Allergies And Prednisolone

[Danois]

White Eagle - I know too well what the consequences of long term pred use can be. I lost my last dane about 16 months ago. He was on large doses due to immune mediated issues as well as another drug. He developed pancreatitis. From what I can remember, that would have been treatable but having to come off the pred threw up new issues and he was given his wings.

I knew that pred was the most sensible choice for Boo's skin last week and I trust my vet implicitly but it actually took a lot for me to agree with that treatment and then to give the first tablet.

[stormie]

That reminds me, about a month ago, after a dinner meal a bit too fatty, Orbit got pretty sick - vomiting and just generally very flat. He never had a temperature and his liver enzymes were normal, but the way he presented and also with the fatty meal, we put it down to an acute bout of pancreatitis. He was only in hospital for 2 nights and was pretty much back to normal within a few days, but it was still pretty worrying to see him so flat. My housemates dog was up sick the night before, so it could also have been a tummy bug - guess we'll never know!

He's chunked on a bit of weight too with his latest meat delivery so he's on a bit of a diet at the moment now too.

[zayda_asher]

Just an update for any one interested:

We are now on a full elimination diet, as it became apparent that an adverse food reaction may be involved in Asher's reactions (he had no previous AFRs). We've been on it for a day and a half, and we've had one more small reaction: all controllable with an extra antihist. So there is obviously something there, be it a "proper" AFR, or a food "cross reacting" with the atopy as they have found some do. The shit thing is that the only thing we could use for elimination for him is stuff Zayda is allergic to - this is all my nightmares coming true!! I'm now having to do things like colour code food containers and make Asher eat on a sheet so I can pick up the bits he misses so Zayda doesn't get them... ARGH! Looks like we may have to go through the intradermal testing with him again too, as our current derm (who we've worked with before, but is not our regular one who is on leave - never hurts to have other in put though) thinks that we can retry him on ASIT, at a much lower dose, even though he has reacted in the past. Bit scary, as he doesn't do so flash with anesthetics. We've had a bit of a staph flare in the last few days, so we'll see how he is a week after being on the elim diet, if its not settled it will be off to the vet for us for ABs. Of course, we're off his supplements that normally control his staph, so this could be an on going issue for a while.

Good news is no Pred for now!

Edit: spelling

Edited January 29, 2010 by zayda_asher

[zayda_asher]

Just an update for any one interested:

We are now on a full elimination diet, as it became apparent that an adverse food reaction may be involved in Asher's reactions (he had no previous AFRs). We've been on it for a day and a half, and we've had one more small reaction: all controllable with an extra antihist.

I should add that we were on a limited ingredient diet for a few days before that, before we said "yep lets do elimination" and only had two small, controllable reactions... so it was more than just a couple of days on elim that make me think there is definitely something food related.

Good news is tonight's meal marks 2.5 days and we had no reaction!

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Hey Stormie - I think what Orbit's experience on the cyclosporin is the same as Benson had - great on high dose of it but once going down to the maintenance level of the drug you need a boost with the pred, right?!?!

Pity the antihistmines didn't do much, some dogs just really don't get benefit from them. First Time Puppy Owner had that experience with her dog, but found the atopica worked very well in their case... so it might be worth dropping her a PM to chat about the atopica as another potential treatment.

I know what you are going through WEagle - antihistamines are pretty much useless for my boy. Which ones have you tried? We have tried all antihistamines bar 1 - polaramine, seems it's become really hard to get in QLD.

Atopica is a good drug but extremely expensive. From memory $540 for a mth's supply. Benson was an absolute mess when my vet put him on atopica and it was a god send to get him to a reasonable skin condition before we were able to see a derm and do him intradermal testing and start the immunotherapy trial.

His immunotherapy is going ok - it keeps him relatively stable, but he is still getting hot spots still and still chews and scratches a lot with having 2 x 0.35ml injections per wk. We are see the derm again on the 17th of Feb and will see what he recommends then cause even though he is itchy, his overall coat condition is slightly better since doing the weekly washing with pyohex and then a wash (no rinse) of Alpha Keri Oil (40mls in one side of a dual hyrdobath tub of water).

Will be asking if we should again increase or perhaps it's time to get him low dose pred too

Just an update for any one interested:

We are now on a full elimination diet, as it became apparent that an adverse food reaction may be involved in Asher's reactions (he had no previous AFRs). We've been on it for a day and a half, and we've had one more small reaction: all controllable with an extra antihist.

I should add that we were on a limited ingredient diet for a few days before that, before we said "yep lets do elimination" and only had two small, controllable reactions... so it was more than just a couple of days on elim that make me think there is definitely something food related.

Good news is tonight's meal marks 2.5 days and we had no reaction!

What are you feeding Asher? Any guess as to what meat he is reacting to?

Great news about the number of days with out a reaction - poor boy they sound absolutely horrible

Edited February 4, 2010 by First Time Puppy Owner

[stormie]

Hey Stormie - I think what Orbit's experience on the cyclosporin is the same as Benson had - great on high dose of it but once going down to the maintenance level of the drug you need a boost with the pred, right?!?!

Yep that's him! It's become a bit of a balancing act in a way, but I'm leaning towards just accepting daily doses of cyclosporin. 1 day off it and he flares right up and needs pred again. I tried to get him down to maint dose recently, which resulted in a huge flare up with him needing daily pred for a few days. Back on the daily cyclosporin now and he's been 3 days without pred.

Have you looked into sourcing it from a compounding pharmacy? Orbit needs approx 200mg/day and a box of 10 100mg Atopica is $80 cost price; that would last us 5 days which works out at about $1600 for 100 days. I get the liquid cyclosporin from a compounding pharm, that presents in a 200mg/ml 100ml bottle. Lasts us about 100 days and it costs me $610 (cost price).

[zayda_asher]

What are you feeding Asher? Any guess as to what meat he is reacting to?

Great news about the number of days with out a reaction - poor boy they sound absolutely horrible

Thanks... its been a horror... we are up to 4 days without a reaction! woohoo! Such a relief! Still have a minor staph flare, but nothing unmanageable.

We're feeding him beef and lamb, which he's never had because Zayda is allergic to them... can't go any of the normal novels, because that's what he's grown up on cos of ZeeZee So beef and lamb with lentils and emu oil for EFAs

ETA: we might have to start getting our antihistamines from a compounding pharm... have to see what is in the ones the derm can get us first...

Edited February 4, 2010 by zayda_asher

[zayda_asher]

Oh, I forgot to say: I don't actually think it is the meat source in his case, he's always been ok after his breakfast which is meat and bone. Its after his evening meal, which has the "extras" (veg, yogurt, supplements) that he's been having reactions, so I think it is something in that group.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Hey Stormie - I think what Orbit's experience on the cyclosporin is the same as Benson had - great on high dose of it but once going down to the maintenance level of the drug you need a boost with the pred, right?!?!

Yep that's him! It's become a bit of a balancing act in a way, but I'm leaning towards just accepting daily doses of cyclosporin. 1 day off it and he flares right up and needs pred again. I tried to get him down to maint dose recently, which resulted in a huge flare up with him needing daily pred for a few days. Back on the daily cyclosporin now and he's been 3 days without pred.

Have you looked into sourcing it from a compounding pharmacy? Orbit needs approx 200mg/day and a box of 10 100mg Atopica is $80 cost price; that would last us 5 days ;) which works out at about $1600 for 100 days. I get the liquid cyclosporin from a compounding pharm, that presents in a 200mg/ml 100ml bottle. Lasts us about 100 days and it costs me $610 (cost price).

I thought so - at least cyclosporin isn't anywhere near as damaging long term. I am so glad though that you can get it so much cheaper, that's awesome!

We are currently trialing how we go with the immunotherapy but if we do go back on Atopica we will have to source it through a vet due to the insurance If I didn't have insurance though I would definitely never have even been able to give it a go, as I just would never have been able to afford it, so it would have been pred for Benson forever.

Refresh my memory did you do another intradermal on Orbee? Also did you try immuno?!?!

What are you feeding Asher? Any guess as to what meat he is reacting to?

Great news about the number of days with out a reaction - poor boy they sound absolutely horrible ;)

Thanks... its been a horror... we are up to 4 days without a reaction! woohoo! Such a relief! Still have a minor staph flare, but nothing unmanageable.

We're feeding him beef and lamb, which he's never had because Zayda is allergic to them... can't go any of the normal novels, because that's what he's grown up on cos of ZeeZee So beef and lamb with lentils and emu oil for EFAs

ETA: we might have to start getting our antihistamines from a compounding pharm... have to see what is in the ones the derm can get us first...

I know it's a bugger to do the sheet thing but if he doesn't react when eating beef and lamb - WOOHOO!

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Oh, I forgot to say: I don't actually think it is the meat source in his case, he's always been ok after his breakfast which is meat and bone. Its after his evening meal, which has the "extras" (veg, yogurt, supplements) that he's been having reactions, so I think it is something in that group.

Oh I see - well best of luck with the elim!!! God they are a pain huh?!? Hey have you finsihed Zayda's yet?

[zayda_asher]

I know it's a bugger to do the sheet thing but if he doesn't react when eating beef and lamb - WOOHOO!

I've spent 8 years avoiding beef and lamb like the plague... it feels so *wrong* And yeah, it is nerve wracking that one of us will stuff up and give the wrong dog the wrong thing... just a certain consistent stress "have I got the right container... " But yes, excellent that he is getting better... just cross your fingers we don't have to stay like this forever! Argh! lol

Oh I see - well best of luck with the elim!!! hug.gif God they are a pain huh?!? Hey have you finsihed Zayda's yet?

Thanks! ;) Zayda is about to go back onto a regular diet and we will reintro her supps one at a time to make sure there are no reactions to them... so yeah, just weaning one off and the other goes on - my house is so not normal!

Edited February 4, 2010 by zayda_asher

[stormie]

I thought so - at least cyclosporin isn't anywhere near as damaging long term. I am so glad though that you can get it so much cheaper, that's awesome!

We are currently trialing how we go with the immunotherapy but if we do go back on Atopica we will have to source it through a vet due to the insurance If I didn't have insurance though I would definitely never have even been able to give it a go, as I just would never have been able to afford it, so it would have been pred for Benson forever.

Refresh my memory did you do another intradermal on Orbee? Also did you try immuno?!?!

We didn't do intradermal - no way he could have made it through the drug with-holding time you need. We did the SPOT test and the HESKA test which both matched, so had immuno made up based on those results. He's onto the maintenance dosing now and we haven't really seen any improvement, hence why we went onto cyclosporin.

He does get inflamed gums from the cyclosporin which gives him slightly stinky breath, but I'd prefer that than the Hyper A symptoms from too much cortisone. We've been lucky in that he hasn't had too many major side effects from cortisone, mostly cause he's managed so well, but I do notice subtle changes when he gets longer breaks on it.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

I've spent 8 years avoiding beef and lamb like the plague... it feels so *wrong* And yeah, it is nerve wracking that one of us will stuff up and give the wrong dog the wrong thing... just a certain consistent stress "have I got the right container... " But yes, excellent that he is getting better... just cross your fingers we don't have to stay like this forever! Argh! lol

Oh I see - well best of luck with the elim!!! hug.gif God they are a pain huh?!? Hey have you finsihed Zayda's yet?

Thanks! Zayda is about to go back onto a regular diet and we will reintro her supps one at a time to make sure there are no reactions to them... so yeah, just weaning one off and the other goes on - my house is so not normal!

I bet it does! Do you write their names on the containers? Good luck with Zayda!!!

We didn't do intradermal - no way he could have made it through the drug with-holding time you need. We did the SPOT test and the HESKA test which both matched, so had immuno made up based on those results. He's onto the maintenance dosing now and we haven't really seen any improvement, hence why we went onto cyclosporin.

He does get inflamed gums from the cyclosporin which gives him slightly stinky breath, but I'd prefer that than the Hyper A symptoms from too much cortisone. We've been lucky in that he hasn't had too many major side effects from cortisone, mostly cause he's managed so well, but I do notice subtle changes when he gets longer breaks on it.

That's right - I remember now What a shame that the immuno had no effect for poor Orbee But at lease there is cyclosporin, even if it gives him a woofy smell ;)

You know I feel like I have just come in for a therapy session ;) AA = atopic's anonymous ;)

[zayda_asher]

I bet it does! Do you write their names on the containers? Good luck with Zayda!!!

Dude, they are colour coded! Asher has "bright red danger, go back!" containers for his beef and lamb! Everything else has big BEEF or LAMB signs written on it!!

You know I feel like I have just come in for a therapy session ;) AA = atopic's anonymous

I was just saying to another friend, who's dog is just in the process of being diagnosed, that we need to start a support group!! lol

[First Time Puppy Owner]

I was just saying to another friend, who's dog is just in the process of being diagnosed, that we need to start a support group!! lol

Hell yes!

[TerraNik]

Reading this thread is like therapy for me... We're really struggling with Jedi at the moment.

He has atopic dermatitis and had the ELISA and intradermal skin testing which both confirmed severe allergies to house dust, dust mites and food mites. The vet suspected food allergies as well because his atopic derm is so extreme but an elimination diet made no difference. By the time we saw the dermatologist (after trying EPO baths every 3-4 days, anti-histamines, supplements, etc etc) his scratching was so severe he had to wear a bucket and had to be physically restrained from scratching himself or he would chew himself and bleed and all his hair was falling out. So we started him on a short course of corticosteroids (day on, day off) while we waited for his immunotherapy to be made up. We're now up to Day 12 on the immunotherapy and we're really hoping it makes a difference... He has some really bad days still and has to have corticosteroids but we are avoiding them as much as we can. He looks awful at the moment though - quite nude. Thankfully being a Keeshond he had a lot of hair to start with so he has a few comb-overs

Edited February 4, 2010 by TerraNik

[sas]

I've been given the opportunity to try the Vet's All Natural Program, 6-8 weeks, anyone tried it?

[zayda_asher]

I've been given the opportunity to try the Vet's All Natural Program, 6-8 weeks, anyone tried it?

I haven't, but there was a lot of stuff in the products that was either things Zayda can't have or were iffy for us. It does look like a pretty decent product, and if you have no food allergies could be a good option. The one thing I would be careful of in general though is the flax, because anecdotal evidence on feeding / health lists seems to suggest that a lot of dogs, regardless of allergies, seem to do poorly and get the itchies with it (same with alfalfa). Although there's obviously plenty that are fine with it too, it would be something to consider if you did get more itchies on it though.

If you do try it, let us know how it goes.

[zayda_asher]

We're now up to Day 12 on the immunotherapy and we're really hoping it makes a difference...

Good luck with it, let us know how it goes... it is the glue that holds Zayda together, that is for sure!! I hope you get as good a response!

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Reading this thread is like therapy for me... We're really struggling with Jedi at the moment.

He has atopic dermatitis and had the ELISA and intradermal skin testing which both confirmed severe allergies to house dust, dust mites and food mites. The vet suspected food allergies as well because his atopic derm is so extreme but an elimination diet made no difference. By the time we saw the dermatologist (after trying EPO baths every 3-4 days, anti-histamines, supplements, etc etc) his scratching was so severe he had to wear a bucket and had to be physically restrained from scratching himself or he would chew himself and bleed and all his hair was falling out. So we started him on a short course of corticosteroids (day on, day off) while we waited for his immunotherapy to be made up. We're now up to Day 12 on the immunotherapy and we're really hoping it makes a difference... He has some really bad days still and has to have corticosteroids but we are avoiding them as much as we can. He looks awful at the moment though - quite nude. Thankfully being a Keeshond he had a lot of hair to start with so he has a few comb-overs ;)

I feel your pain and Jedi's too Benson wore a bucket for 2 mths at one stage cause i just could bear to come home and find him bleeding. Everything crossed for you that it assists Jedi - I know it's a long road but hang in there k!

I've been given the opportunity to try the Vet's All Natural Program, 6-8 weeks, anyone tried it?

Good luck Sas I so hope it helps you guys

By the way what does the Skin & Coat Formula contain? Also what grains are in the Premium Blend?

For Benson Mega Oil created to help people with skin conditions seems to help heaps!

Ingredients - Flaxseed Oil, Soybean Oil, Evening Primrose Oil, Borage Oil (15ml GLA), Safflower Seed Oil, Sunflower Seed Oil, Sesame Seed Oil, Pumkinseed Oil.

I also give him salmon oil capsula's