Images Of Dogs "in Drive"

[Aidan]

I question whether you can train "in drive" with corrections. Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has said that corrections suppress drive.

You've been speaking to the wrong people. Corrections can be used to suppress drive, they can also be used to increase drive.

[Kelpie-i]

I agree Aiden. It's dependant on the dog and the situation in which the correction is applied.

I believe it was Jack Volhard who first "pioneered' training in drive in the 70's, although I think he termed it "motivatinal training". Whilst it was probably not a new concept, I think he may have been the first to actually put pen to paper with it and introduced it formally as a training technique.

Further to the break downs as mentioned by Erny, I was given a link many years ago to a theory paper written about drive and how it works. I printed it out but I cannot for the life of me remember where I've put it. It was about 20 pages long and made for very interesting reading.

From memory, the writer mentions both drives and modes within a dog. Drives are intrinsic and therefore hard-wired into the dog. The 3 main drives all dogs have are Pack, Predatory and Defense, with a dog being able to switch from one to the other very easiy and quite quickly. Then he spoke about Modes, which are 'off shoots' of each drive. Ie:

Predatory: play, chase, catch, tug, shake or kill

Pack: running (as a pack), eating (food), mating etc

Defense: growl, lunge, attack

Therefore, all the different modes we see from our dogs stem from one of the 3 main drives.

Whilst we may term behaviours as prey drive (as an example), the actual behaviours such as chasing and even tugging are modes, or part of the sequence of behaviours of predatory drive.

[Diva]

People like to cite dogs that run through barbed wire fences. I seriously doubt that barbed wire is much of a punishment at that moment. I've been reading a book about the biological effects of stress. It's very interesting, but essentially the body barely feels pain when under extreme physical stress.

Of course. It's a received wisdom amongst Borzoi people, and I've heard other sighthound people say it too, that the same dog who will complain if you accidentally step on a toe could break a leg coursing and not be bothered. I've had a dog come back from a run with his front leg ripped open its whole length, probably on a stick, without any reaction from the dog at all. But then I read the other day of a football player who ripped off a finger in practise and didn't notice, we are not so different.

It's one of the reasons I think the conditioned response is so important in those circumstances. It doesn't matter what punishment or reinforcer I have at hand when I want to call them back in that state, but how well I have conditioned the recall matters a lot.

I believe it was Jack Volhard who first "pioneered' training in drive in the 70's, although I think he termed it "motivatinal training". Whilst it was probably not a new concept, I think he may have been the first to actually put pen to paper with it and introduced it formally as a training technique.

Further to the break downs as mentioned by Erny, I was given a link many years ago to a theory paper written about drive and how it works. I printed it out but I cannot for the life of me remember where I've put it. It was about 20 pages long and made for very interesting reading.

It was certainly the Volhards who I always attributed the written concept to.

When I first read their stuff back in the day it was very useful - I was training a dog who after reading that I thought was clearly mostly pack driven and a trainer recommending entirely the wrong level of correction for such a dog.

But then I learnt about operant and classical conditioning which was even more useful - coming back to the drive concept and reconciling the 'new' drive language within a logical framework has been making my head hurt

Edited January 20, 2010 by Diva

[Quickasyoucan]

does this pic count as in drive given that it is the end of the predatory sequence or would that it be drive satisfaction?

My dog would run through anything in drive but he stops whilst out on a lead walk if he gets a bindi in his foot and won't walk any further

PS he does have a tail it just seems to have disappeared!!

Edited January 20, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[WreckitWhippet]

The shaddow is on his dark eyes so the pic lacks the intensity but he's working

[Kelpie-i]

Great pics SBT123 It is difficult to capture intensity in still shots but we certainly get a good idea. 3rd image shows intensity in the eyes!

[bedazzledx2]

They do call them Space Cadets don't they!!!!!! (also joking )

Yeah Longcoat drive is really all about the people that don't own Border Collies trying to compete with people that do

Disclaimer: For people with NO sense of humor - I am joking

[WreckitWhippet]

Great pics SBT123 It is difficult to capture intensity in still shots but we certainly get a good idea. 3rd image shows intensity in the eyes!

She's very driven , I sometimes wish she had a kill switch

[corvus]

I question whether you can train "in drive" with corrections. Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has said that corrections suppress drive.

You've been speaking to the wrong people. Corrections can be used to suppress drive, they can also be used to increase drive.

You were the one that told me to judge the result, not the action.

I've heard people talk about using corrections to bring about a drive shift and using them to increase drive. At first I thought the former was a punishment, but watched some videos and changed my mind. Looks more like an interruptor or fairly neutral signal to me, because the dog barely registers. Did it decrease the behaviour that was corrected? In time, yes, but was it punished or not maintained? Does that correction inhibit the behaviour or tell the dog he's not gonna get a bite? Tricky. I suspect it depends heavily on the dog and the trainer. As for the latter, what behaviour decreases when drive increases? I experienced an intriguing thing with Erik not long ago. I didn't want him to do something, so I created barriers to physically stop him. They were tough, but conquerable. Erik's "drive" to do that thing I didn't want him to do definitely increased significantly and quickly and I had an obsession on my hands. It was utterly fascinating, but an important lesson for me in what can happen when a drivey animal is offered resistance he can defeat. So now you take a toy away from Erik when he's very worked up and he doubles his effort to get it because in the past, his unexpected leaps at the toy have resulted in success. Woo! If he was a hunting dog and his prey had just spun around and bit him, there's a good chance he'd fly at it with renewed vigour. It's important stuff for predators. :p

Note: again, I'm talking about corrections as a punishment.

There's a chapter in the book about stress I'm reading at the moment that deals with situations that would normally be stressful but are highly pleasurable instead. What's with that? the author says quite eloquently. He then goes on to describe what we know about tickling, which is that it's only fun in safe surroundings and is out of your control, and that it's the most fun when it's anticipated. Furthermore, scientists have proven that it's the anticipation that releases dopamine, which travels along our pleasure pathways, nowhere else. In the author's words it's about mastery, confidence and expectation. When the animal anticipates a reward, they get all juiced up on dopamine, more so than when actually partaking of the reward. This is so marked that psychologists have named it the "appetitive" state and the actual reward as the "consummatory" state. Man, I'm so excited I can hardly type.

Soooo, according to Robert M. Sapolsky's synthesis of scary complicated psychology (I totally love this guy), normally stressful conditions such as being surprised or lacking control can be a good deal of fun in a benign context (e.g. rollercoasters). It's fun on it's own, but add some anticipation of the fun and your dopamine levels spike before you even get on the rollercoaster. Now, bringing this back to dogs and drive training, tickling has been described as an establishing operation by psychologists, which is what you told me drive was. And this is the really exciting bit. If we know how to make a tickle totally awesome (which we do), then logic follows that seeing as most of this is just neurochemistry and works equally well in rats and primates, we can apply the same principles to drive training. That is, the reward should be highly anticipated ("I know this, I just do that and then I get to play tug. This is gonna be so great!"), it should be a little unpredictable (dog doesn't know when he's going to get to play tug) and the dog should be in surroundings he perceives as safe as houses, so to speak. Sapolsky also talks about the optimum level of dopamine to maximise pleasure, and that is it should increase gently and be of short duration. There are all sorts of bad stress chemicals contributing to the whole shebang, so if it is too prolonged or too sudden, the dopamine doesn't get released but all the bad stuff does, or else the dopamine runs away and the bad stuff reigns i.e. stress.

Phew.

People should read this book. It makes everything I've been struggling with in psychology papers lately so simple and straight-forward. "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" by Robert M. Sapolsky, who I'm going to marry because he's a scientist AND has a sense of humour AND can explain complex concepts so that anyone can understand them.

Edited January 20, 2010 by corvus

[Aidan]

There's a chapter in the book about stress I'm reading at the moment that deals with situations that would normally be stressful but are highly pleasurable instead. What's with that? the author says quite eloquently. He then goes on to describe what we know about tickling, which is that it's only fun in safe surroundings and is out of your control, and that it's the most fun when it's anticipated. Furthermore, scientists have proven that it's the anticipation that releases dopamine, which travels along our pleasure pathways, nowhere else.

So you're getting a pretty good handle on drive-building? You can see that this dopamine release is respondent behaviour (one of many respondents associated with drive), you can condition certain stimuli to 'turn it on' (Classical Conditioning), which 'establishes operations', then you can use consequences to shape which operants are expressed whilst the dog is in drive, thus gaining some control.

Pretty useful stuff, hey?

It works on people, too. Think of the little rituals we follow before a sports game or other performance. The smell of Deep Heat gets my adrenaline flowing now, all those stinking change-room psyche-ups before rugby. Coach whips us up into a state so that we can do things that would otherwise result in someone getting arrested for violent assault. It's all very deliberate.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: ETA Here's something intersting that kind of illustrates the drive continuum. This is a video of Kivi playing tug. He's really not at a particularly high level of motivation, and it's interesting to note that his movements are slower than Ella and Kaos and you can see that while he is motivated enough to jump for the toy, he is hardly at the same level of motivation that they are. He doesn't jump as readily and tugs more lazily.

K9: This dog isn't in drive, drive can be described as an "adrenalin based behaviour" & there is very little of anything going on here.

This doesnt mean the dog has no drive, just you haven't triggered it with the action you are using with the "prey" item.

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S: Just one thing that needs to be remembered here is that, with my girl for example, her drive has been channeled into working for me to achieve her reward. So she might look like she's just very focussed etc, which is why I posted the training videos as well as the final outcome.

K9: Yep 100% by pairing the game & reward process with the handler, the handler becomes the reward source, even if the reward is obtainable by the dog, it isnt complete without the handler release, which is part of the trigger to partake in the reward.

Training in drive teaches the dog that it's handler is the key to achieve drive satisfaction,

K9: Training in drive can really be any adrenalin based game that ends up with the dog learning something.

Good training in drive programs ensure the handler is in control of the reward systems & triggers, then & then only can moves be reliably trained.

the first stage of training in drive is building drive for something whether thats food or prey (now I'm using the word prey here which means chasing a toy so you can refer to it as play drive if you like), once you have the dog to a good level of drive for that thing, then you start adding control and focus so teaching the dog that to achieve the reward it needs to follow the handlers commands. The drive building is the key part of this method as it teaches the dog to use everything it's got - energy, adrenaline, phsycial power etc to get it's reward which ultimately ends with a very alert, very confident, very reliable dog.

K9: Its also about the dog becoming aware that it has no concerns about the alpha issuing punishment in a drive sequence & can enter full drive without concern. IE Trust.

Continuing with the example of a dog chasing something, has anyone ever had a dog take off after something and when you call it you get no response? Well that dog is in drive and when a dog is in drive it ignores things like noise and often pain as well, that is probably the key element of training in drive.

Another example with my dog, Ella is fear agressive she cannot tolerate being near other dogs and will snap at them out of fear if they are too close. But when I ask her to go into prey drive she focusses so much on me that she doesn't see or hear the other dogs and will heel right in front of a lunging dog and pay no attention to it... out of drive I wouldn't get within 2 meters of that dog. To me this is one of the most important aspects of training in drive.

K9: Another way to say this is that, many training programs teach exercises on a conscious level, meaning the dogs understand perfectly how to complete the request. This is like std obedience through repetition.

The problem with this is that, when the dog is trained this way & confronted with a drive trigger, they leave the conscious style of training & go after the drive trigger.

They also can lack the enthusiasm you see in Seita's dog.

Training in drive approaches this problem from a different angle in that, we use the drive to train the dog so it is the ultimate distraction.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit! Perhaps someone can convince K9Force to come in here and explain drive a bit better - there is a good article on his website about drive and how it works for those who are interested in the chemical reaction that goes on in dog's heads when they are in drive.

K9: Your did well! But of course your videos prove that!!!!!!

[Steve K9Pro]

N: I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

K9: It should be noted that, in "my" training in drive program I don't advise throwing toys/balls/rewards in early stages of training. There are about 50 problems that can arise from this (in my experience) so its not done.

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C: Incidentally, Kivi's recall was trained with high value food rewards. He comes at a gallop and he'll do whatever is necessary to get there. At times, that has meant dodging dogs that are trying to tackle him, or yesterday it was leaving a fast and rough game of tug with me (thanks OH) and running about a hundred metres to my partner whom he could not actually see.

K9: If your dog was highly motivated by the toys, this would be an accomplishment, but if he is not, dodging toys is like running on grass, not dodging anything really.

Many people feel that something that has been defined by someone as a reward will always be a challenge to overcome, the thing to remember is "the reward must be rewarding to the dog".

C: Huski, I keep the movements to Kivi's level of motivation. When we get out into the dog park he often gets a lot more animated and I follow suit with bigger and faster movements. If I move it faster before he's in the mood for it he'll disengage and wander off. The whole point is that he has fun, so I don't push him.

K9: Whilst ever you let the dog call the shots, you wont train him.

K: This is what I see in Annie when I train her in drive – that desperation, she would do absolutely anything to get the ball. The adrenalin is pumping and it takes all her effort to control herself and work before getting the reward. When she is working, it's only me, her and the ball - nothing else exists. For example we've just started recalls and she explodes out of the sit/drop position so fast that she comes barrelling into me (we’re working on that!). TID allows her to achieve a level of intensity that she otherwise wouldn’t.

K9: & it also provides satisfaction which provides balance in the dogs life. Without this in a highly driven dog, many unwanted behaviours form.

C: The "little bit" was what I was trying to illustrate, if you read my post. This isn't really meant to be an instructional thread about drive so much as a "this is what it looks like" thread, and my purpose in posting Kivi in low level drive was to illustrate low level drive. I wasn't actually looking for criticism, but there you go.

Erik is much more fun. His latest favourite is to leap at the toy when I'm least expecting it (like, walking along with toy tucked in arm pit). He has a way to go yet, but we're having fun getting there.

K9: Sorry about the criticism but, having a driven dog leap at your armpit to steal a toy isnt the goal either, it is one of the reasons people dont like training in drive, they think it will produce a dog that will do this and its dangerous. Its developing a subconscious behaviour that has no benefit.

[Steve K9Pro]

R: I'd love more info on why/why not to use balls as a reward if anyone can help?

K9: there is no reason why not to use a ball for TID, I just dont throw the ball for the dog to retrieve if I want focus from the dog.

I have two Labradors, one of the most food focused breeds out there (no, really! ) but BOTH will work with a heck of a lot more enthusiasm for their squeaky ball than food.

K9: I havent really thought of Labs as food "driven" dogs, because as retrievers they primarily are prey driven by breed definition.

They'd turn themselves inside out for it if they could. If I can use this to my advantage, I want to! I use the balls so far for not only reward, but distraction training. I know the squeaky part is an issue for reward at ringside (big no-no!) but I'd love to find a way to make it work for us for the obedience ring (transfer the value to another toy?) They just go NUTS for it and will do just about anything I ask for it. Outside distractions like other dogs to my social butterflies are practically blocked out by this magical ball

K9: They sound great, the first thing we would do in my program is stop throwing the ball. lol..

N: Hmmm but if your dog is truely ball driven then the only drop off in attitude/enthusiasm usually is a result of the dog not having enough physical stamina to continue to fetch - whether you have played for to long or what have you. I do find fetch interrupts a training session even more that tugging (and food) though. Just a longer time between repetitions. I tend to confine fetch to a jackpot type reward. We also tug with the ball when she returns or sometimes I throw it up in the air for her to catch. You can vary how you reward with a ball (or something like a frisbee which is easier to use for a tug and fetch).

K9: The same action can desensitize the dog to the ball throw. Your not locking the reward system into the handler either. Dogs arent born ball driven they are born prey driven, then converted.

One major problem is that, the dog often focuses on where it thinks the ball will land, then it starts to field & wait for the throw. None of this will benefit training in most cases.

[ness]

K9: It should be noted that, in "my" training in drive program I don't advise throwing toys/balls/rewards in early stages of training. There are about 50 problems that can arise from this (in my experience) so its not done.

So do we get a list of these provide at the seminar (hurry up May ). I am curious as to some of the reasons you don't recommend it. I can think of a number of trainers who would recommend rewarding a dog in position and sometimes that position isn't necessarily within close proximity to you so wonder how this fits in but do also note that you mention in your response in early stages of training. So I guess its possibly more an issue while in the drive building phase then it might be later on down the track once you have already built drive and the drive object (whether that is food or toy) is no longer required to be on you to get the dog to switch on to the level you require. Is that a fair comment?

K9: The same action can desensitize the dog to the ball throw. Your not locking the reward system into the handler either. Dogs arent born ball driven they are born prey driven, then converted. One major problem is that, the dog often focuses on where it thinks the ball will land, then it starts to field & wait for the throw. None of this will benefit training in most cases.

Well yes she is prey driven and I could just as easily exchange the ball with a frisbee, with her tug toy, with whatever I have on hand, a lead if that is all I have on me. Waiting for a throw never earns the throw unless I am having a pure energy burn off session (and lets not get started sometimes my motivation to train is low and having a dog who isn't at me is of priority - hmm sounds like a bit of an excuse to me but sometimes you have to live with a dog outside of training ). I also use specific toys for these types of sessions and there are some rules like toy always comes back to me straight away and occasionally you might be asked to sit and hold a stay while I throw it. In a training context often the toy is hidden and the first reward will be placed/dropped into position. So if we are doing heelwork I would reward the same way people would with a treat.

I guess there are also dogs that are purely about the chase and like to disappear with the ball when relesed. If I let my youngster have the toy (whether its thrown or I have released grip if its a tug toy) she is straight back at me for the game to continue.

Edited January 21, 2010 by ness

[Kavik]

One major problem is that, the dog often focuses on where it thinks the ball will land, then it starts to field & wait for the throw. None of this will benefit training in most cases.

While I don't want my dog to field, in agility I sometimes actually want my dog to focus on where he thinks the ball will land instead of on me - as I want my dog to drive ahead of me, and complete obstacles regardless of what I am doing, and know where the reward will land.

[ness]

They were my thoughts to Kavik - agility was one field I was thinking of, also things like sendaways where you want the dog driving hard away from you.

Edited January 21, 2010 by ness

[Steve K9Pro]

C: However, how they got there is a moot point when all you are trying to do is identify whether they are "in drive" or not. It's NOT a moot point if you care about which drive you are training in/using as a reward. Which you should, because as we know, not all drives were created equal. Eating a meal ain't the same as playing with a friend.

K9: Holding a toy is very much like eating a meal though. The path to get to the meal can be the same as the path to capture the tiy, if you do it right.

I also do wonder how you can make these statements when it is clear that you have no experience in training in drive?

C: Not sure about MonElite's "drive intiation". Looks like a relaxed dog to me.

K9: Then you need more experience reading body language in dogs.

Sm: This is also a vid of my dog while building drive

K9: I want to see the first one, the one you didnt record lol

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I want to know what everyone means when they say they are training "in drive". I've heard a lot of airy fairy definitions along the lines of "Oh, it's clear if you know what you're looking for and have seen dogs training in drive."

K9: Training in drive is teaching the dog to achieve drive satisfaction by interacting with the trainer.

C: but how do you know they were training in drive in the first place? Because someone else told you? What do they know? Can they characterise it??

K9: What your really asking is, what is drive? It is an adrenalin based behaviour the stems from a high desire.

I know you need a theoretical 18 page thesis on everything to understand it, this just reiterates my point, you need experince not more books.

Just because we cant see air, does that mean it isnt there?

C: Well if it looks like a lot of other things that could be anything, then it is. My food-trained dog looks the same as most of the dogs "in drive" on this thread as well.

K9: To you it does.

C: But that can hold equally for fear. I've seen a dog's pupils dilate the moment before it made an aggressive move.

K9: A dog that is highly fearful is in drive, just not a positive one. The physiological state of the body / mind is the same, the outward actions may be different.

[Steve K9Pro]

LC: In the old days, drive was a natural passion that a dog had to do something. It wasn't a taught behaviour, the dog either had it or not, like some dogs love to chase things including things that they shouldn't be chasing , and some were more lazy, couldn't be bothered..........can you get that ball for me attitude as you threw it too far away???. A high drive dog, was basically an energetic dog with a passion for physical performance and that was about it.

K9: 100% agree there, the reason that further study, research & development has occurred is to better understand how to break down the drive mtor pattern & work more effectively with it, rather than leaving success to pure genetics.

Lc: Training highly driven dogs in the old terminology, they did everything taught to them with vigor and passion which stemmed from a genetic trait, you didn't purposely initiate vigor and passion, it was already there and waiting with the best dogs, infact, the difficulty was trying to stop the vigor..........like just lay down and rest for a while as the dog had the endurance to go and go???.

K9: Agree here too, but when genetics provides just short of what is needed some drive development is needed, also the better understanding has made it possible to get them to shut off when needed.

LC: Sometimes to me, the exercises used to intitiate vigor (drive) in modern training systems seems like a device to energise dogs that don't really have the natural desires if that makes sense to anyone

K9: Dogs without natural drive never get it, dogs with just short of the requirements or perhaps nerve levels just short of desirable can be trained in drive these days were in the old days they would fail.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I question whether you can train "in drive" with corrections. Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has said that corrections suppress drive.

K9: There are a number of different stages to the drive motor pattern, at times to differentiate between them & prevent the dog crossing into another stage or dropping the dog out of a stage corrections can be used with some dogs & not lose all drive.

Furthermore, I strongly suspect that a "correction" to a dog in drive is not actually punishing to that dog at that moment.

K9: AN adrenanalised dog may be pain insenstive so may not feel the correction as a punisher, yes.

Someone was telling me their GSD needed corrections at high levels of drive to make sure it didn't go over the edge and do the wrong thing when in such a state that someone could get hurt. I find it difficult to believe that they mean anything to him other than a no reward marker. Or an interruptor, maybe. It doesn't slow him down in the least.

K9: It may stop him from going faster... Or they could just be poorly timed.

A: You've been speaking to the wrong people. Corrections can be used to suppress drive, they can also be used to increase drive.

K9: It has been common practice in protection training to increase a dogs drive for the fight by issuing multiplie pops on say a prong collar, this resembles the movies you see of footballers slapping each others faces when revving up.

Pain at the right time helps increase adrenalin.

I wouldnt refer to them as corrections though.