My 2 X 2 Diary

[Agility Dogs]

Hi all,

After all our problems last year with CK and his weaving or lack there of I have decided to retrain him using the 2 x 2 method. I think the problem comes back to him not really understanding what he needs to do with his bum as he enters the poles at speed. Hopefully this approach, combined with a heap of rear end awareness exercises we have been doing will give him the help he needs. I thought for kicks I'd let Xena have a play as well - it might improve her entries and build a little more independence. At worst with her I'll end up with what I have now which is pretty good any way.

I thought I'd do a diary of sorts for anyone who is interested in the 2 x 2 method.

Day 1

All of this is done without any physical or verbal cues so the first stage is to build value for the poles - as opposed to the handler or the toy. (starting with just 2 poles). Both dogs have done one jump stuff which uses the same principle so that didn't take too long. SG trained it just with verbal markers and food rewards, used a clicker and food. The puppies picked it up in 2 or 3 goes.

Next step is to get them offer to run between the poles - same principle as above, still using food reward. This took about the same amount of time - 5 or so goes.

Then you start working the arc and always rewarding on the same line. This is also where she moved to toy reinforcement thrown out to the line - building drive and understanding of the entry.

By the end of the 30 minute session (2 dogs, 3 lots of 5 minutes each) I had one dog that was REALLY driving HARD out to the toy and not even pausing to look for me as she went through the poles.

CK was driving pretty well (as well as he ever does when live prey or a frisbee is not involved) and he too was not looking at me.

Both dogs were looking for the poles and knew that if they drive through them they would get a good game of tug.

My only concern is that I might be diluting Xena's understanding of her entries, but that will fix itself as we move onto the next stages in the process. (Working the ark from both sides with just two poles requires the dog to do what almost looks like an entry from the wrong side. Adding in the next lot of poles will fix this though.)

Will try and include some video over the next couple of days. It will be interesting to see the progress!

Let me know if you find this interesting.

[bedazzledx2]

Excellent idea probably a good idea to video him as he's learning so that if you hit a stumbling block you can see where he's going wrong. I's soooo bad with diaries I've given up trying Can you also explain what rear end awareness exercises you are teaching him.

Hi all,

After all our problems last year with CK and his weaving or lack there of I have decided to retrain him using the 2 x 2 method. I think the problem comes back to him not really understanding what he needs to do with his bum as he enters the poles at speed. Hopefully this approach, combined with a heap of rear end awareness exercises we have been doing will give him the help he needs. I thought for kicks I'd let Xena have a play as well - it might improve her entries and build a little more independence. At worst with her I'll end up with what I have now which is pretty good any way.

I thought I'd do a diary of sorts for anyone who is interested in the 2 x 2 method.

Day 1

All of this is done without any physical or verbal cues so the first stage is to build value for the poles - as opposed to the handler or the toy. (starting with just 2 poles). Both dogs have done one jump stuff which uses the same principle so that didn't take too long. SG trained it just with verbal markers and food rewards, used a clicker and food. The puppies picked it up in 2 or 3 goes.

Next step is to get them offer to run between the poles - same principle as above, still using food reward. This took about the same amount of time - 5 or so goes.

Then you start working the arc and always rewarding on the same line. This is also where she moved to toy reinforcement thrown out to the line - building drive and understanding of the entry.

By the end of the 30 minute session (2 dogs, 3 lots of 5 minutes each) I had one dog that was REALLY driving HARD out to the toy and not even pausing to look for me as she went through the poles.

CK was driving pretty well (as well as he ever does when live prey or a frisbee is not involved) and he too was not looking at me.

Both dogs were looking for the poles and knew that if they drive through them they would get a good game of tug.

My only concern is that I might be diluting Xena's understanding of her entries, but that will fix itself as we move onto the next stages in the process. (Working the ark from both sides with just two poles requires the dog to do what almost looks like an entry from the wrong side. Adding in the next lot of poles will fix this though.)

Will try and include some video over the next couple of days. It will be interesting to see the progress!

Let me know if you find this interesting.

[Agility Dogs]

Hi,

Rear end awareness =

*walking up and down a ladder on the ground.

*Pivot box - circling the pivot box with feet remaining on the box. (About 200mm x 200mm)

*Walking backwards (heeling and walking away from me)

*walking on hind legs

*Am about to make a wobble board - just a piece of board that measures about 600mm x 600mm with a door knob on the underside - puppy has to stand on it and follow me walking in a circle.

I'm open to any other suggestions.

[Staranais]

Hi,

Rear end awareness =

*walking up and down a ladder on the ground.

*Pivot box - circling the pivot box with feet remaining on the box. (About 200mm x 200mm)

*Walking backwards (heeling and walking away from me)

*walking on hind legs

*Am about to make a wobble board - just a piece of board that measures about 600mm x 600mm with a door knob on the underside - puppy has to stand on it and follow me walking in a circle.

I'm open to any other suggestions.

Interesting idea. I will be interested to check back to see how you go with the weaving!

Do you find that the dog gets confused between running between two jump uprights, and running between the sets of two weave poles? Or do you make sure that these look different somehow?

Climbing up on things (dining room chair, upturned washing basket, park bench, tree stump) with first her front paws, then all her paws, on cue, is a trick that me and pup have been practicing lately, and I think it's helping her hind end awareness. Also between the legs "heeling" is great fun and I think helps as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM

[Agility Dogs]

Interesting idea. I will be interested to check back to see how you go with the weaving!

Do you find that the dog gets confused between running between two jump uprights, and running between the sets of two weave poles? Or do you make sure that these look different somehow?

Climbing up on things (dining room chair, upturned washing basket, park bench, tree stump) with first her front paws, then all her paws, on cue, is a trick that me and pup have been practicing lately, and I think it's helping her hind end awareness. Also between the legs "heeling" is great fun and I think helps as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xx_e4S-vHM

Unfortunately we've had a couple of days off - one of the puppies is very sore and can't play and I've been slack with the other one. Will be back into it with the one who is still standing tomorrow morning though.

I don't think they will get confused between the uprights and weavers - both these dogs know how to weave - one very well (

), the other struggles with his entries - hence the retraining. The one who weaves well actually got confused because she thought they were weavers and was trying to do her entries like she would on a normal course instead of driving through them.

Good idea about the chair. Another one I forgot about is walking one leg at a time into a washing basket.

[bordacollies4me]

CK was driving pretty well (as well as he ever does when live prey or a frisbee is not involved) and he too was not looking at me.

Hey AD... use the frisbee....

the value of the frisbee will then transfer to the poles... when training you need to use your most valued reward, in CK's case a frisbee, don't throw it long and if need be do rollers along the reward line, well as close as one can get...

good luck with it, and yes some video would be great...

have fun with it it is a great process for training weavers, i have trained 3 of mine with the method and would not do it any other way...

[Staranais]

*Bump*

Just wanted to ask for an update, if you see this & have time AD? How did the 2x2 work out for you? Did you run into any problems? Do you like the final result?

[Agility Dogs]

*Bump*

Just wanted to ask for an update, if you see this & have time AD? How did the 2x2 work out for you? Did you run into any problems? Do you like the final result?

Hmmmm...........

good questions.

LOVE the 2x2's method. CK is still a bit of a work in progress - he is really quick in ANKC weavers and nails ridiculous entries, but sucks the big one in ADAA weavers. There is a 50mm difference between the spacing in the poles and he knows it. I know its not my body language, he is fearful of another 'crash' in the narrow weavers. You can see him looking as he puts his head in the entry and he either takes off or stops depending on what he sees - that sets the ton for the rest of the day. More work to be done there - but he has improved fantastically since we started using them.

Xena is amazing. She now VERY rarely misses an entry and is flying. Some challenging entries in these:

I will be using the method to train Wikki.

On top of this I've been watching at training as the newbies are coming through. My comment would be that you need a drivey and toy driven type of dog to get the best result from the method. Otherwise it is quite difficult to build the speed you are looking for.

[ness]

I used 2x2 with Kenz and she flies through her weavers and loves her weaving. I wouldn't use any other method .

[Staranais]

Thank you both for the updates!

I've been playing around with 2 poles and the malinois in the garden this week, just for fun as she's on heat and can't leave the property, it's amazed me how quickly she learned the concept of running through them with the pole on your left. Got it quicker than I would, I think!

AD, how do the ADAA weaves differ from the ANKC weaves? Your girl is great, loved the videos!

[ness]

Here you go Staranais - this is my midget girls first competition trial run with weavers - funny I ran my older girl on the same course and she messed up the weaving entrance .

http://www.youtube.com/user/ness#p/u/21/V-uaX2K1X9w

It was also the first time she had seen striped stick in the ground weaving poles. I was a little concerned about them but she was fine.

Edited November 4, 2010 by ness

[huski]

On top of this I've been watching at training as the newbies are coming through. My comment would be that you need a drivey and toy driven type of dog to get the best result from the method. Otherwise it is quite difficult to build the speed you are looking for.

Do you think it can be trained relatively well with a drivey food driven dog AD? Or does the dog really need to be toy/prey driven?

[Staranais]

Here you go Staranais - this is my midget girls first competition trial run with weavers - funny I ran my older girl on the same course and she messed up the weaving entrance

She is weaving beautifully!

[ness]

Huski SG uses food to shape the preliminary stages and throws food as a reward. It helps if you have something you can throw and I guess a toy you can throw further than you can food. By the time your sending them through 6 poles and varying your position its just easier. You could I guess use a food pouch or something and still throw that and then run to the dog and reward. I know from some of the SG one jump videos she recommends that as an alternative for dogs who are food motivated rather than toy motivated.

[ness]

pity Staranais that she can't seem to keep jumps up to save herself . Last night we had some absolutely lightening fast weaving nailing entrances at full speed and it was wonderful. I did get a little lazy with doing weaving and extreme entrances and found her extreme entrances dropped off a little. I trained her to the point where I could stand up the far end of the weavers and send her through but the last few weeks she has picked up another notch in speed and we are losing entrances and popping exits. She occasionally as a little too much drive through the poles that she gets caught up in the final pole. Still she is only a baby and we have plenty of time to work through all that.

[Staranais]

Huski SG uses food to shape the preliminary stages and throws food as a reward. It helps if you have something you can throw and I guess a toy you can throw further than you can food.

I bet you could frisbee a Krispy Kream beautifully!

[Tiggy]

Huski SG uses food to shape the preliminary stages and throws food as a reward. It helps if you have something you can throw and I guess a toy you can throw further than you can food.

I bet you could frisbee a Krispy Kream beautifully!

[ness]

We all want video of huski using a Krispy Kreme as a frisbee . But what if Krispy Kreme is no more - hmmmmmmmmm what will huski use then.

Edited November 4, 2010 by ness

[Staranais]

Yup, if there's no video, it didn't happen Becks!

Eta: if there are no Krispy Kremes, you could probably shotput a cupcake? I'm getting visions of a beagle olympics!

Edited November 4, 2010 by Staranais

[Tassie]

Another 2x2 fan here. Taught my little big man in an amazingly short time. Haven't done much follow up - he hadn't seen weavers at all for about 2 or 3 months until the other week, when I had the chance to try him out on a jumping open course that was finished with in the lunch break at the Hobart Royal - complete with major distractions of a big horse warming up right over a cloth fence.

Anyway - once he got over his astonishment at the horse - he got into his weavers and did some nice 12 weavers - not huge speed - but in the circumstances, I hadn't expected speed.

It really does teach them to just put their head down and weave to the end, as far as I can see - and when we were practising a bit more, he was getting quite difficult entries.

Huski, I reckon you could use a Tug n Treat sort of tossable food toy. Oh, and wait - wasn't Sue H using a bait plate with Dennis in the vids she had up?