Inside Dogs And Visiting Kids

[poodle proud]

Firstly a big thankyou to the dol'ers who gave me heaps of info when we had an incident with OH and midnight last month. Advice has been implemented and things are improving significantly. So thanks!

Question: My two poodles are mostly inside dogs and dont have a lot to do with children under 3. Both have weekly supervised contact with next-door neighbours grandkids outside (they are 3 and up)

We were visited by friends yesterday with a 14 month old. I had both dogs onlead and separated them from us during lunch by confining them our hallway. They are used to following me everywhere in the house so they cried when I did this.

Does anyone have advice on how to handle inside dogs and kids? At the moment it may just be the odd vivsit I have to contend with but eventually we will have kids and I want to plan for the logistics of that arrangement now.

Thankyou in advance

PP

[Erny]

I think it would be good for your dogs to learn that just because you're in the house doesn't mean they can or need to be by your side and that it is ok to be closed away from you. That's something you'll most likely need from time to time, when you have your own children. So you can begin building on that incrementally. I don't know if your dogs are used to the idea of being outside even though you're home, but if not, that's a good place to start. Give them a bone they can happily (and safely) munch on in the yard, and deny them access to the house by closing the door. Short periods at first, gradually building up to longer periods. Also make a point of not going straight out to the yard to let them in once you return from being out. Have them wait a bit (and only permit them in if they are quiet and not hassling.

If you crate train your dogs now, you'll be able to use that for when children come over, and for when you have your own. You'll find this a boon - using a crate to help in training and to give you those albeit short but necessary moments when you don't have to be forever watching the dogs. Also helps to keep your dogs safe from some children too .

Check your leadership (looking from your dog's pov) and also work on some training with your dogs - especially stay work (sit/drop) and recall.

Teach your dogs to be calm around children - I think you've made a good start by having them on lead, so you are in a position where you can control their activity. Get them used to having their ears and tail tugged, to their paws being grabbed, and so forth. These are all things that children might do unwittingly.

Teach your dogs to sit on the word "hello" and to wait calmly even though children might be noisy and behaving irratically. This comes from teaching the 'sit' and sit/stay and then proofing by steadily but incrementally increasing the intensity of movement around them.

When you have children around, even gently but firmly hold your dogs in the sit (assuming they are not afraid of children) whilst the children have a pat (teach the kids how to approach properly) or whilst they walk in the door.

There are also things to do in preparation for when, one day, you have your own children and those things should be begun 2 or 3 months before the first child is expected to arrive. Remember that and ask early, so that you and your dogs can make use of the strategies/tips that are available, in advance.

[Animal House]

Put the dogs outside, thats the easiest way.

Not everyone wants dogs jumping all over the place when they visit, or invest in some crates, and put them in there (after crate training).

With young kids though, make sure the crates are in another room away from little hands.

[flyingduster]

crates are a wonderful thing. lol! Our girls are crate trained, and because they're used to accepting being locked away in their crates if need be, they're also totally fine with being told to 'go back to bed' if we've got visitors or whatever, and they'll simply go back to their beds in the bedroom and sleep.

[Zug Zug]

Yep - another vote for a crate arrangement here.

It's 43 degrees in Adelaide today - so both dogs inside with us all day. We pop them in their (oversized) crate while we're eating, and we've used it before during parties and when little kids come to visit. Having the crate there to put them away for short periods during the day is really helpful. They also sleep in there at night.

It's a great way of keeping them safe (the dogs I mean, but also the kids), and letting the kids roam around and babies crawl etc without having their faces licked!

Edited January 10, 2010 by Zug Zug

[arawnhaus]

Our dogs live with kids and see others often. I have found children are naturally unpredictable so I keep mine crated whilst they are visiting.

[Seita]

My girl isn't particularly good with kids so she either goes into her crate, locked in the laundry if the kids are being too annoying when she's in the crate or sometimes outside. I bring her out on a leash and let the kids pat her while they and she are calm. I preffer her to be in the crate where she can see everything (it's in the lounge room) but often kids poke fingers in there and stress her out despite my asking them not to numerous times, thats when she gets put out of sight with a bone to keep her safe and calm! I can't avoid kids, I don't like them but I have 17 neices and nephews so I don't really have a choice!!

[poodle proud]

As always Erny you have given me such practical advice, Thankyou!!!

Give them a bone they can happily (and safely) munch on in the yard, and deny them access to the house by closing the door.

I have done this once before but it ended in a massive fight when one dog wanted the others bone. I could try and plcae them in separate parts of the yard though.

Also make a point of not going straight out to the yard to let them in once you return from being out. Have them wait a bit (and only permit them in if they are quiet and not hassling.

The dogs are in the house when I am home so would it be the same thing if I went to my bedroom and shut the door until they were calm?

Teach your dogs to sit on the word "hello" and to wait calmly even though children might be noisy and behaving irratically. This comes from teaching the 'sit' and sit/stay and then proofing by steadily but incrementally increasing the intensity of movement around them.

Does this mean you say hello instead of sit when you are asking for the behaviour?

There are also things to do in preparation for when, one day, you have your own children and those things should be begun 2 or 3 months before the first child is expected to arrive. Remember that and ask early, so that you and your dogs can make use of the strategies/tips that are available, in advance.

Yes, I certainly will. Given your suggestions I have a lot to work on but plenty of time to get it right thankfully.

Thanks so much everyone else for your replies! As I was expecting crating looks like it comes highly reccomended and will be the way to go.

Further to this (and will sound silly) But do they feel left out if you send them to their crate rather than seeking refuge in the crate themselves? Or am I humanising them too much. I'm happy to be set straight

[poodlefan]

crates are a wonderful thing. lol! Our girls are crate trained, and because they're used to accepting being locked away in their crates if need be, they're also totally fine with being told to 'go back to bed' if we've got visitors or whatever, and they'll simply go back to their beds in the bedroom and sleep.

x 2

I would definitely be introducing crate training. If you are interested in agility, you will need to crate your dogs at trials anyway.

Toss a tasty chew in their crates and they'll be in there like a shot. I feed my Whippet in his crate for every meal.

Edited January 11, 2010 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Give them a bone they can happily (and safely) munch on in the yard, and deny them access to the house by closing the door.

I have done this once before but it ended in a massive fight when one dog wanted the others bone. I could try and plcae them in separate parts of the yard though.

I probably wasn't clear, but that's what I meant by "and safely". IOW, have them separated so a fight over bones doesn't spoil the pleasant occupation they were intended for.

Also make a point of not going straight out to the yard to let them in once you return from being out. Have them wait a bit (and only permit them in if they are quiet and not hassling.

PP :

The dogs are in the house when I am home so would it be the same thing if I went to my bedroom and shut the door until they were calm?

If that's the case, then I would ignore them until they leave you alone. Then do a recall and you're free to interact. I don't want to make this so that you have to send yourself to your bedroom !! LOL. But do try to put them outside and have them get used to the fact that "you inside" doesn't always correlate with "them inside". Denied access (to you) I think is one of the hardest things (and is commonly when dogs kick up a fuss) because they are pack animals. We humans need to teach them in the nicest and least stressful way that this is not how life always is in the human world.

Teach your dogs to sit on the word "hello" and to wait calmly even though children might be noisy and behaving irratically. This comes from teaching the 'sit' and sit/stay and then proofing by steadily but incrementally increasing the intensity of movement around them.

PP :

Does this mean you say hello instead of sit when you are asking for the behaviour?

Yes. Just as you taught "sit" in the first place, go back to the start but use the word "hello" instead. When they catch on to that and you're in the proofing stages, start giving the "hello" word in tones that visitors and children might give, so that it has a better chance of working in those scenarios. Tone of voice makes all the difference to dogs (which goes to show it is not the word that counts so much). Many people can't get my dog to sit because they use the wrong tone of voice. Once I tell them the tone he needs, then he'll respond.

PP :

Further to this (and will sound silly) But do they feel left out if you send them to their crate rather than seeking refuge in the crate themselves? Or am I humanising them too much. I'm happy to be set straight

If you make the crate a nice place to be (which is what crate "training" is about) and not a place of punishment, they should be fine. You can give them something yum to chew on as well, and you'll be assured in the safe knowledge that each has the comfort and security of their own separate crates which will keep them from harm. Working on getting them used to "denied access" will help with this as well, if the crates are outside of the room. But as a poster has already mentioned, sometimes the crates can be in the same room and this can also help with your dogs realising that "visitors" doesn't mean "dogs rule".

And I think it was Cosmolo who suggested that you can teach your dogs to go to a mat when the door bell rings (and/or someone knocks). You can change that to them retreating to their crates as an 'automatic'. There's quite a few incremental steps to take to teach them this and it will help if you have the respect of 'leadership' on your side. It takes a bit of practice, but it can and does work if you keep at it. Consistency is the key, no matter how hurried you are to get to the door to answer it. That's where people often fail. I'm not backwards in coming forwards with a "WAIT ON WHILST I SORT OUT MY DOG!!" greeting to visitors - and that's BEFORE I even approach the door, LOL. I'm sure they wonder what the heck is on the other side of the door and I do wonder if they think I have some sort of attack dog in the house, LOL. Doesn't hurt for random unknown visitors to be a little bit apprehensive . I trained this trick with my friend's dog and used it as a demo for an event Pro-K9 was invited to. We had to use a block of wood to knock on as the cue, because it was too hard to carry a door around .

Edited January 11, 2010 by Erny

[sandra64]

I had my first kelpie over 25 years ago before i had kids. She was still with me when pregnant with my first child....She was like my child and i still treated her the same when my 1st son arrived. While i was pregnant Cass use to lay with me with her head on my belly as if she new....Once Lachlan arrived she was his little guardian...He was a christmas eve baby so it was very hot...I used to have him in the middle of the family room floor with the doors wide open, she would sit on the edge of the mat, just protecting him.I was there of course never left him alone....As he started to walk, she was there right beside him everywhere, never a jealous moment from her and she hadnt really been introduced to anything but young drunks in our backyard before i had children :-)

[alpha bet]

The forum is not really the place to get the ideas you need, it is only a place to touch base. The issue is too important to be left bits and pieces of advice. There are many books and trainers who specialize in just this issue. It is worth your while actually seeking them out to have one on one discussions and some sessions.

However - My best advise to you is to have the right attitude and develop the correct philosphy and you will win out.

1. It doesnt matter what breed you have - poodles or rottweilers - it is your responsibility to ensure that your dogs have the social skills to deal with children - your own and others kids to.

2. If your dogs are spoilt you will have problems - therefore firstly ensure your dogs understand that they are dogs, not substitute children.

3. Crates are not the only solution - a crated dog can easily end up a target for kids - Your dogs must learn to be good with all ages of children, plus your kids learn early how to respect dogs. Therefore should the dogs and children accidently end up in the same room unsupervised they know how to deal with each other.

4. With other peoples children you have to be much more vigilant as you have no definite idea of how other people teach their kids to handle dogs. In your home tho you are the boss - it is up to you to intercept if the visitors kids are inappropriate, not just wait for their parents to step in.

5. Remember your dogs also have to learn not to react to bad kids either.

Congratulations on recognising the need before you have children and not like many of my clients who had kids and then realise they have problems - it takes a great deal more effort after kids come along.

[poodlefan]

Double post

Edited January 11, 2010 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

Deleted. Double post

Edited January 11, 2010 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

Your dogs must learn to be good with all ages of children, plus your kids learn early how to respect dogs. Therefore should the dogs and children accidently end up in the same room unsupervised they know how to deal with each other.

Exactly what does that entail? How tolerant of abuse should a dog have to be?

How will this protect them from strange kids?

I don't expect my dogs to have to tolerate being teased or abused. They all have good bite inhibition but I regard is as my job to keep them safe, regardless of what the threat to them is.

Fear aggressive dogs and resource guarders know they're dogs, not children. I don't think its only "spoilt" dogs that can have issues with kids.

Put a dog in a room with a kid, remove the ability for it to leave and push it hard enough and most WILL at least snap in defence. Good bite inhibition is the most important part of dog safety around kids IMO.

Edited January 11, 2010 by poodlefan

[alpha bet]

Your dogs must learn to be good with all ages of children, plus your kids learn early how to respect dogs. Therefore should the dogs and children accidently end up in the same room unsupervised they know how to deal with each other.

Exactly what does that entail? How tolerant of abuse should a dog have to be?

How will this protect them from strange kids?

I don't expect my dogs to have to tolerate being teased or abused. They all have good bite inhibition but I regard is as my job to keep them safe, regardless of what the threat to them is.

Fear aggressive dogs and resource guarders know they're dogs, not children. I don't think its only "spoilt" dogs that can have issues with kids.

Put a dog in a room with a kid, remove the ability for it to leave and push it hard enough and most WILL at least snap in defence. Good bite inhibition is the most important part of dog safety around kids IMO.

Poodlefan.... please dont nitpick at a post that is intended to offer some food for thought to the member asking for advice. Please note that I said she needed to work directly with a trainer for advice as this is a serious issue. At no time did i state that your dog should "tolerate abuse" as you say.

But then you are welcome to your own opinion.... perhaps I am ignorant of your experience in this field and should bow to your authority on this matter as you obviously believe you have the answer to this problem.

Best of luck to the original poster of this thread.

[poodlefan]

Your dogs must learn to be good with all ages of children, plus your kids learn early how to respect dogs. Therefore should the dogs and children accidently end up in the same room unsupervised they know how to deal with each other.

Exactly what does that entail? How tolerant of abuse should a dog have to be?

How will this protect them from strange kids?

I don't expect my dogs to have to tolerate being teased or abused. They all have good bite inhibition but I regard is as my job to keep them safe, regardless of what the threat to them is.

Fear aggressive dogs and resource guarders know they're dogs, not children. I don't think its only "spoilt" dogs that can have issues with kids.

Put a dog in a room with a kid, remove the ability for it to leave and push it hard enough and most WILL at least snap in defence. Good bite inhibition is the most important part of dog safety around kids IMO.

Poodlefan.... please dont nitpick at a post that is intended to offer some food for thought to the member asking for advice. Please note that I said she needed to work directly with a trainer for advice as this is a serious issue. At no time did i state that your dog should "tolerate abuse" as you say.

But then you are welcome to your own opinion.... perhaps I am ignorant of your experience in this field and should bow to your authority on this matter as you obviously believe you have the answer to this problem.

Best of luck to the original poster of this thread.

How is it "nitpicking" to ask you to explain what you mean by the statement "your dog must learn to be good with all ages of children".

To some people that might suggest that the dog must learn to be tolerant of abuse. I just asked you to elaborate.

Please note that I did not give the OP "the answer" to her problem. I do not profess to be an expert in dog aggression. I do know how easily advice can be misinterpeted.

Were you aware that one of these dogs has a bite history?

Edited January 12, 2010 by poodlefan

[The Spotted Devil]

I think my dog is great with people and kids.

However, currently my sister-in-law and family are staying with us for a week. Ziggy had a lovely run this morning and came home ready to follow his usual routine of diving into his bed, located next to me at the computer. There was a lot of activity as everyone was bustling around getting ready and no-one could resist giving Zig a pat on the head every 5 seconds. I could see he was trying to be patient but was just fed up at being disturbed every time he closed his eyes. So, I quietly removed him from the living area and reminded him where his crate was (in our bedroom) and just shut the door. He was so grateful (as were the cats) to have a break from all the attention. Now that everyone has gone out for the day, he is back in his rightful place and is fast asleep. We both like our personal space it seems

[poodle proud]

Hi all,

I apologise for my late reply. Work has rudely taken me away from the forum lately

I am very grateful for all the advice and personal experiences that have been offered. I realise that the advice may not preclude the need for professional intervention at some stage. I was more wanting to know what I could be doing in daily life to help my dogs cope better with visiting kids as I said. So the exercise that have been suggested are very gratefully recieved.

I am really going to need to sit down and write myself a list and just start including the exercises into in the training I am doing.

Erny I did the ignoring trick when I got home from work today and it didnt actually take long for them to calm down and do their own thing before I could call them over. ;)

Plus I am searching online for crates. I really want to get the fabric ones but after reading lots on crates I should probably go for a wire one. Osca would be fine in a fabric crate but Middi might learnt to escape too easily too quickly.

Thankyou everyone.

Edited because I pressed the wrong key which submitted my post too early.

Edited January 13, 2010 by poodle proud