them is motivated by greed and nothing else). Say you have one litter, you keep a pup to go on with but then repeat that (breed-standard successful) mating every second season or so (pending bitch health & condition, your time to socialise pups etc) a further 2 or 3 times, with no intention of selling anything other than pets to the many excellent homes out their wanting top notch examples of your breed?

as this would never happen with my chosen breed I think I can safely say I don't have a problem with this in theroy, but not sure what I would think if greyhound pups suddenly had masses of people wanting one. Question for me then would be, am I prepared to risk my pet bitches life to provide these people with a nice, quality pup? The bitch that sleeps on the pillow next to me every night. I am prepared to take the risk to get a pup, for me, to continue on with but for others, not so sure.

[KismetKat]

IMO there needs to be advertising campaigns giving examples of where to buy a happy, healthy pedigree puppy and maybe a checklist of what to look for when meeting a breeder.

The RSPCA has put out a pamphlet which does just this. I picked it up from the seminar. It was mentioned by at least one of the presenters.

[SpikesPuppy]

(no, I don't want to do this myself FTR, and I have seen some dreadful results from 'pet only' matings, but this is because the person breeding them is motivated by greed and nothing else). Say you have one litter, you keep a pup to go on with but then repeat that (breed-standard successful) mating every second season or so (pending bitch health & condition, your time to socialise pups etc) a further 2 or 3 times, with no intention of selling anything other than pets to the many excellent homes out their wanting top notch examples of your breed?

as this would never happen with my chosen breed I think I can safely say I don't have a problem with this in theroy, but not sure what I would think if greyhound pups suddenly had masses of people wanting one. Question for me then would be, am I prepared to risk my pet bitches life to provide these people with a nice, quality pup? The bitch that sleeps on the pillow next to me every night. I am prepared to take the risk to get a pup, for me, to continue on with but for others, not so sure.

This is something that I thought of too, and a major reason why I would be reluctant to do it personally (my girl is one up on yours though- she sleeps on my head :rolleyes: ), but I know not every ethical breeder is as emotionally attached to their breeding bitches (ie: some I have spoken to love all their dogs, and often have a couple of heart dogs but their brood bitches they seem to keep a bit of emotional distance from (not at all neglected), maybe because they know the risk to her? I dunno. I cry when my pet fish die!!!).

IF puppy farms & large scale breeders were put out of business by laws, what do people think would happen to dog ownership?

[Erny]

IF puppy farms & large scale breeders were put out of business by laws, what do people think would happen to dog ownership?

Actually, that's an interesting question. I have no idea of dog-owning number stats, but if it all came down to puppy supply via registered or ethical breeders, would could supply meet demand?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Erny

[shel]

Actually, that's an interesting question. I have no idea of dog-owning number stats, but if it all came down to puppy supply via registered or ethical breeders, would could supply meet demand?

Probably not.

Because, even though we love to hate unethical breeders, if you look at the figures, overwhelmingly, even their pups stay in their homes.

Testament to the robustness of the dog species.

For instance

79% of owners have never had their pet go missing for long enough to cause concern

and

Less than 5% of dogs and cats ever need the services of a pound or shelter.

...or....

There are 3,692,000 dogs in Australia.

An estimated what? 500,000 impounded nationally? AFAIK there aren't any real, national figures.

So, even that means, if I get my calculations right (bear with me, it's late)... just 14% of dogs are being handled by shelters.

Could we get that number down? Sure.

Do we have dog overpopulation? Doubtful.

Coz if there are 3.6 million dogs in Australia, if each die every 10 years; 10% will need replacing annually. That's 360,000 dog homes being becoming available each year, with people who lived with their dog safely until the age of ten. Not new people looking for their first dog, but established, proven pet homes.

I think I read somewhere that registered breeders, breed about 60,000? So we need 300,000 dogs from somewhere each year.

(Edited to add links)

Edited February 16, 2010 by shel

[WreckitWhippet]

IMO there needs to be advertising campaigns giving examples of where to buy a happy, healthy pedigree puppy and maybe a checklist of what to look for when meeting a breeder.

The RSPCA has put out a pamphlet which does just this. I picked it up from the seminar. It was mentioned by at least one of the presenters.

and what a load of misleading garbage that is.

[Aussieflicker]

IMO there needs to be advertising campaigns giving examples of where to buy a happy, healthy pedigree puppy and maybe a checklist of what to look for when meeting a breeder.

The RSPCA has put out a pamphlet which does just this. I picked it up from the seminar. It was mentioned by at least one of the presenters.

and what a load of misleading garbage that is.

Hi SBT123

Can you let us know why the pamphlet is a "load of misleading garbage"?

Thanks

[Lhok]

Nice to see the RSPCA asks people not to discriminate against crossbreds and mixed bred dogs but doesn't say anything about the purebred discrimination that is around due to that BBC show . = /

--Lhok

[Sheridan]

IMO there needs to be advertising campaigns giving examples of where to buy a happy, healthy pedigree puppy and maybe a checklist of what to look for when meeting a breeder.

The RSPCA has put out a pamphlet which does just this. I picked it up from the seminar. It was mentioned by at least one of the presenters.

and what a load of misleading garbage that is.

Hi SBT123

Can you let us know why the pamphlet is a "load of misleading garbage"?

Thanks

Well, for one thing, I didn't meet the breeder of my two wheatens until he delivered my second one to me from SA yet I have no doubt whatsover that he is one of the most ethical people, let alone breeder, that I have ever met. I wish to god that he was still breeding wheatens.

The RSPCA states in the pamphlet that tail docking is illegal so the breeder's views are irrelevant. Agreeing with tail docking does not equal actually docking tails now that it's illegal and the inference that it does by the RSPCA is in itself unethical.

That the pamphlet also takes a swipe at registered breeders is unethical. Note that the wording towards showing is far harsher than that towards puppyfarmers. And I don't believe that BYBs even get a mention, at least from what I recall, though I could be wrong.

The information is useful, particularly regards asking about inherited disorders, but a pamphlet like this should contain information rather than bias.

[poodlefan]

That RSPCA pamphlet is currently under revision. My CC has been asked to provide input on that process.

The fact that you can supply references of happy puppy buyers doesn't make you a responsible breeder. You might have sold to people oblivious to ethical breeding practices (I've heard the virtues of various puppy farmers extolled over the years) or you might just breed healthy dogs through dumb luck.

Edited February 16, 2010 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

The views on tail docking

They state as fact that they way to minimise the risk of inherited problems is to avoid close breedings.

They state a good breeder will put health and welfare above appearence

Stating that desexing can make your dog healthier and happier

Not to buy from a breeder who advertises on the net

[Sheridan]

They state as fact that they way to minimise the risk of inherited problems is to avoid close breedings.

Which can be true in some breeds.

They state a good breeder will put health and welfare above appearence[/b]

Look at it from the opposite: a bad breeder will put appearance above health and welfare.

The problem as I see it is that a lot of what the RSPCA states is are truisms. Usually the truth is a lot murkier.

[Jed]

While I was there, I found this crap

It's been said, with friends like these who needs enemies. Sadly it's an adage that rings all too true for some of our canine companions. Man's obsession with creating the "perfect" dog has led to an absurdly strong emphasis on appearance with more time being spent on refining the colour and quality of coats than on improving the health and welfare of the animal.

As a result we have created dogs that have difficulty breathing, difficulty walking and running, dogs that can't give birth naturally, dogs with chronic back, ear, skin and eye problems. Despite strong evidence against inbreeding, some breeders are still mating close relatives; fathers and daughters, mothers and sons, brothers and sisters. All the while decreasing the gene pool and increasing the incidence of inherited diseases.

Pedigree Dogs Exposed is a documentary produced in the UK and is based on some of the serious issues facing pedigree dogs in that country. The full extent of these problems in the Australian pedigree dog population is currently unknown, but there is no evidence to indicate that they are significantly different from those experienced overseas. Dog breeding in Australia is subject to the same breed standards and breeding practices as in the UK.

The RSPCA's concerns about pedigree dog breeding in Australia:

◦certain pedigree dogs are over-represented for specific inherited disorders

◦breed standards for pedigree dogs focus primarily on appearance rather than health, welfare, temperament and functionality

◦some breed standards are interpreted in an exaggerated and extreme form and this further compromises animal health and welfare

◦closed studbooks result in a lack of genetic diversity within pedigree dog breeds, increasing the chances of inherited disorders

◦some pedigree dog breeders deliberately mate close relatives, increasing the puppy's chance of inherited disorders and making them less resistant to infectious and genetic diseases

There are many reputable pedigree dog breeders who are working hard to address these problems but to overcome them there needs to be a fundamental change in way we breed dogs in Australia.

What a lot of bull. Taken directly from PDE - which even the maker had admitted was skewed.

And here's MORE crap and codswallop. Where's their evidence? That's right, they don't have any, because it's mosty crap

The way in which pedigree (purebred) dogs are selected for breeding is based primarily on appearance. In many breeds, this has resulted in exaggerated features or body shapes, some of which can seriously affect a dog's quality of life. In addition, most pedigree breeds have an increased rate of genetic or inherited disorders as a result of selective breeding or inbreeding, leading to welfare problems and the need for veterinary intervention.

And their proof is .....??

The full extent of the problems caused by pedigree dog breeding in Australia are currently unknown, but there is research underway to help to determine this and to reduce the prevalance of inherited disorders. This article expands on some of the known factors that contribute to problems in pedigree dog breeding.

The problems are currently unknown Where's the research? MDBA research shows the opposite of this

Breed standards

The ‘breed standard' is a set of guidelines which are used to ensure that an animal conforms to the specifics of a particular breed. These standards are used as the basis for selective breeding of pedigree animals and as the criteria for judgment in the show ring.

For most pedigree breeds adhering to the ‘breed standard’ is a condition of pedigree registration. Unfortunately some of these breed standards include physical and behavioural traits that may seriously compromise an animal’s quality of life. In addition, most breed standards tend to focus on appearance rather than health, welfare, fitness or temperament. Over time, many breed standards relating to appearance have become exaggerated, e.g. selecting for even shorter legs or a more flattened nose, which further compromises animal welfare.

The breed standards have been basically the same since the inception of the breeds. Temperament and health are also weighted in the standards. Only someone who has no understanding of pedigree dogs could have written this tripe. They have nothing to do with pedigree dogs, don't know anything about them, yet can write rubbish like this, which people do believe

Dog and cat shows are a major part of the pedigree companion animal scene. For pedigree animals, the breed standard is the only criteria by which dogs are judged, rather than their overall health, welfare, fitness and temperament. Thus the fact that a breeder shows their dogs is not necessarily an indication of their quality as a breeder or that they are a responsible breeder. ‘Best in show’ animals are often sought after to parent new litters thereby ensuring that their traits are passed onto new generations. Unfortunately some of these may be negative characteristics.

In some instances, conforming to the breed standard may also result in the euthanasia of otherwise healthy puppies or kittens that do not meet the standard, for example, where the coat colour of a puppy does not conform to the ‘allowable’ colours for the breed, or where required markings are not present.

Genetic diversity

Many pedigree breed organisations operate a closed studbook system. Closed studbooks mean that the organisation will only register dogs whose parents are registered as being members of that breed. This limits the genetic pool from which future breeding animals can be sourced. Over time this system tends to reduce the genetic diversity within a breed which can ultimately compromise the welfare and survival of a breed.

Mating close relatives

Some breeder mate closely related animals. This is genetically undesirable as it increases the chances of the offspring having an inherited disorder, may compromise immune system function and ultimately leads to infertility. Before purchasing a purebred dog, you should find out what inherited disorders occur in your chosen breed. An internet search for 'inherited diseases' and the breed name will help, or you can have a look at the List of Inherited Disorders website (LIDA) website.

Deliberately deceptive. Makes it sound as if unrelated dogs never have any hereditary issues.

If the ANKC had any bottle,they'd sue their asses off.

I'm too ticked off to go to the puppy buyers' page!!

[Steve]

Dog and cat shows are a major part of the pedigree companion animal scene. For pedigree animals, the breed standard is the only criteria by which dogs are judged, rather than their overall health, welfare, fitness and temperament.

There is no need to judge dogs at conformation shows for these things because breeders dont just select dogs because they have done well by the standard. We profile pedigrees,we screen, test and study a dog and its family before we decide on whether its a good candidate for breeding.

How it stacks up against those of its breed or how it conforms to the way it should look is just a small part of it.Expecting a dog show to judge on health, welfare, fitness and temperament is like asking a cardiologist to judge a beauty contest. Wonder how many times we have to say it?

[WreckitWhippet]

Dog and cat shows are a major part of the pedigree companion animal scene. For pedigree animals, the breed standard is the only criteria by which dogs are judged, rather than their overall health, welfare, fitness and temperament.

There is no need to judge dogs at conformation shows for these things because breeders dont just select dogs because they have done well by the standard. We profile pedigrees,we screen, test and study a dog and its family before we decide on whether its a good candidate for breeding.

How it stacks up against those of its breed or how it conforms to the way it should look is just a small part of it.Expecting a dog show to judge on health, welfare, fitness and temperament is like asking a cardiologist to judge a beauty contest. Wonder how many times we have to say it?

That needed to be bolded, made bigger and in red. It's a point that is missed over and again.

[poodlefan]

Dog and cat shows are a major part of the pedigree companion animal scene. For pedigree animals, the breed standard is the only criteria by which dogs are judged, rather than their overall health, welfare, fitness and temperament.

And clearly they've never read a breed standard in their lives - most specify desireable temperament.

Why is it such a sin to exhibit your dogs with pride? How does owning breeding dogs that rarely leave your suburb somehow guarantee good temperament?

Edited February 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[KismetKat]

I think I read somewhere that registered breeders, breed about 60,000? So we need 300,000 dogs from somewhere each year.

So we go back to not desexing our pets early, let them have a litter or two ("cos it's a great experience for the kids") then FTGH them where we can and give (and yes I said give) puppies we can't place to the petshops to sell cheaply?

That's how things used to work many years ago.

A puppy farm could not financially survive in such an environment.

[Christina]

Some breeder mate closely related animals. This is genetically undesirable as it increases the chances of the offspring having an inherited disorder, may compromise immune system function and ultimately leads to infertility.

Before purchasing a purebred dog, you should find out what inherited disorders occur in your chosen breed. An internet search for 'inherited diseases' and the breed name will help, or you can have a look at the List of Inherited Disorders website (LIDA) website.

Re above, cant do quote thingy.

Sound advice but

If they are buying a mongrel, oodle, noodle stupidoodle etc, from goodness knows where

How can they check any of this out ?

It is only by going to a reputable registered breeder, getting a pedigree & asking to see the results of tests needed for the breed that they can check these out.

Does the RSPCA offer a genetic guarantee on all the puppies that come from them ?

Maybe they have secret tests we don't know about