Karelea Aussies Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Our 13 month old Aussie was spayed on Wednesday morning. She has been tested for MDR1 and is classed as affected with mutant/normal results. When I picked her up after the op, she was showing what I would believe to be fairly normal behaviour associated with the pain killers and anasthetic ie: very sleepy and off balance when walking, obvious discomfort, lack of appetite. She was prescribed Rimadyl for pain relief at 1/2 tablet per day which were to be started Thursday morning. Thursday she pretty much slept unitl 1pm and I gave her the tablet about 2.pm. Later in the day she seemed to become very erratic....moving very little but darting around whe she did so, jumping up onto outdoor setting chairs, which she has never done even when she should be jumping, trying to climb into shopping bags (the green woolies bags), hiding in bushes. I thought the combination of anashthetic and Rimadyl may have been too much for her system and she seemed....high. Jumpy, odd behaviour and pupils were dilated. I did some googling of Rimadyl and while I could not find it listed as a drug to be wary of on (in relation to MDR1) any of the web sites I looked at, I did read that a DOL poster advised against it for dogs who are MDR1 affected. She continued to act strangely so for her safety we kept her crated. Yesterday morning was the same behaviour and by late afternoon she seemed to come round, walking normally and even tried it on for a game of tug. She had a quiet evening and a peaceful night and seemed to be back to normal, and while the darting around had stopped, she was moving a bit tentatively. This morning she seemed to be fine, although quiet and by 2pm was back to being jumpy and unsettled and tonight we are back to doing strange things. After running outside it has taken over an hour to get her out of the bushes and back inside. I am going to ring the Vets in the morning but am wondering if anyone has seen this behaviour in their dogs when desexed or does it seem odd. I am worried the drugs may not be wearing off like they should. I am also wary of giving her the pain killers due to what I have read in regard to Rimadyl and MDR1. My vets were not familiar with MDR1 prior to having Tilly as a patient, so am worried they might have missed some important info before prescribing the Rimadyl. Any thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I'm sorry I don't know anything about MDR1 but I do know this is not normal behaviour your dog is displaying and I would most certainly be contacting the vet pronto as it has been going on for several days now. Best of luck and let us know how you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Definitely abnormal behaviour and needs to see the vet asap. If she was mine I would have been on the phone to the vet by Thursday. I recently had my 9 year old girl desexed and her only different behaviour was that she slept most of the first 48 hours. I brought her home as soon as she was out of the anaesthetic and she could walk normally then. She ate normally that night but was just tired and wanted to sleep more. Younger dogs usually recover even faster than this but at nine, I thought being extra tired was pretty normal for the first couple of days. She was given a pain killing injection after the op but nothing after that. After 48 hours I was flat out to stop her racing around like she normally does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 Definitely abnormal behaviour and needs to see the vet asap. If she was mine I would have been on the phone to the vet by Thursday.I recently had my 9 year old girl desexed and her only different behaviour was that she slept most of the first 48 hours. I brought her home as soon as she was out of the anaesthetic and she could walk normally then. She ate normally that night but was just tired and wanted to sleep more. Younger dogs usually recover even faster than this but at nine, I thought being extra tired was pretty normal for the first couple of days. She was given a pain killing injection after the op but nothing after that. After 48 hours I was flat out to stop her racing around like she normally does. I did speak to the Vet Thursday around mid day but at that stage she was just sleeping a lot and she advised that it may take her longer to shake off the anasthetic. At that stage she had not had Rimadyl though. The erratic behaviour did not start until much later in the day. Thinking back it might have been already dark when she really started going weird, as I was worried about not being able to see her if she got into the yard. We are not much better this morning with her refusing to leave her crate even though she has been in since 11pm. I am waiting for the vets to open to call them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 This is VERY abnormal behaviour It has also gone on for too long, poor girl.With her being shown to have this 'red flag' - if she were mine I would be limiting her exposure to drugs/chemicals as much as possible- using only known safe drugs- and avoiding extras wherever possible. Hopefully she will bounce back quickly! IMO dogs recover fine without painkillers.... I know very little of MDR1... but could she be still suffering effects from a pre-anaesthetic drug, as well as the rimadyl.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 (edited) The Vet that did the op is not at the clinic today but I have spoken to another Vet and she feels it is pain related. She is wary for Tilly to have any more Rimadyl until she has done some further investigation into the MDR1. She said other than that it could be, a bad stitch pulling or just a bit of extra sooking. I pointed out that she pretty much was back to normal on Friday evening and then back to being erratic yesterday afternoon. I just have to wait for her phone call now. persephone - I am worried about the Rimadyl as I have read 2 DOL posters associate it with MRD1, BUT I can not find any web sites that state that fact. I have only given her 1/2 tablet at this stage (on Thursday afternoon) as it was later in the evening that she started acting strange. If anyone can point me to a site that shows Rimadyl and MDR1 to be a bad mix, I would appreciate it. The Vet is doing the same as she feels she needs pain meds but wants to make sure it is safe first. Edited January 2, 2010 by thelinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 Honestly- I have seen hundreds of bitches speyed--- and while a few would be acting sore & sorry- most are back to almost normal after about 48 hours. A bit of pain is not altogether bad- as it stops bitches wanting to run around/jump etc. Mind you - there could also be stuff happening internally that we just cannot see! (another reason to NOT use pain meds- as they can, and do mask things ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 2, 2010 Author Share Posted January 2, 2010 Honestly- I have seen hundreds of bitches speyed--- and while a few would be acting sore & sorry- most are back to almost normal after about 48 hours.A bit of pain is not altogether bad- as it stops bitches wanting to run around/jump etc. Mind you - there could also be stuff happening internally that we just cannot see! (another reason to NOT use pain meds- as they can, and do mask things ) I only have 2 previous to go on and they were back up and around easily too. She has made it out of her crate and 1 bedroom down and is laying on my daughters quilt. I had a quick look and stitches still look fine with no redness or swelling but she was definitely uncomfortable while I was doing it and very quickly sat up. The more I see the more I think she may have a stitch pulling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 The more I see the more I think she may have a stitch pulling. may well be an internal one not right....poor girl . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 The Vet that did the op is not at the clinic today but I have spoken to another Vet and she feels it is pain related. She is wary for Tilly to have any more Rimadyl until she has done some further investigation into the MDR1. She said other than that it could be, a bad stitch pulling or just a bit of extra sooking. I pointed out that she pretty much was back to normal on Friday evening and then back to being erratic yesterday afternoon. I just have to wait for her phone call now. persephone - I am worried about the Rimadyl as I have read 2 DOL posters associate it with MRD1, BUT I can not find any web sites that state that fact. I have only given her 1/2 tablet at this stage (on Thursday afternoon) as it was later in the evening that she started acting strange. If anyone can point me to a site that shows Rimadyl and MDR1 to be a bad mix, I would appreciate it. The Vet is doing the same as she feels she needs pain meds but wants to make sure it is safe first. [/quote I might be right off the mark here, but I would have thought the vet would prescribe morphine or another pain killer, not Rimadyl being an anti-inflammatory/pain killer. Would it not be the anti-inflammatory side of Rimadyl that could be the issue with MDRI? I am not a vet, but is an anti-inflammatory really necessary post surgery for desexing? I can see the possible benefits with post surgery swelling etc, but necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 My dogs have only ever had an injection of painkiller while waking up and not needed any more after that. Usually after a couple of days it is a battle to keep them quiet. I wouldn't use the rimadyl at all until you know what is going on, even if you have to take her to the hospital for daily injections of a pain killer. Some dogs/bitches can be very wussy and I have seen some that just flat our refuse to walk as it pulls a little when they stand up, so they sit and have to be carried. Does she normally have a fairly low pain tolerance? Try not to let her see you are too concerned, try to treat her as much as possible as normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Just back from the vet and she has checked her out and is happy with what she is seeing. Temp is fine, stitches look good and while there, she was more animated than she has been, and to make me look like a nutter, she was walking propertly. Vet thinks she has a low pain threshold (we have no previous incidents to go by) and may also be having pain spams along with muscle tightening after resting. She had 1 jumpy episodes in the wating room and nothing since. We have decided to not give the painkillers at this stage but the Vet is going to make a few calls tomorrow to see if she can get more info in regards to Rimadyl and MDR1. (for Tilly and for future reference) Thanks for everyones thoughts on the matter. It helps to have people to bounce off every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Good news, then yep- try and not 'sympathise' with her.. crate/bed rest, maybe a warm wheat bag..or something on her side if she will tolerate it... and some extra chewing things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Try not to let her see you are too concerned, try to treat her as much as possible as normal. Good news, then yep- try and not 'sympathise' with her.. crate/bed rest, maybe a warm wheat bag..or something on her side if she will tolerate it... and some extra chewing things... Will do. I do not have a wheat bag but have a couple of hot water bottles that the kids use in winter. They have fluffy covers that slip on. I will dig one out and check on its condition. If its ok I might try some hot tap water in it. Won't be hot but might offer some warmth. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Well that all sounds like great news. Hope she is feeling back to herself very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Well that all sounds like great news.Hope she is feeling back to herself very soon. thanks dyzney. She is currently curled up in a tiny doughnut bead on top of her tramp bed....strange girl I did ask why Rimadyl instead of a pain killer, and the Vet said that they generally prescribe it to help minimise swelling while providing pain relief, although she is not the prescribing Vet so is just her assumption based on their general practice. I am not sure what part of the drug is possibly a problem with MDR1 as I can not seem to find any information other than it is listed on the 'not for collie drug list'. The Clinic is looking into it to see if they can get any more info. As for Morphine, I think this is a bit of a grey area as it is thought to be pumped out by the P-glycoprotein (MDR1) in humans so is suspected to be the same for dogs, but there are no known reports of toxicity nor dose recommendations for dogs with the MDR1 mutation, according to the Washington State University web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Border Collies can get quite skittish after being speyed as well, so maybe it's more of a breed type/personality type. It's fairly standard that she may have had Torbugesic or Morphine in her premed but they are very short acting 4-8hrs. Rimadyl is stock standard for mature bitch speys as the ovaries and uterus are BIG after one or two seasons, and there may already be some ovarian cysts there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Thanks for that advice thelinks and Staff'n'Toller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karelea Aussies Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Border Collies can get quite skittish after being speyed as well, so maybe it's more of a breed type/personality type. It's fairly standard that she may have had Torbugesic or Morphine in her premed but they are very short acting 4-8hrs. Rimadyl is stock standard for mature bitch speys as the ovaries and uterus are BIG after one or two seasons, and there may already be some ovarian cysts there. Thanks for that SnT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 (edited) Hope she is back to normal now. Thank goodness you don't have to go through that again. Edited January 3, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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