The Concept Of Stealing

[Kirislin]

Mine do, particularly Her Wickedness, Kibah. If I give any of them a bone I can go up while they are eating it and take it off them, no problem. I always return it to them of course. But today Kibah stole little houseguests chicken wing, and do you think I could get anywhere near her to get it back??? Not a chance. As soon as it was all gone though she quite happily trotted up to me. She's too smart for her own good that bad girl.

[poodlefan]

I don't think mine have any real concept of 'ownership' unless I or one of the other dogs has physically got something.

Howard is definitely not a capitalist.. if it looks interesting he thinks he's entitled to check it out.. especially if its on a plate. He's told every time to go away but he keeps trying. No plate or cup is off limits he thinks.

[SparkyTansy]

I think what they get is your reaction to their stealing... and run for their lives!

[Kirislin]

I think what they get is your reaction to their stealing... and run for their lives!

No, I dont think so, I was quite calm and just called her. If I'd given her the chicken wing I know I could've just gone straight up to her, but if she steals it off another dog she wont let me get near her. It's happened before, she is a devil, a clever gorgeous one though.

If ever I get myself a video camera I will prove it. hahaha

Edited January 7, 2010 by Kirislin

[gila]

Mine's the opposite of yours Kirislin. If I have a toy or treat for Spence I sometimes put it on the ground and make him wait a bit before telling him "ok". If he grabs the treat/toy before I say "ok", he will give it up immediately when I tell him to. Whereas if I have told him "ok", he is a lot more reluctant to give it back to me (not that I make a habit of giving him things and then taking them away!). It's like he figures that I gave him the item so he is the rightful owner now lol

[Gayle.]

Benson definitely knows what "stealing" is. If he knows he's allowed to have something....his toys, or new toys that are bought for him, he picks them up and carries them around the house looking for someone to play with him.

If he knows he's not allowed to have something......scored from the bin, the kitchen bench or the grooming bag (he has a thing about brushes!) he sneaks off with it into a corner where he thinks he can't be seen.

If he's stolen food, he eats it REALLY fast.....but his dinner he takes his time over.

[huski]

I think what they get is your reaction to their stealing... and run for their lives!

I agree. I think they go off our body language however subtle it may be. Dogs are opportunists and IMO have no idea what stealing is.

I think it's the same way Daisy "knows" that I'm going to clean her ears, and runs to hide in her crate even if she can't see the ear cleaner or I've only just got off the couch and haven't even gotten it yet. She's not telepathic, she can just read the most subtle of body language!

Daisy eats fast if she knows I'm going to stop her

Edited January 7, 2010 by huski

[Pepper and Jax]

Stealing is a great game to Pepper. When she gets hold of something she hasn't been given (eg. a shoe, a bra, something out of a shopping bag, a toilet roll that hasn't been used yet...) she races down the hallway, and out the back and plays with it. It's even more exciting when we a) look out the window to see what she's got or b) tell her off/ ask for it back/ offer treats in return/ run after her...

Yes, Pepper has OH and I well trained. We must be extra vigilant about not putting anything in reach of the "stealing game".

But like in Kirislin's house, anything we've given to Pepper is easily taken away. I guess she knows we're going to return it to her.

ETA: When she steals food, Pepper will eat it fast to prevent us getting it back.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Pepper and Jax

[anniek]

Mine know that EVERYTHING (in the world) belongs to me

If they find things like KFC bones or whatever lying around on our walks, they will pick it up then look at me to see if they are allowed to eat it or do they have to "yuk" (drop it).

[Gayle.]

I agree. I think they go off our body language however subtle it may be.

What about if you're not there though? Benson has occasionally got a brush out of the grooming bag when I've been outside....he's seen his chance and taken it....and hidden it in his little bolthole.

It's only been later when I've gone to groom the dogs or tidy up the laundry that I realise the brush is missing. How does he know he has to hide it if I'm not there for him to read my body language?

And other items he's never nicked before but seems to have an uncanny knack of knowing he's not supposed to have? He stole a lens cap out of my camera bag one day when we were out, and took off across a footy oval with it. He'd never been near my camera bag before so he would not have known that it was out of bounds. And yet HIS body language showed that he knew he wasn't supposed to have it, and I never even realised he had it until he was halfway across the ground.

[megan_]

Mine know when they have something norty. If they have one of their toys they will let me walk up to them and I can say "give" and they hand it over. If they have my knickers I don't stand a chance!

[voloclydes]

leo so does understand stealing.....

see he waits till you leave the room to acquire the object (lets say xmas day meat) and then he knows to keep it he must swallow it whole to keep the object. or you will open his mouth and take it out.

if it's too big he just runs.... fast! ;) :D

so yeap he knows.....

[corvus]

Mine understand the concept that the safest place for something tasty is in their bellies.

Erik and Kivi wrestle objects out of each other's mouths several times a day. It's one of their favourite games. They don't act differently if they take something the other one wasn't really intending to give them. Kivi will just sit back and let Erik take whatever he wants and Erik assumes that this is his right. With us, he assumes that if we say "Erik" we have something even better for him.

[huski]

I agree. I think they go off our body language however subtle it may be.

What about if you're not there though? Benson has occasionally got a brush out of the grooming bag when I've been outside....he's seen his chance and taken it....and hidden it in his little bolthole.

It's only been later when I've gone to groom the dogs or tidy up the laundry that I realise the brush is missing. How does he know he has to hide it if I'm not there for him to read my body language?

And other items he's never nicked before but seems to have an uncanny knack of knowing he's not supposed to have? He stole a lens cap out of my camera bag one day when we were out, and took off across a footy oval with it. He'd never been near my camera bag before so he would not have known that it was out of bounds. And yet HIS body language showed that he knew he wasn't supposed to have it, and I never even realised he had it until he was halfway across the ground.

Daisy will "steal" things she's never touched before when unsupervised and she runs away with them and "hides" them in her crate.

It's a game to her, something fun to do - dogs don't have a moral compass so they don't have the ability to understand when something is what we would deem right or wrong. They are opportunisit and will do what they know or think will work for them.

What body language did Benson display that made you think he knew that taking somehing out of your bag was wrong and that he wasn't supposed to have it?

[cowanbree]

I have to disagree too. Quest knows getting stuff off the bench is not viewed favorably but can’t seem to help herself. Just tonight I wandered through the kitchen and she shot past me at 100miles an hour and out the dog door. She had been eating stuff off the bench and heard me coming, I had no idea until after she shot outside

[huski]

I have to disagree too. Quest knows getting stuff off the bench is not viewed favorably but can’t seem to help herself. Just tonight I wandered through the kitchen and she shot past me at 100miles an hour and out the dog door. She had been eating stuff off the bench and heard me coming, I had no idea until after she shot outside

Because she knows that if she gets stuff off the counter you will take it back/yell at her/discinpline her etc. She's just learnt not to do it in front of you, not that it is "wrong".

[Gayle.]

What body language did Benson display that made you think he knew that taking somehing out of your bag was wrong and that he wasn't supposed to have it?

Running away with it was a real clue....and running fast. But also while he was running, he had his head ducked low and was looking back to see if I was looking.

I've watched him before getting something he's not supposed to have and he gives very furtive glances towards me to make sure I'm not looking at him.

On Christmas night, my sons English Setter, the dumbest dog in the world, was in the living room with everyone and a whole lot of food was spread out on our big coffee table. He laid on the floor and ignored the food but we all got up to go outside and look at something, and as everyone left the room, I doubled back to find the dog helping himself to a shortbread bickie. Until we were gone, he'd shown no interest in the food and hadn't been told not to touch it. We don't usually have food on the coffee table, and hadn't for the whole time he'd been staying there.

He defnitely knew he shouldn't have it and when I walked back into the room, he hastily gobbled it down and quickly assumed his position back on the floor.

[Kirislin]

I had a really funny cute thing happen once with Puck. I had him in the car with me and amazingly they're always good with food if I go shopping, they never touch it, even meat but this one day I was going visiting and I went in to yummy Beechworth bakery to buy something creamy to take with me. I put it in the front passenger floor well because I didn't want him to squash it. I had to go into another shop for something I said sternly to leave. When I came back there was a tiny lick out of the cream, just a little itsy bit gone. So he knew he wasn't to touch it, but the temptation to have some took over, but he still had the self control not to just wolf it all down and was able to just sneak that tiny bit, just like a person dipping their finger in the cream when nobody is looking. How he managed to not just think Oh to hell with it and wolf the whole lot down I dont know.

[armahani]

I think it depends on what you mean by the concept of "stealing".

Do dogs moralise and attach the same associated thought patterns to "taking something which belongs to another" that humans do? Well of course not. Although I doubt you could argue a universally applied morality to our westernised concept of "stealing" anyway - so perhaps it is a learnt behaviour for us as well .

But if the question is, do dogs learn to associate consequences with certain behaviours (at times quite complex behaviours) so that they know in future that doing that behaviour will result in punishment or or reward or fun or possible capture - and learn to respond appropriately? Well, yes of course (don't we base most training on that fact ). So I think it is quite easy for a dog to learn what our notion of "stealing" is. They don't have to witness our body language in the here and now. It is enough that they have learnt that doing action A (looking at/reaching for/taking object on bench) results in consequence B (your anger, being chased, certain body language) - to know to expect it in the future. So they have, in effect learnt what the behaviour of "stealing" is. Clever really .

That doesn't mean that they have the same concept of ownership as us - but they have certainly learnt what they can touch without reaction, and what they can't.

My boy loves soft toys and he has plenty around the place that he will pick up and play with quite normally. The other day I came into the living room and he is twisted into a pretzel, bum and tail wriggling like mad, looking back at me just *hoping* for a reaction from me with a glint in his eye - something in his mouth. Well it was obvious what he had done - he'd gone and "stolen" one of the puppy toys from the puppy room. I'm quite sure he had no notion that x toys belong to him and y toys belong to the puppies. But he sure knew that jumping into the puppy room and taking a toy was going to get me to pretend to be really angry with him, all growly and chasing him around the house in a big pretend game - so in that case he very clearly instigated "stealing" to get me to behave in the way he wanted. .

[mita]

This smart tibbie is saying, 'If you GIVE me something, I won't have to STEAL.'