Seita Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 Very well said Staranais! To be honest I don't think I could tell the difference between dogs trained in different drives (food/prey) if I look at the end result which is what you are asking Corvus. But I can certainly tell what a dog looks like that has been trained to utelise even some elements of it's natural drive. I think to try and answer what you are looking for is - a dog trained using it's natural drives (whether that's food, pack, prey/play etc) will have a look of enthusiasm, eagerness, speed, attentiveness and I think you will see a dog that is really wired and ready/keen to respond in an instant. You don't see this in a dog that isn't trained utelising it's natural drives as much, a dog that isn't being trained with any real form of drive work tends to be sloppy, a bit slower, not generally as attentive, they may still do all the commands and possibly even score well but you don't tend to see as much enthusiasm and energy in them. These descriptions are based on dogs I've trained, my current dog has a strong prey drive and is trained with toys and tugs etc, my previous dog had a high pack drive but I didn't really build on it too much and she was an average working dog with none of the real enthusiasm that my current girl has. The dog before that was even worse, he had high food drive but training with food was not really done at that time so he was trained with a lot of compulsion and not much else, needless to say he pretty much shut off when we walked into a ring, there was none of the things I described about a dog trained in drive with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) That was a great, succinct summary of drive, Staranais. You only need to characterise what an adrenalised dog looks like. Edited January 15, 2010 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 (edited) Changed my mind. Edited January 15, 2010 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If you want to know if your dog is in drive, simply look at the eyes. The higher the state of drive and arousal the larger the pupils. It is the animal's motivational state...Staranais put it very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 If you want to know if your dog is in drive, simply look at the eyes. The higher the state of drive and arousal the larger the pupils. But that can hold equally for fear. I've seen a dog's pupils dilate the moment before it made an aggressive move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 If you want to know if your dog is in drive, simply look at the eyes. The higher the state of drive and arousal the larger the pupils. But that can hold equally for fear. I've seen a dog's pupils dilate the moment before it made an aggressive move. Because a dog displaying aggression can be in drive too, just a 'negative' one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 That was a great, succinct summary of drive, Staranais. You only need to characterise what an adrenalised dog looks like. Oooh, is there a prize? Lifted straight from my 2nd year vet science physiology notes, release of adrenaline tends to produce: * dilation of pupils * faster breathing * faster heartrate * heightened awareness * vasoconstriction of skin, vasodilation of skeletal muscle * glucose mobilisation from the liver * gut stasis * hypertension (higher blood pressure) * splenic contraction * sodium retention by the kidneys * increase in sphincter tone Your mileage may vary in trying to observe some of these things in your dog during a training session, of course. Unless you can hook your dog up to a blood pressure monitor, catheter for blood sampling, etc, and then get it into drive! As for the fearful dog, I'd personally say a dog that was adrenalised and fearful was also in "drive", just not in a positive drive, as Huski says. What I mean by that is that, in my opinion, the physiological state is similar (fight/flight/chase arousal created by the release of adrenaline by the sympathetic nervous system) so I'd still say the dog was in "drive". The mental processes that trigger the drive, and the emotional state that go along with the drive, may be very different, as will the dog's behaviour and body language. But you still see all the signs of adrenaline release, as outlined above (= drive). It's the common factor. Enough of this for me, I promised myself I was only going to drop in to post once and here I am responding to things. I'm off to train my dog! Hope I made some sense to someone, whether or not you agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2010 Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 If you want to know if your dog is in drive, simply look at the eyes. The higher the state of drive and arousal the larger the pupils. But that can hold equally for fear. I've seen a dog's pupils dilate the moment before it made an aggressive move. Because a dog displaying aggression can be in drive too, just a 'negative' one. Sorry, kind of failed to make a valid point in that one... It's a bit of a big deal if you're using signals that can be present in both a positive state of mind and a negative state to tell you that you are training in drive. I'm not suggesting that you wouldn't know the difference, just that it's not specific enough for the purposes of training. If you linked it with the other things I mentioned earlier, though, you might be onto a winner. The ears change orientation when a dog is aggressive or fearful, and that's not all that changes. This thread is getting jumbled at every turn. I was attempting to get to the bottom of what a dog training "in drive" looked like, but it seems people are resistant to the idea that it can look like anything in particular. This is my exact issue with the terminology. Obviously there are lots of situations in which a dog can be adrenalised, or "in drive", some of them good and some of them bad, some of them a lower level and some of them so high the dog can't even think anymore. Yet I get the impression that when people talk about training "in drive" they are not just talking about an adrenalised dog. They are talking about a specific level of arousal. That's what I was trying to get at in the beginning. The large variation in what people have posted as a dog "in drive" really 'drives' home just how this term can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Until someone can define exactly what is meant by "in drive" from a training perspective, there will be endless communication problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 I've actually found this thread very interesting and informative (even if you have found it frustrating corvus) so thank you to everyone else who has posted photos/videos and explanations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Sorry, kind of failed to make a valid point in that one...It's a bit of a big deal if you're using signals that can be present in both a positive state of mind and a negative state to tell you that you are training in drive. I'm not suggesting that you wouldn't know the difference, just that it's not specific enough for the purposes of training. If you linked it with the other things I mentioned earlier, though, you might be onto a winner. The ears change orientation when a dog is aggressive or fearful, and that's not all that changes. My only "point" was that a dog displaying aggression can be working in a negative drive (i.e. defense drive). I didn't say that the signs or body language are always identical, but both can be going through the drive motor pattern i.e. - reacting to a stimulus, going into drive initialisation, drive peak and getting drive satisfaction. This thread is getting jumbled at every turn. I was attempting to get to the bottom of what a dog training "in drive" looked like, but it seems people are resistant to the idea that it can look like anything in particular. This is my exact issue with the terminology. Obviously there are lots of situations in which a dog can be adrenalised, or "in drive", some of them good and some of them bad, some of them a lower level and some of them so high the dog can't even think anymore. Yet I get the impression that when people talk about training "in drive" they are not just talking about an adrenalised dog. They are talking about a specific level of arousal. That's what I was trying to get at in the beginning. The large variation in what people have posted as a dog "in drive" really 'drives' home just how this term can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Until someone can define exactly what is meant by "in drive" from a training perspective, there will be endless communication problems. There have been many posters who have outlined what they think a dog training in drive looks like. I'm not resistant to the idea that it looks like anything in particular, I know it does. Others may have their own opinion, but I don't know how much more specific you can get past a video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Enough of this for me, I promised myself I was only going to drop in to post once and here I am responding to things. I'm off to train my dog! Hope I made some sense to someone, whether or not you agree with me. Hi Staranais - as usual, you continue to articulate well. You make sense, to be sure . As do a number of other posters in this thread . OT : Hope all is well with you and your dog, and that you continue to enjoy your training adventures and your Vet study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 (edited) Corvus: But that can hold equally for fear. I've seen a dog's pupils dilate the moment before it made an aggressive move. Like I said Corvus, Drive is the animal's motivated state. Corvus: This thread is getting jumbled at every turn. I was attempting to get to the bottom of what a dog training "in drive" looked like Corvus it most certainly doesn't look like the video you posted. Edited January 16, 2010 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaglelover:) Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 (edited) I wish I could show some video footage of the quarantine Detector Dogs at Hanrob! When I went there to see their failed Labs and Beagles I could clearly see the difference between play drive and just playing. My Lab loves playing with any toy, however he failed because he wasnt keen on working for a toy, which required him to focus and concentrate on working first The way I see it is, that most dogs would like to play with toys, BUT a lot of dogs will not work for toys! The dogs that passed; were scaling fences to get to their "dummy" (rolled up face towel) which they placed high in the fence, to see their motivation to get the reward (and yes, all dogs got the reward out of the fence). When they were in training, as soon as the working coat went on, they would spin and bark when the trainer would show the dummy to them before each training session. Some drive exercises they showed me, were placing the toy in long grass without the dog seeing where it was placed and the dog would have to "hunt out" the dummy. Now the difference is that my Lab would be more then happy to play with that dummy if it was handed to him, however to hunt for it under massive distraction is a whole new level of drive. In my opinion hunt drive is more important then toy or food drive. If the dog is willing to hunt for the reward under distraction, you might have yourself a high drive dog. For example there was one Beagle at Hanrob that I saw that was hunting for ONE piece of dried dog treat in a massive hall with two other dogs in the hall. The little treat was hiding in a BOOK!!! And yes that little Beagle (god bless it's little heart) found the treat after 10 minutes of hunting! Now that's what I call DRIVE If you really what to see drive, go to an Airport and see the Beagles hunting for quarantine matter under massive distraction, or the Labs sniffing out drugs. They would be the best examples of food and toy drive!! These guys have been doing drive exercises since they have been pups. Their toy or food is why they go to work everyday, and it takes a special dog to be able to work, day in day out for 6 or 7 years and never get bored of hunting. This is why so many dogs do not make the cut, as their drive is simply not at working level! My Lab that failed from Hanrob, thanks me everyday from saving him from working life. :D Working just wasn't for him Edited January 16, 2010 by Beaglelover:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 16, 2010 Author Share Posted January 16, 2010 Corvus: This thread is getting jumbled at every turn. I was attempting to get to the bottom of what a dog training "in drive" looked like Corvus it most certainly doesn't look like the video you posted. Just to make it abundantly clear, the video I posted was not in my eyes a dog "in drive", which was why I posted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I think it's hard to answer your question properly because every dog is also different in it's levels of drive. Not all dogs have a high level of drive so them in drive will look different to a dog that is bursting with drive. Perhaps compare a Working line bred Malanois to a Maltese and get them both into play/prey drive and you will see that drive will look different with both. Staranais explained the physical characteristics of drive very well... you just need to understand that flight, fight, play, food are all different drives and can result in the same physcial characteristics. Perhaps some more thorough research is required if we can't seem to "show" you what you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 I think it's hard to answer your question properly because every dog is also different in it's levels of drive. Not all dogs have a high level of drive so them in drive will look different to a dog that is bursting with drive. Perhaps compare a Working line bred Malanois to a Maltese and get them both into play/prey drive and you will see that drive will look different with both. That's an interesting point in light of recent posts about what an adrenalised dog looks like. It seems there is no straight answer. I just think there should be when it's a term used in such a specific context. Otherwise, what's the point? I could say my dog is in drive and everyone would just have to take my word for it. If it doesn't mean something specific to training, what's the use of it in training jargon? Staranais explained the physical characteristics of drive very well... you just need to understand that flight, fight, play, food are all different drives and can result in the same physcial characteristics. Perhaps some more thorough research is required if we can't seem to "show" you what you want? In the same physical characteristics... sure, in some aspects. But not so much in others. I'm assuming we can all tell the difference between a dog on the attack and a dog fleeing. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's the anticipation that matters, because I do believe that is what we're seeing and why it is the same for all different rewards. It's that high level of anticipation that goes hand in hand with an adrenalised state. Dog knows it's getting a top reward very soon. Much excitement and arousal ensues. Same way I bounce around when someone promises to take me to San Churros for a Spanish hot chocolate. I'm bowing out at this point. I feel I've learnt heaps and had a little epiphany along the way. Thanks to everyone that participated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) I have also read this with interest and learnt some things along the way. Edited January 18, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 From the weekend: Whippet in drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Is that Howard, PF? Gee he's gotten big! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) Is that Howard, PF? Gee he's gotten big! Yep, he's a big boy now.. 17 months old. How quickly it happens. :D Still waiting for him to grow a brain though Edited January 18, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now