'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010

[Are You Serious Jo]

Kismet kat actually, not you. I don't agree with your stance, but haven't seen you promote crossbreeding.

[huski]

My sibe came from a byb but he's every inch a sibe, when I did start reading up on sibes it was like they were talking about my dog personally I never said the problem is the dogs, I'm saying it's a combination of less work for working dogs and a different environment they have to live in than the one they were bred for. It would take a longer time to filter through but don't you think that if someone less prepared for the extreme aspects of sibe characteristcs were to buy a sibe it would be better to offer them one which was not so challenging?

How about educating them on choosing a breed that does suit their lifestyle instead?

Like I said before, I love my sibe and I have never regretted getting him, I may get another down the track but just because I love my boy doesn't mean I think their traits are 100% suitable for modern life and the majority of the homes they find themselves in. It's not like the dogs themselves really care how well they represent the breed standard, only humans care about that.

So Sibes aren't suited to the majority of people who own them?

What were they bred to do huski? They were bred to pull sleds in the arctic, they were bred to go for hundreds of kilometers, they were bred to be self-sufficient. None of these traits are relevant today, lowering drive does not equal eliminating drive completely. You don't need to reinvent the wheel you just select for dogs with slightly more easy going temperaments.

Right and you have to be fooling yourself if you think that hasn't impacted on and shaped the dog we have today.

That's the thing, I like sibes, I don't want any other spitz. I don't know how many pups in a litter of traditionally bred sibes would be 'less full on' I guess that is what I am saying, it might be more useful to encourage breeding to favour the less full on type which may be less likely to end up in pounds?

You can't like the breed that much if you want to completely change them so that they are easier for you to own.

I know many Sibe owners who love the breed the way it is, and wouldn't want to see them changed, why should we change the dogs who are in homes that suit them and enjoy them the way they are?

As another poster has mentioned - howling and shedding are big reasons why some Sibes are turned into rescue. Should we get rid of their double coat and ability to howl while we're at it too? That would make them easier to live with, wouldn't it?

Edited February 11, 2010 by huski

[SpikesPuppy]

Haven't read everything yet (only on page 20) but with regard to breed standards, IMO the Border Terrier temperament is one that needs a serious change:

Characteristics: Capable of following a horse, combining activity with gameness.

Temperament: Active and game as previously stated.

What the F*** does the above mean?? It says NOTHING about the fact that they MUST get along with other dogs, that they are allowed to appear dour or bored in the show ring etc etc. In fact, if you chose the Border Terrier based on the breed standard, you would be in for a shock. Even long term Border people feel the temperament description is sorely lacking for the breed In fact many argue that the use of the term 'game' is incorrect.

The breed standard is not and should not be the be-all and end-all of breeding dogs IMHO.

(And no, we don't have a BSE).

[WreckitWhippet]

WnH:

It would take a longer time to filter through but don't you think that if someone less prepared for the extreme aspects of sibe characteristcs were to buy a sibe it would be better to offer them one which was not so challenging?

There are already less challenging Spitz breeds around. If you don't want to deal with Sibe personality, buy an Elkhound or a Lapphund.

Or go to a breeder that knows their dogs backwards and ask them to select you a less full on pup. Or get a more layback adult.

That's the thing, I like sibes, I don't want any other spitz. I don't know how many pups in a litter of traditionally bred sibes would be 'less full on' I guess that is what I am saying, it might be more useful to encourage breeding to favour the less full on type which may be less likely to end up in pounds?

If you like a breed and want to own a breed, you accept the breed quirks and it's temperament, warts and all. Develop a relationship with a breeder who knows and understands their breed and lines, but there is only so much a breeder can do to match you up, if ultimately your lifestyle and abilities are not suitable for the particular breed.

If they aren't and you find yourself wanting something that is not the norm for a breed, then it probably isn't for you and it's time to move on and find another that is.

Edited February 11, 2010 by SBT123

[SpikesPuppy]

Collie (Rough)

Temperament: (Not specified.)

Collie (Smooth)

Temperament: Should be gay and friendly, never nervous nor aggressive.

[WoofnHoof]

It's way past my bedtime but before I sign off I just want to point out that I love my dog, I love my breed and I love the way they are but I also can see where there can be changes made for the good of the huge amount of dogs in the pounds. When I say majority I'm just guessing based on the huge numbers that are in pounds, my local pound had 7 in at once when I inquired a while back. At the end of the day it's too many dogs in pounds and I would rather we looked at all avenues available to us in working to solve the problem, if a breeder can advertise a laid back line of sibes and take some of the market share from the bybs then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Kissindra]

I don't follow the logic.

There are thousands of happy, healthy, laid back and easily trainable dogs who got dumped, their lack of high-shed coat or sibe-like quirks didn't stop them being dumped!

[Jed]

As for crossbreds being good for the average dog owner, yes, buying a dog that you cannot make any prediction on its temperament is far more reliable than buying a purebred that has a defined temperament.

Yet the "forprofit" cross-breeders are selecting for temperament over looks, while purebreed breeders may well put looks first.

Breeders weight temperament. Have you been to a dog show? A boxer which is not confident about being handled by the judge can go last, a cocker which is not demonstrating "merry" when he is gaiting, ditto, Cavaliers which are unhappy about the noise, the people, and the other dogs aren't going to win much on a regular basis, so breeders are encouraged to breed temperament TO the standard.

If the standard says "aloof" that's how the judge wants the dogs to be. there's many a dog with top conformation which wasn't shown because his temperament didn't match his conformation. He might have been a good dog, and a nice pet, but he wasn't good enough in the temperament stakes for the ring.

"For profit" crossbreeders in the main couldn't care less about temperament, the dogs are down in the sheds, they don't have to live with them, they sell to pet shops or via air, and never have to talk to owners about temperament. There is no marker for temperament in a cross bred. additionally, they have a hell of a time buying a registered purebred, so they buy from other puppy farms or pet shops. The people who are breeding the dogs they use for breeding arent worried about temperament either.

Half those timid cringing puppy farm dogs are like that because they don't have the correct temperament in the first place. Yep, the puppy farm didn't help, but the temperament was wrong to begin with.

Additionally, "for profit" breeders often have NFI what the temperament of the breed ought to be. All they are interested in is a uterus with hair on the outside, or testicles (with or without hair) in a dog which wont actually take your hand off when you pat him. When you chuck him his food once a day, hose out his living quarters occasionally, you don't really know what his temperament actually IS. So how can you breed for something which is an unknown?

Woofnhoof

don't you think that if someone less prepared for the extreme aspects of sibe characteristcs were to buy a sibe it would be better to offer them one which was not so challenging?

Yes, if the breeder knew of a line of mild sibes, and some are. If someone had told you all about sibes before you bought, you may not have bought - or you may have been better prepared. Additonally, if you remove the drive, you will probably remove a few other things which make sibes unique. The drive and temperament has been developed over hundreds of years - if you remove that, what do you have? A different dog.

The reason sibes are in the pound is because people bought them without knowing what they were getting, particularly in the way of fencing. Because they bought the cosmetics, not the personality, they were disappointed. Someone should have educated them. But pf only want the money, not the responsibility, so no one talked to them about the responsibilities involved.

All dogs, all breeds, including cross breeds have positives and negatives. The art to being happy with your breed is to choose one which has more positives FOR YOU. And that will mean research. Dog's aren't disposable, people need to choose wisely, there are heaps of breeds out there all different, it is simply a matter of choosing, and doing to research.

Boxers can jump or climb any fence under about 2.5m, they also jump all over people, knock the kids over, tample the baby, lick your forehead on the run, jump into the village preacher's lap when licking him, yet few of them are dumped. Because the majority are bred by registered breeders, or byb with some experience, and the buyer knows he needs good fencing, and good training. He is prepared for his responsibiity. When as many are bred by pf as sibes are, the dumpage rate will increase in direct proportion, because the buyer who thought "they looked nice" will easily be able to buy one, which he can't do now.

And if you had gone to a decent breeder, chances are they would have discussed the purchase of the pup with you, and you would have had second thoughts, or the breeder would have advised against the purchase, or you would have been prepared.

The majority of owners of sibes from registered breeders are happy with them. They accept the temperament, and work with it or around it.

Although YOU see some problems, there are thousands of sibe owners who are totally happy with their dog. I don't think any breeder would consider changing the temperament of an entire breed for ONE disgruntled puppy farm purchaser of a sibe.

As far as I am aware, all registered breeders of sibes sell as many as they breed.

I find your posts terribly contradictary. On one hand, you expect all dogs to be tested in their traditional role. If sibes were tested, and only those who passed tests were used for breeding, it would be likely that the dogs would be even more prey driven, and likely to climb out more often, because only the high drive dogs which could place in sledding events would be used for breeding.

You can't have it both ways.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Jed

[Diva]

Then don't read my posts of my impressions of what was said, then be patient and wait for the DVD release to get your own impressions.

Seriously, after this foretaste I don't think I'll bother.

[Jed]

KismetKat

I train with a Boxer group and I don't see any of them exhibiiting some aspects of this standard unless you add to the line " distrustful of strangers" "distrustful of dogs with noses longer than my own" and to this line "brave and determined when roused" "and any long-nosed dog will 'rouse' me".

Oogh, I digress. Tell me more. I'm really curious. 'Specially "any long nosed dog will rouse me". Shouldn't happen. Should be polite and respectful in public, and only roused when a threat is perceived. Are these males or females? What level obedience are they at? And, um what are the owners like?. Boxers will very happily take advantage of someone who is not their leader. Being smarter than the dog is a pre-requisite to boxer ownership, in my opinion.

Boxers, particularly the adult males, can be very territorial - and that may include "roused" but not to any great degree, or enough to be a problem, because they have had socialisation and training. I am honestly interested. As someone who strives very hard to breed to the standard, the character of the boxer is very important.

Are these off standard boxers, or are they untrained boxers, doing as they please?

You'll have to come to the boxer enclave at shows - boxers lying and sitting everywhere, not a cross word - but with other boxers, I guess. Not a cross word to other dogs passing by, or those owners of GSD or dalmations (or my own longer nosed dogs of other breeds who share the boxer enclave) who are lured into the boxer enclave by the oysters kilpatrick, or the vodka martinis and champagne. Or the smutty jokes

My own live happily with other breeds, and have lived with an assortment of rescues, mostly long nosed without difficulty.

[SpikesPuppy]

As for crossbreds being good for the average dog owner, yes, buying a dog that you cannot make any prediction on its temperament is far more reliable than buying a purebred that has a defined temperament.

Yet the "forprofit" cross-breeders are selecting for temperament over looks, while purebreed breeders may well put looks first.

Breeders weight temperament. Have you been to a dog show? A boxer which is not confident about being handled by the judge can go last, a cocker which is not demonstrating "merry" when he is gaiting, ditto, Cavaliers which are unhappy about the noise, the people, and the other dogs aren't going to win much on a regular basis, so breeders are encouraged to breed temperament TO the standard.

If the standard says "aloof" that's how the judge wants the dogs to be. there's many a dog with top conformation which wasn't shown because his temperament didn't match his conformation. He might have been a good dog, and a nice pet, but he wasn't good enough in the temperament stakes for the ring.

Jed, I respect you but I feel you are putting too much faith in that 60 seconds a dog spends trotting around the show ring and the judges that make the decisions.

In my opinion, judges do not see a dog for long enough to gauge correct temperament, and many do know know what the correct temperament is anyway (see my examples posted on this page, the few words in the Border Terrier standard that relate to temperament give little indication and in fact, can be misleading (as a BT should not have a 'terrier temperament' unless working, and under no circumstances should they kick up a stink around other dogs unless challenged. I have had my even tempered dogs be beaten by ones who were literally choked around the ring because they were that aggressive with other dogs that if they had been on loose leads, they would have bitten. These dogs should have been excluded from the judging, and definitely not awarded above my own. I have also had my dogs 'sparred' against other terriers which is a HUGE no-no for the breed and proves the judges' ignorance)).

How does a judge guage a correct Collie (Rough) temperament if there is none advised in the breed standard?

A "Gay and friendly" Collie (smooth), how many of those do you see in the ring? And how many are allowed/encouraged to show their gayness & friendliness in the ring? Obviously they should not be depressed or slouchy but how gay is enough?? Tail wagging, swishing or should the dog be busting out of it's skin to say HI! YOU'RE MY NEW BEST FRIEND!!!

Many judges seem to expect the Smooth to have the same temperament as his Rough cousin (and that in itself, seems to be perfectly acceptable to be timid or shy. Many people are surprised when they meet Nessa as she is the epitome of "Gay and friendly", however she seems void of the "gifted with intelligence part" :D ). Not all Collies (either variety) are shy, but I have seem many who ARE, and it's very sad.

And then there are the dogs who, as soon as they step foot in the show ring, become depressed & sour due to poor handling/socialisation or maybe a bad experience or perhaps they are just BORED. Should they be barred from the breeding program because of this??

I just don't believe that the show ring is the correct place to accurately assess true temperament of a dog, especially when most shows are judged by people who have little knowledge of the breed.

Certain breeds have also been altered in the temperament stakes for the sake of pets or showing- the Dobermann, British Bulldog (not to mention the gross conformation overhaul) are two that spring to mind.

I don't believe all dogs should have the same temperament and I do believe that temperament, over conformation in many circumstances, is what draws the devotees to their breed- it's certainly why I have Border Terriers and why I recommend them to so many people. I do not like "terrier-ish" Borders, but I also do not like sooky lap-dog Borders. My male is over the top in enthusiasm, but I know it and I admit it. It looks nice in the show ring (better than my correctly temperamented girl), but it's not entirely correct for the breed (although the standard would lead one to believe so).

Edited February 11, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[centitout]

How do you work out which gene in the Siberian Husky produces dogs that are excellent escape artists, and how do you selectively breed away from this without buggering up the breed entirely?

Do you honestly think that the majority of Sibes in pounds and rescues come from reputable breeders? I don't - surely you realise that changing the breed in the way you propose will take decades, if it is even possible, what do we do about the dogs that are dumped in the mean time? Do you seriously think the problem is the dogs, and not the people who are buying and breeding them?

My sibe came from a byb but he's every inch a sibe, when I did start reading up on sibes it was like they were talking about my dog personally I never said the problem is the dogs, I'm saying it's a combination of less work for working dogs and a different environment they have to live in than the one they were bred for. It would take a longer time to filter through but don't you think that if someone less prepared for the extreme aspects of sibe characteristcs were to buy a sibe it would be better to offer them one which was not so challenging?

But what about all the Siberians in homes world wide whose owners love the breed the way it is, those of which the breed suits well? I wouldn't change anything about my Siberian. If the breed was too active for me, then I would learn from the experience and next time would buy a breed that does suit my lifestyle.

Isn't it far simpler to encourage people to buy breeds that suit them rather than try to change the inherent nature of the breed itself? What's a Siberian Husky if he's not an active dog that needs a reasonable amount of physical and mental stimulation - they are not a coach potato breed, why you would want to breed one who is, is beyond me, for the same reason I cannot fathom why anyone would breed a beagle who didn't want to scent.

Like I said before, I love my sibe and I have never regretted getting him, I may get another down the track but just because I love my boy doesn't mean I think their traits are 100% suitable for modern life and the majority of the homes they find themselves in. It's not like the dogs themselves really care how well they represent the breed standard, only humans care about that.

If there are so many byb sibes in the pound,maybe it should be left STRICTLY TO RESPONSIBLE REG BREEDERS ONLY TO BREED THEM TO START WITH and for them to choose ONLY OWNERS WHO HAVE RESEARCHED THE BREED THOROUGHLY !!!! Edited February 11, 2010 by centitout

[The Spotted Devil]

It was noted that some standards require an aloof temperament and no-one had a problem with that. There seemed to be no desire to create a "Euro" dog.

It was also acknowledged that there is currently NO way to distinguish pure bred dogs from registered breeders and those from BYBs. Compulsory microchipping was suggested to track dogs. In addition it was emphasised that breeders present at the meeting clearly gave a damn about their breeding programs and there were about 3 million of the 3.6 million dogs out there who were doing very well.

Happy to recall what I can.

[Shmurps]

Well, I'm off to pet expo. I'm going to check out the show ring, the breeds and the breeders. The show ring has never interested me before, now I'm curious.

Looking forward to it and seeing good examples of the breed.

[Rebanne]

Hmm, well her dog that was the champ was a desexed pet. Her confirmation champ dogs were alsorans in the racing stakes. One even took to snoozing in the start box and only ever had a hope of placing in long distance runs - enter her in a sprint and she was till snoozing in the start box while the others wre finishing!

But getting back to her champ racer - it reminds me of the speakers' "we desex too early" argument. If an Afghans prime thing is to run, there was one bloody good dog that was no longer in the gene pool.

a lot of dogs who won't chase a lure will chase live prey, the two are chalk and cheese.

[Rebanne]

As for crossbreds being good for the average dog owner, yes, buying a dog that you cannot make any prediction on its temperament is far more reliable than buying a purebred that has a defined temperament.

Yet the "forprofit" cross-breeders are selecting for temperament over looks, while purebreed breeders may well put looks first.

for Dogs sake what a load of bullsh!t, this would have to be the stupidist, most idiotic thing I have ever read here.

[WreckitWhippet]

It was noted that some standards require an aloof temperament and no-one had a problem with that. There seemed to be no desire to create a "Euro" dog.

It was also acknowledged that there is currently NO way to distinguish pure bred dogs from registered breeders and those from BYBs. Compulsory microchipping was suggested to track dogs. In addition it was emphasised that breeders present at the meeting clearly gave a damn about their breeding programs and there were about 3 million of the 3.6 million dogs out there who were doing very well.

Happy to recall what I can.

Unless it goes hand in hand with prey drive.

[poodlefan]

WnH

I love my dog, I love my breed and I love the way they are but I also can see where there can be changes made for the good of the huge amount of dogs in the pounds.

I agree. Start with eliminating ignorant irrresponsible breeders and educate the buyers.

Did you not read the Uni of Qld study. Dogs bred by responsible breeders are the least likely to find their way to pounds. Breed is only one component of a much more complex issue that stems from peoples attitudes to dogs.

[poodlefan]

Collie (Rough)

Temperament: (Not specified.)

Collie (Smooth)

Temperament: Should be gay and friendly, never nervous nor aggressive.

This is why extended breed standards are so useful. From the Collie Rough one:

“The Collie should instantly appeal as a dog of great beauty, standing with impassive dignity, with no part

out of proportion to the whole”

When assessing a Collie (Rough), expect to see a dog of great beauty, with dignity and balance and a

sweet, alert expression depicting gentle confidence. Balance is the key to assessing a Collie. Not only is it

vital in relation to the head properties and the expression, but it is also imperative that a dog bred for

shepherding work is balanced anatomically.

[Cosmolo]

WnH- what makes you think that reducing drive in a siberian would make them more trainable? More trainable than what? They're already far more trainable than some breeds and less trainable than others. I met two at a shelter yesterday that are there through no fault of their own and are LOVELY dogs.

Surely there are enough breeds to select the traits you want in a dog? And if you want a cross breed, go to the shelter or pound- plenty there!

I think the standards should reflect temperament ideals too- can those involved in breeds that don't have this detail in the stabdard do anything about it? Who decides to add things to the standard?

I am going to try and find the stafford thread- it was really interesting