Images Of Dogs "in Drive"

[Dova]

Dova - can you build on pack drive? This is about exemplifying your leadership. The Triangle of Temptation exercises are good for this.

I'll give that a go, thanks Erny, only been doing obedience a year so I'm always looking for help with something, Izzi will focus on me but only for a very short time, a minute, then it's back to "ho hum bored now" so I make all sessions short & as rewarding as possible.

Izzi changes completely when she's herding, now there's a dog with drive, she's totaly focused on the sheep & doing the job.

[Seita]

Just one thing that needs to be remembered here is that, with my girl for example, her drive has been channeled into working for me to achieve her reward. So she might look like she's just very focussed etc, which is why I posted the training videos as well as the final outcome.

Dogs have 3 primary positive drives (I'll leave rank, avoidance and flight out at the moment and concentrate on food, prey and pack), often a dog won't be working in just one drive at a time but most dogs will have a primary drive. An example is a dog chasing a cat or other animal, that dog is primarily in prey drive (chasing) but that dog is also probably in food drive (when it captures the prey it gets food) so it satisfies those drives.

Training in drive teaches the dog that it's handler is the key to achieve drive satisfaction, the first stage of training in drive is building drive for something whether thats food or prey (now I'm using the word prey here which means chasing a toy so you can refer to it as play drive if you like), once you have the dog to a good level of drive for that thing, then you start adding control and focus so teaching the dog that to achieve the reward it needs to follow the handlers commands. The drive building is the key part of this method as it teaches the dog to use everything it's got - energy, adrenaline, phsycial power etc to get it's reward which ultimately ends with a very alert, very confident, very reliable dog. Continuing with the example of a dog chasing something, has anyone ever had a dog take off after something and when you call it you get no response? Well that dog is in drive and when a dog is in drive it ignores things like noise and often pain as well, that is probably the key element of training in drive.

Another example with my dog, Ella is fear agressive she cannot tolerate being near other dogs and will snap at them out of fear if they are too close. But when I ask her to go into prey drive she focusses so much on me that she doesn't see or hear the other dogs and will heel right in front of a lunging dog and pay no attention to it... out of drive I wouldn't get within 2 meters of that dog. To me this is one of the most important aspects of training in drive.

Sorry if I've rambled a bit! Perhaps someone can convince K9Force to come in here and explain drive a bit better - there is a good article on his website about drive and how it works for those who are interested in the chemical reaction that goes on in dog's heads when they are in drive.

[arrow]

Thank you everyone for the illustrations. It's given me lots to reflect on. Doing basic obedience classes, the only "drive" I heard about had something to do with where you parked your car.

[Seita]

Thank you everyone for the illustrations. It's given me lots to reflect on. Doing basic obedience classes, the only "drive" I heard about had something to do with where you parked your car.

Traditional obedience training is more about supressing drive than building and using it unfortunately. I hadn't heard of drive before I got Ella either.

[ness]

I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

[bedazzledx2]

Yeah Huski....got that! For the record I have been in the obedience ring for over 16 years with multiple dogs attaining UD and O Ch, HIT, Royal, State and National wins under my belt and a couple of 200 scores. I do know about remote rewards and duration Each dog is different and both me and my dog like to play between exercises and it keeps him up for the duration of the 8 exercises in UD. Back chaining has meant that he is also rewarded by the anticipation of getting to do the next exercise. You may find you will need some type of motivation other than food when you get into the ring and previously you said you would be leaving food outside the ring as her reward . The point is that you need to train this part of the training game before you run into problems in the ring. Perhaps you won't need to and that will be terrific and I wish you the best of luck.

If you are training with food of course you need to make it rewarding and exciting for your dog not simply exchanging food....that's what we call 'posting a letter' In your post with the video you said that Daisy was in food drive. As I saw it she was working a very short exercise in anticipation of her dinner and that was the precedent for happy work. Not many dogs wouldn't offer you something you had trained for their dinner! My BC is long retired but will still go though his repertoire for his dinner :D

Thus far I have seen various images/videos of dogs (my own included) in various states of arousal but prey drive?

Nice work Seita She is engaged and happy and willing to play with you. Lovely

I don't see any particular 'drive' being displayed other than play training or food reward in any of the videos on this thread so far. There are some examples of dogs working and training on my youtube site

but they were mainly put there to show distraction training. I wouldn't call any of these dogs in a particular drive....that's just the way we train. Whatever turns your dog on is used as a motivator/reward but training goes way beyond that. My dog is very very food motivated but of course you can't take food into the ring (nor can you leave it outside close to the ring here...against the rules) so I've had to transfer the food reward to a play reward without a toy. In other words a one on one game with me. I'll video that soon and put it up.

Bedazzled, I'm not sure we can put food or toys right outside the ring here either.

All the dogs I know who train in drive with remote rewards at trials do so with the reward quite a distance away. It's all in how you train it Drive is maintained in the ring and in between exercises, because that is how you train it. You can see in Seita's trialling videos that Ella maintains that same focus and drive in between exercises without Seita having to do much with her.

Food is a drive, and you can see the difference between a dog in food drive and a dog who is simply working for food exchange.

[Seita]

I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

I think the reason is to engage the dog with the handler which involves pack drive as well as prey drive reward, it teaches the dog that the handler controls the reward and that all good things come from the handler. I throw my toys and things to the side now but not as a reward I throw them as a distraction so she learns to still look at me to get the release word to go get it and bring it back to me for the worlds greatest game (in her eyes).

Just another thought on the remote reward thingy which I forgot to mention before. I leave my drive reward with my chair/crate etc so it doesn't go anywhere near the rings, my dog knows it's there and the moment I leave the ring we run to it and have a big game of tug as a reward. Everytime I trigger her into drive in the ring (my working command) she knows she's going to get paid, and after every exercise when I say "yes" she is reminded that she is going to get paid. In some of my videos you can see Ella head to the edge of the ring in search of her reward because she's heard me say yes and she knows she'll get paid soon but she is anticipating it in those situations cos her 'pay day' reward is ok!!

[ness]

Here you go - modified "prey drive".

[bedazzledx2]

Yep perfect example of the remote reward Seita :D That's what we do as well. Sometimes the car and gear is parked a fair way from the ring so rewards are really remote!!!

I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

I think the reason is to engage the dog with the handler which involves pack drive as well as prey drive reward, it teaches the dog that the handler controls the reward and that all good things come from the handler. I throw my toys and things to the side now but not as a reward I throw them as a distraction so she learns to still look at me to get the release word to go get it and bring it back to me for the worlds greatest game (in her eyes).

Just another thought on the remote reward thingy which I forgot to mention before. I leave my drive reward with my chair/crate etc so it doesn't go anywhere near the rings, my dog knows it's there and the moment I leave the ring we run to it and have a big game of tug as a reward. Everytime I trigger her into drive in the ring (my working command) she knows she's going to get paid, and after every exercise when I say "yes" she is reminded that she is going to get paid. In some of my videos you can see Ella head to the edge of the ring in search of her reward because she's heard me say yes and she knows she'll get paid soon but she is anticipating it in those situations cos her 'pay day' reward is ok!!

[huski]

Yeah Huski....got that! For the record I have been in the obedience ring for over 16 years with multiple dogs attaining UD and O Ch, HIT, Royal, State and National wins under my belt and a couple of 200 scores. I do know about remote rewards and duration Each dog is different and both me and my dog like to play between exercises and it keeps him up for the duration of the 8 exercises in UD. Back chaining has meant that he is also rewarded by the anticipation of getting to do the next exercise. You may find you will need some type of motivation other than food when you get into the ring and previously you said you would be leaving food outside the ring as her reward . The point is that you need to train this part of the training game before you run into problems in the ring. Perhaps you won't need to and that will be terrific and I wish you the best of luck.

Bedazzled, I certainly realise how experienced you are when it comes to obedience comp, so don't get me wrong, I think inexperienced newbies like myself have a lot to learn from people like yourself

I only described how we would use remote rewards because you made a point of saying that you can't have food rewards just outside the ring. When I said I would leave food for Daisy outside the ring, I didn't mean literally outside. I meant a distance away, like next to her crate.

I also use her pack drive when training, but when we finally do start trialling she will work the entire time in food drive. Sure I will play/praise her in between exercises, but I see no need to train her to work purely for play/praise when I can train her to work in food drive with a remote reward.

I also recognise that her breed is not one that you see in obedience often and that she's not a dog that will give me all she's got purely for play/praise. I've seen working dogs with exceptionally high pack drives, they will flip over just to get a pat, Daisy is just not one of them. She's a beagle and if I didn't train her primarily in food drive she will quickly lose interest in favour of scenting.

Training in drive is not just about the reward as Seita's excellent post above described, but trainnig your dog in a heightened state of arousal, using a method that gives them a chemical reward (a release of endorphins).

If you are training with food of course you need to make it rewarding and exciting for your dog not simply exchanging food....that's what we call 'posting a letter' In your post with the video you said that Daisy was in food drive. As I saw it she was working a very short exercise in anticipation of her dinner and that was the precedent for happy work. Not many dogs wouldn't offer you something you had trained for their dinner! My BC is long retired but will still go though his repertoire for his dinner :D

It was just an example I posted of what a dog in food drive looks like, by my definition. That she's only working for a short period of time and that just about any dog would display the same behaviour for it's dinner (she'd already had her brekky when I filmed that this morning, so it was just a treat I'd dropped in her food bowl) isn't the point. The reason I shared the clip was to demonstrate what a dog in drive looks like to me - alert, highly aroused, focused, etc.

A dog in drive is going through a motor pattern in their brain. They react to a trigger that gets them into drive and they learn to respond to commands in drive to achieve drive satisfaction. The clip I posted of Daisy is the most basic example of a dog complying to a command in drive to get that satisfaction.

Here's another clip of what I consider to be an example of drive;

Edited January 10, 2010 by huski

[Kavik]

I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

I don't do the 'proper' training in drive with Kaos for this reason. All of my dogs prefer to chase a thrown toy rather than tug, Kaos is the only one who will tug and he will only tug in the backyard, not at training. While I would love for Kaos to tug so I could reward close work with a toy, I have found in agility it is very useful to throw a toy for a reward, both for rewarding at a distance to the handler and to reward movement in a particular direction (rather than rewarding a stationary position). Having the dog anticipate that its reward is going to go a certain direction at speed helps to build their enthusiasm and speed.

Susan Garrett's 2 x 2 weave training is all about this - using a thrown toy (placement of reward) to establish a reward line. Very useful in all weave training and in training distance and sending exercises.

[ness]

Yep Kavik my youngster was taught her weaving by the 2x2 method and I would never teach it any other way.

[arawnhaus]

Corvus, drive is not defined by just body language alone. As I said in the other thread, its more about the desperation displayed by the dog to satisfy its prey drive. You almost sense the dog would walk over hot coals to acheive it. I have not sensed that before any other form of training.

I am not claiming one method is better than another though, just trying to explain how to spot a dog working in prey drive. There is a controlled desperation evident, one that is not easily distracted.

Good post, corvus this is true of all dogs, body language is the outer sign to recognise when identifying drives but also what the dog is working from inside. For example the dog in the pic i posted, was caught between barking and lunging.

[Kavik]

Yep Kavik my youngster was taught her weaving by the 2x2 method and I would never teach it any other way.

I am in the middle of watching the 2 x 2 DVD - WOW! is all I will say! May give it a try with the next dog. Certainly has prompted me to do more work with a smaller number of poles to proof entries etc.

[corvus]

Corvus, drive is not defined by just body language alone. As I said in the other thread, its more about the desperation displayed by the dog to satisfy its prey drive. You almost sense the dog would walk over hot coals to acheive it. I have not sensed that before any other form of training.

I am not claiming one method is better than another though, just trying to explain how to spot a dog working in prey drive. There is a controlled desperation evident, one that is not easily distracted.

Yeah, but Dogdude, anything a dog is feeling, anticipating, or intending is evident in its body language. That's what body language is for, and it's why social species are so much fun to work with. Incidentally, Kivi's recall was trained with high value food rewards. He comes at a gallop and he'll do whatever is necessary to get there. At times, that has meant dodging dogs that are trying to tackle him, or yesterday it was leaving a fast and rough game of tug with me (thanks OH) and running about a hundred metres to my partner whom he could not actually see. I've got a YouTube video up of him getting taken out by Erik when he only just gets going and he gets up and keeps running. He gets tired towards the end and drifts a bit, but he's a very easily flattened dog.

Huski, I keep the movements to Kivi's level of motivation. When we get out into the dog park he often gets a lot more animated and I follow suit with bigger and faster movements. If I move it faster before he's in the mood for it he'll disengage and wander off. The whole point is that he has fun, so I don't push him.

I have a recent video of Erik clicker training in which he looks much the same as these dogs working in drive, but iMovie is playing silly beggars and refusing to acknowledge it's existence. Hopefully I can get it to work soon.

[Cosmolo]

Bedazzled- what would you class as 'prey drive'?

[Erny]

Huski, I keep the movements to Kivi's level of motivation. When we get out into the dog park he often gets a lot more animated and I follow suit with bigger and faster movements. If I move it faster before he's in the mood for it he'll disengage and wander off. The whole point is that he has fun, so I don't push him.

If you want to trigger drive though, the movements need to be such that they immitate that of a prey animal. The movements you put into the prey item (tug) don't have to be big, but the energy you use to excite your dog could be higher. In the video clip you showed as an example of your tug game with Kivi, I don't think I much saw you move your two feet from the ground. I saw a dog move into a little bit of drive (beginnings of), but then flattened out. I'm not sure (as there was no sound with the clip I watched) but perhaps as soon as he got into 'tug' you gave him a command to 'give'? That's what your body language seemed to be saying to me, anyway - and if I can pick that up, sure as eggs Kivi can too. It is as though you are saying to him "no sooner are you into it then I will interrupt it". Let him get into it and be a bit excited about it yourself. Reward his biggest/best tug efforts by letting him win the tug. You mention that he flattens out pretty quickly, and if that's the case I'd allow him to enjoy the game a bit more before you get him off the tug. Get him going and really put some high energy into it yourself and quit before he does. I noticed in the clip you showed that he quit first, then you did. It needs to be the opposite way around.

That's assuming you want to train in this way and really get those heightened results, regardless of whether you are in your back yard or down at the park. If you're happy to do what you're doing though, the way you do it, then that's ok .

Edited January 10, 2010 by Erny

[kayla1]

Corvus, drive is not defined by just body language alone. As I said in the other thread, its more about the desperation displayed by the dog to satisfy its prey drive. You almost sense the dog would walk over hot coals to acheive it. I have not sensed that before any other form of training.

I am not claiming one method is better than another though, just trying to explain how to spot a dog working in prey drive. There is a controlled desperation evident, one that is not easily distracted.

This is what I see in Annie when I train her in drive – that desperation, she would do absolutely anything to get the ball. The adrenalin is pumping and it takes all her effort to control herself and work before getting the reward. When she is working, it's only me, her and the ball - nothing else exists. For example we've just started recalls and she explodes out of the sit/drop position so fast that she comes barrelling into me (we’re working on that!). TID allows her to achieve a level of intensity that she otherwise wouldn’t.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Yep Kavik my youngster was taught her weaving by the 2x2 method and I would never teach it any other way.

I am in the middle of watching the 2 x 2 DVD - WOW! is all I will say! May give it a try with the next dog. Certainly has prompted me to do more work with a smaller number of poles to proof entries etc.

If you've got a dog who can deal with shaping you can retrain using that method.

[kayla1]

I went back and read the other "prey" drive thread you linked earlier Seita and I found it interesting that its never recommended to use a ball throw as a prey reward because your some how disconnected from the reward process. Not sure I totally understand the reasoning behind this especially when you are still part of the reward process (well if the dog thinks the game is about returning with the item as fast as it can so it might restart the game rather than running off when the toy is chased after). Very interesting though and I appreciated going back over some of what was contained in that thread.

I've read that too, but using balls as a reward is working well for my dogs.