Images Of Dogs "in Drive"

[megan_]

I have already posted that I think its great that people are now practicing motivational reward based training. This is the norm where I train. I just don't do the jargon.

I am no expeert but it is my understanding that there is a subtle difference between the two.

Rewards based training: If the dog obeys the command, they get the reward.

Training in drive: With my boy, we tug before I ask him to do something. This gets him in a certain 'state of mind". He is much sharper - he has amazing focus. We then go through a little training routine. Then, I sometimes throw in the tug as a reward too (which is the reward aspect of the training). We are now at the point when I can show himt eh tug at the start of training, and he gets "in the xone" without us having to tug at all.

I might be doing it all wrong, but it works for me.

[angelsun]

this is my best 'drive' photo....this is Spirit at 10 weeks and being introduced to schutzhund work. She still maintains this intensity at 18 months old and is still working in Schutzhund (although the belgian people still giggle at the sight of a german pinscher at class.....until she really turns things on!)

[Diva]

That's a great photo angelsun, that pup means business!

[Staranais]

I have already posted that I think its great that people are now practicing motivational reward based training. This is the norm where I train. I just don't do the jargon.

I am no expeert but it is my understanding that there is a subtle difference between the two.

I don't think you're doing it wrong, but I choose to do it differently.

I generally do not show my girl the reward before I ask her to work in drive. I don't want to have to prove to her that I have the toy before she will go into drive! Instead, we have a verbal drive cue "are you ready to work?" that alerts her to the fact that drive rewards are now available, even if she hasn't yet seen a toy. Things like putting on her tracking harness, arriving at a wilderness or rural area, are also non-verbal cues that we're going to go work in drive. And the situation also predicts a drive reward for her sometimes, for example she knows that obeying a recall command when we're walking offleash generally predicts a drive reward. But I think it's important that she will also go into drive on the verbal cue alone, as far as possible.

On another subject, it's true that training in drive seems to have developed a jargon of its own. But the same is true of any training method, I think. Ask the average guy on the street to define "negative punishment" or "extinction" or "intermediate bridge" or "avoidance training" and he'll probably look at you just as blankly as if you asked him to define "drive cue" or "building drive".

On yet another subject, I personally think there is a huge overlap between training in drive (as the term is used by members of this forum) and reward based training (as the term is used by members of this forum). Like reward based training, training in drive is generally based on the dog earning a reward. Since you can get reward based training that isn't training in drive (no adrenaline involved), and training in drive that isn't based on reward (involves a significant number of corrections), IMO the terms aren't synonymous. But I'm sure there are many people out there doing reward based training who are working their dogs in drive, even if they don't realise they are doing so, or wouldn't describe it as such.

I can't personally imagine training a working or even a competition dog without using some form of drive training. I actively foster my girl's tug obsession, since I ultimately want a dog who not only "likes" the tug but one who is literally addicted to the hormone dump she gets when playing tug. A dog like that will search all day to earn the tug, not get bored, or tired, and give up when I still need her to work. But I don't want her only working in drive - she'd drive us all batty if she flipped into drive every time I asked her to do something around the house, and then expected to get to bite something afterwards! Around the house, she doesn't get a drive reward for doing what she's told, and I actively encourage her to relax and chill out and not spin up over everything. My point is, I don't see the point of a debate about whether "drive training" vs "non drive reward based training" is better. I think both types of training have their uses, and I couldn't imagine living with a working dog without using both types of training.

JMO.

PS - Hi Erny! Nice to "see" you again.

[ness]

Staranais about driving you batty if she literally flipped into drive every time she was given a command - Hmmmmmm got one of those yep she drives me batty but I also love that about her personality .

[JulesP]

All the borders I have owned have had such a great work ethic (even the really quiet one) that I don't feel I particularly 'need' drive.

I did try and explain drive once to my puppy class. That was hilarious. They looked at me like I was a total crazy! Was frustrating because there was a gorgy dog that would have done really well but needed to be trained in drive as it was so easily distracted.

[corvus]

Sorry, I know I said I had bowed out, but here I am again.

I question whether you can train "in drive" with corrections. Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has said that corrections suppress drive. Furthermore, I strongly suspect that a "correction" to a dog in drive is not actually punishing to that dog at that moment. Someone was telling me their GSD needed corrections at high levels of drive to make sure it didn't go over the edge and do the wrong thing when in such a state that someone could get hurt. I find it difficult to believe that they mean anything to him other than a no reward marker. Or an interruptor, maybe. It doesn't slow him down in the least. Punishments inhibit drivey behaviour. People like to cite dogs that run through barbed wire fences. I seriously doubt that barbed wire is much of a punishment at that moment. I've been reading a book about the biological effects of stress. It's very interesting, but essentially the body barely feels pain when under extreme physical stress. A lion chasing a zebra across the savanna is considered to be under extreme physical stress in this context.

Here's my mother's Boxer/Kelpie cross barely in control as she performs a sit for a toss of the toy. She is a complete nutter. She'll work for praise or fetch. Nothing else! She responds to rewards by becoming overly excited and goofy. It is very difficult to teach her anything new. My mum "discovered" drive training in a desperate attempt to teach this dog... something. Anything. She calls it reward training.

ETA by "corrections" I mean something that is perceived by the human to be a punishment for the dog.

Edited January 19, 2010 by corvus

[huski]

I have no doubt Daisy finds it unpleasant if I withdraw/ignore her/remove the reward when we are TID. It works to correct her behaviour, because it reduces the likelihood of the behaviour I'm correcting occuring again.

[corvus]

I'm sure you would know if you were punishing your dog, Huski.

It's hard to punish Erik in that way when he's "in drive". He tends to blow right through it. That's an adrenalised dog for you, I guess. Gonna withdraw my toy? We'll see about that, he says. Ignore him and he'll just zip around behind you and leap up to pinch the toy. It's a sure sign he's right on the edge and I need to bring him down a notch or two if I want to keep doing anything useful with him. If I'm smart, I don't ask him to do things he won't be able to. If he knows it, he will do it for the toy.

[Erny]

......

Edited January 19, 2010 by Erny

[Staff'n'Toller]

......

Awww see, I wanted to know what that said.

[Kelpie-i]

......

Awww see, I wanted to know what that said.

Me too

[Longcoat]

Yeah Longcoat drive is really all about the people that don't own Border Collies trying to compete with people that do

Disclaimer: For people with NO sense of humor - I am joking

I have worked a friend's BC and and she did make my GSD look a little heavy and cumbersome

[Longcoat]

Yeah Longcoat drive is really all about the people that don't own Border Collies trying to compete with people that do

Disclaimer: For people with NO sense of humor - I am joking

I was hoping to post a pic of my dog behind the wheel of my car as an image in drive, he likes a high driving position.!

My boys are back seat drivers, but why if they ever bark in the car, is it always right in your ear when you least expect it

[Erny]

......

Awww see, I wanted to know what that said.

Me too

It said

"......"

Sorry guys. I just had a change of heart. Was going to post something I thought would be helpful, but might've not been appreciated as such.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Erny

[Longcoat]

Sometimes to me, the exercises used to intitiate vigor (drive) in modern training systems seems like a device to energise dogs that don't really have the natural desires if that makes sense to anyone

Don't think it is "modern" training "systems" as such - been around for a long long time. I think perhaps it is in more recent times that explanation on how to do it has come to the forefront. And when people are learning, some structure is usually needed until they become a bit more familiar with it. And with structure comes 'step by step' style instruction, or people become a bit lost.

It's not a "devise" as such, although I don't think you intended the word to be used in its real sense.

And if the "natural desire" wasn't there, you wouldn't get anything from it. It is about taking that "natural desire" and encouraging it to 'bloom', shall we say. And then using what you have encouraged to 'bloom' to attain the best in obedience/performance that you can. Of course if the dog is genetically blessed with high drive, it is easier and you can use that drive in many more situations. But even with dogs where that drive is not strong, but is there, if it has been nurtured, you can use it in some situations. But whatever the strength of drive, it has to be there genetically anyway.

You can nurture a seed to sprout and become a tree or a bush or plant or whatever its genetic makeup dictates what it will be. You can't nurture a small plant seed to become a tree though.

Hi Erny,

I first became interested in training as a teenager in the 70's, and selecting a puppy with drive was the essence. Until gaining some experience what to look for in a pup, we used to have someone who was experienced pick your puppy, take their word for it an off you go, and rarely were our puppy selectors wrong in their choices. As time evolved, you are correct that more explanations did come to the forefront how to do things along with many different types of drives which then I had never heard of from ball drive, food drive, prey drive etc etc, the drive list appears endless.

I think nowdays, with better training methods to develop drives, there is less black and white as there used to be years ago, where dogs were more harshly assessed as being a good prospect or not. Many a time I remember someone leaving the training field in tears having been told their dog hasn't got it where perhaps today something positive could have been found in the same dogs with the advances in training concepts???.

My meaning of "device" as such is the process/method as a whole I was referring to

[Erny]

As time evolved, you are correct that more explanations did come to the forefront how to do things along with many different types of drives which then I had never heard of from ball drive, food drive, prey drive etc etc, the drive list appears endless.

Agree with you here, Longcoat. It was pretty much defence drive; pack drive; and/or prey drive. Prey drive has been disected into a few divisions that I never used by way of terminology either. Once I understood what prey drive was about, conceptually speaking, I think to me it was fairly clear for my purposes what aspect of "prey drive" was desired for what purpose.

I seem to recall that it was the USA folks who began the trend of breaking "prey drive" down to multi-facited drives. All part of the one, but each a different phase of it. And I guess the purpose for that might have been to be able to use the written word to a faceless audience by way of explanation of training aspects. I'm only surmising that from the small descriptive break-down of terms came others who then branched off with their own terminologies. Break-downs of break-downs, so to speak. I too look at it sometimes and wonder at how many 'drives' came from one.

This is just my own thoughts and theories on how the terminologies evolved to what they've become today and I do become a bit concerned that they'll get so watered down to lose their true meaning and essence if we're not careful.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Erny

[Longcoat]

Sometimes to me, the exercises used to intitiate vigor (drive) in modern training systems seems like a device to energise dogs that don't really have the natural desires if that makes sense to anyone , but fortunately there appears to be many well knowledged people here on these drive topics and in time I will no doubt learn something. Some very interesting concepts in this thread

I’m no expert but with Annie it's been about using her natural desires and channelling the drive into something more useful. So giving her an outlet for that drive. Annie has great drive but used to be obsessed with moving objects – animals, birds, bikes, cars etc – but now through drive training she gets drive satisfaction from her ball/toys instead. Still working on certain birds though lol...

That's for sure kayla1, you do redirect drives into useful work. Annie sounds like a great dog and is what we would call a drivey dog in general........although those drives do have their moments of frustration

[Longcoat]

Sorry, I know I said I had bowed out, but here I am again.

I question whether you can train "in drive" with corrections. Everyone I've ever spoken to about it has said that corrections suppress drive. Furthermore, I strongly suspect that a "correction" to a dog in drive is not actually punishing to that dog at that moment. Someone was telling me their GSD needed corrections at high levels of drive to make sure it didn't go over the edge and do the wrong thing when in such a state that someone could get hurt. I find it difficult to believe that they mean anything to him other than a no reward marker. Or an interruptor, maybe. It doesn't slow him down in the least. Punishments inhibit drivey behaviour. People like to cite dogs that run through barbed wire fences. I seriously doubt that barbed wire is much of a punishment at that moment. I've been reading a book about the biological effects of stress. It's very interesting, but essentially the body barely feels pain when under extreme physical stress. A lion chasing a zebra across the savanna is considered to be under extreme physical stress in this context.

Here's my mother's Boxer/Kelpie cross barely in control as she performs a sit for a toss of the toy. She is a complete nutter. She'll work for praise or fetch. Nothing else! She responds to rewards by becoming overly excited and goofy. It is very difficult to teach her anything new. My mum "discovered" drive training in a desperate attempt to teach this dog... something. Anything. She calls it reward training.

Correction based training is very "old school", works well in general obedience and provides good reliability, but can transform what was a potentially great working dog into a couch potato. I made that mistake years ago with my first GSD who was a good drivey dog and achieved ultra obedience with him, but we would go to the park and throw the ball and he would just stand there an look at it???. In the backyard at home, he loved the ball, away from home, he wouldn't chase anything and wasn't game from learning that a correction was coming. To cut a long story short, it took a lot of time to re- energise some drive and spirit on the field and undo what overcorrection had caused. On a send out, he would stop midway and look over his shoulder at me........like asking "is this what you want me to do, is it ok"

Redirection of drive energy in my experience works far better than corrective training to maintain workability, not that I am adverse to a correction when needed, but I am a firm believer that over correction will definitely suppress the dog or weak corrections can agitate the dog and increase drive especially if the drive is aggression based.

ETA by "corrections" I mean something that is perceived by the human to be a punishment for the dog.

[Longcoat]

As time evolved, you are correct that more explanations did come to the forefront how to do things along with many different types of drives which then I had never heard of from ball drive, food drive, prey drive etc etc, the drive list appears endless.

Agree with you here, Longcoat. It was pretty much defence drive; pack drive; and/or prey drive. Prey drive has been disected into a few divisions that I never used by way of terminology either. Once I understood what prey drive was about, conceptually speaking, I think to me it was fairly clear for my purposes what aspect of "prey drive" was desired for what purpose.

I seem to recall that it was the USA folks who began the trend of breaking "prey drive" down to multi-facited drives. All part of the one, but each a different phase of it. And I guess the purpose for that might have been to be able to use the written word to a faceless audience by way of explanation of training aspects. I'm only surmising that from the small descriptive break-down of terms came others who then branched off with their own terminologies. Break-downs of break-downs, so to speak. I too look at it sometimes and wonder at how many 'drives' came from one.

This is just my own thoughts and theories on how the terminologies evolved to what they've become today and I do become a bit concerned that they'll get so watered down to lose their true meaning and essence if we're not careful.

A perfect drive summary Erny............the breakdowns creating further breakdowns of what we originally knew as just a "drivey" dog became somewhat confusing for me anyway It was the US too, I remember reading some magazines and trying to digest it all