On The Effective Use Of Punishment

[PAX]

often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcment if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast. If it hurts the dog by choking off it's air supply you are doing the dog a "huge" favour of kindness to experience that type of correction as the next phase of aggression with the failure of positive methods is the vet clinic to be PTS and the brief period of blocking that causes unpleasantness to the dog has ultimately given the dog a chance at rehablilitation to live their full life.

My GSD has a high level of civil aggression and is naturally stranger and dog aggressive and will bite people given the opportunity untrained. In three blocking corrections along with positive reinforcement for not reacting, my dog in the hands of the inexperienced and destined for rainbow bridge uncontrolled can now be walked through a shopping centre and have strangers pat him in complete safety. Is it a nice feeling to place a dog in a blocking correction???.......NO it's bloody horrible, but it's far better than the thought of saying a premature goodbye to your friend at the vet clinic because you were too obsessed with purely positive training methods.

You must be kidding If I had to do that I would buy a guinnea pig.

Maybe instead of being so defensive of +R training, you could do some research so your next dog doesn't have to experience this 'training', if you can call it that. Poor frigging dogs.

Edited January 9, 2010 by PAX

[corvus]

Interesting post, M-J.

1. The punishment must be something the animal dislikes and something the animal does not expect.

This one confuses me for the punishment to keep the behaviour stopped doesn't the dog need to expect there to consequences for displaying the behaviour that is undesirable to the handler. Hence the reason, I believe, for rule no 5, (5. The punishment must be associated with the behavior, but not with the trainer. Otherwise, the trainer becomes part of the punishment and the animal starts fearing and disliking the trainer.)

The reason why I agree with this rule is that when a punishment becomes predictable it will lose effectiveness and become nagging rather than an actual punishment. In my mind, if an animal is expecting a punishment then you're using them too much. Presumably, if your punishment is working, by the time it becomes expected the dog will have stopped doing the thing you are punishing precisely because it has become expected. So I kind of agree with you, but my understanding of this rule is that it's aimed at the naggers out there.

If the handler is using punishment I'm inclined to agree, but when a dog is being punished for something in many cases there are sooo many variables as to why the dog is being punished the dog has to go through several/many trials to guess which one it is to eventually get it right, traditional methods of teaching heeling is a good example, whereas when stopping an undesirable behaviour when what the dog is doing after the undesirable behaviour (to the handler) has ceased is irrelevant e.g. chasing something, it is easier to stop it with only one correction as there isn't much guessing on the dogs part.

That is a great point, and the reason why I don't use punishments to teach anything. To me, punishments in the P+ sense are for creating an inhibition and that's about it. Maybe there should be an extra rule about the complexity of the behaviour you're trying to stop? Or the number of reps it should take? I think if it takes more than a handful of reps you're drifting into making it predictable and thus losing effectiveness and also drifting into more punishments than rewards territory.

However if the dog finds the behaviour extremely rewarding sometimes they will blow off the punishment to perform the desirable behaviour e.g. a trapped animal mutilating itself to escape from confinement, my sheep killer blowing off his punisher that had worked for over 12mths ( with retraining I was able to walk this dog offlead through a mob or in a paddock with running sheep then one day he said not today those fluffy butts retreating are too much for me to ignore and he also went through a hotwire that had managed to keep bulls in and he got belted several times as he was scrambling over the fence, so he actually blew off two huge punishers ) and the greys at work going through hotwires they know are there to chase a bunny.

The above is the reason I'm not too certain about rule no 6 being gospel either. I'm certainly not saying you don't need to be consistant I personally think it is a dog trainers greatest asset, but not 100% reliable but then what is apart from death and taxes

I think there are two issues, here. The first being dogs in such a state of drive or arousal that punishments are as nothing. I remember someone on another forum with a Dogo who would take off after Coyotes. When he got back he would have cactus spines actually lodged in his underbelly and balls, but obviously he didn't much feel them when he was chasing one of those pesky Coyotes. I think it's clear from the dogs' behaviour that these things aren't punishing enough for these dogs in these circumstances. There's a good chance they'd have to seriously maim themselves before physical pain had much of an impact on them in this state.

Secondly, you have mentioned reliability. It's a fair call that it's sometimes near impossible to punish every single time. My approach is that if I can't punish every time then this is not a behaviour to punish. The same approach as some positive trainers take to training reliable recalls: don't let the dog choose the right thing without being rewarded and don't give them an opportunity to do the wrong thing. So if your dog is off leash and you think he might not come when you call him, don't call him. This is a bad situation for any trainer to have got themselves into, but it happens, and it's not the end of the world. We also have poor judgement sometimes and are surprised when we call and the dog blows us off. These things happen, but I am guessing that if it happens rarely, then you can recover with a little extra work with punishments the same way you can with rewards. But maybe it is easier with rewards because you can set them up to win rather than waiting for them to do the wrong thing again.

ETA an acknowledgement of what Kavik said. There is an attitude shift, and IME, it made training a lot more fun for me as well. It's a vital point, but one that usually seems to get overlooked.

Edited January 9, 2010 by corvus

[corvus]

Dogs like every other one of God's creatures need to learn the consequences of it's actions either good or not so good and I don't believe it's a healthy practice to deny a dog this privilege and learning curve in life. Many subjects as an example dog aggression, regularly appear on these boards with frustration as how to manage this situation and correct the behaviour. Positive reinforcement conditioning may correct the situation in time but what "will" correct the situation very quickly in these situations is often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcment if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast. If it hurts the dog by choking off it's air supply you are doing the dog a "huge" favour of kindness to experience that type of correction as the next phase of aggression with the failure of positive methods is the vet clinic to be PTS and the brief period of blocking that causes unpleasantness to the dog has ultimately given the dog a chance at rehablilitation to live their full life.

.... Oh, please. Spare the rod and spoil the dog? Do you like to be punished, Diablo? How about I choke off your air supply every time you post something I don't like? Should be a gift to you, because it'll save you from serious injury when someone else snaps and introduces you to Mr Lead Pipe.

Of course, I'm not threatening you, but illustrating a point. That argument is ridiculous and actually kind of offensive, much like my above statement would be if it were said to your face in an aggressive tone. Just because punishment is a way that any animal on the planet learns doesn't mean we are somehow denying our dogs of something natural to them that they need. We desex them, don't we? That's even more fundamental to life than operant conditioning.

My GSD has a high level of civil aggression and is naturally stranger and dog aggressive and will bite people given the opportunity untrained. In three blocking corrections along with positive reinforcement for not reacting, my dog in the hands of the inexperienced and destined for rainbow bridge uncontrolled can now be walked through a shopping centre and have strangers pat him in complete safety. Is it a nice feeling to place a dog in a blocking correction???.......NO it's bloody horrible, but it's far better than the thought of saying a premature goodbye to your friend at the vet clinic because you were too obsessed with purely positive training methods.

Firstly, why are we talking about your civil aggressive GSD? I don't know any dog owners that have to handle such a thing except that one person in the States with her working line GSD. I know she had some civil aggression problems with him at some point, and she didn't need corrections to get it under control. However, I do know aggressive dogs that GOT WORSE when punished. I know dogs that got PTS because their initial fear aggression was treated with punishment and they spiralled out of control. There are always exceptions, but arguing against a set of general statements with exceptions to the rules is, well, not very convincing or useful I'm afraid.

Secondly, no one here is talking about putting a dog to sleep because they have tried positive methods and they didn't work but they refuse to try punishments. Would you like to discuss the topic at hand, now? Are there any rules that you specifically disagree with, or are you just kicking against reward-based methods in general?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

What I discredit is the assumption that negative reinforcement will cause breakdowns in all dogs because it doesn't. In fact, some dogs thrive on their understanding that the handler holds the ultimate physical power over them and many dogs have been saved from a premature trip to rainbow bridge because of these training methods. No methods are correct for every dog and every situation, it depends on many variables what method on what dogs will work best for what needs to be achieved.

You went further than that and you didn't qualify it by saying "some" dogs. You also bagged out positive trainers saying they could not compete successfully with old school trainers or train working dogs. That's why you were questioned, and quite reasonably questioned IMO.

Dog killing (rainbow bridge, c'mon) happens for many reasons, and many dogs have been saved from premature death by people who knew how to tell the dog when it was doing the right thing as well as telling it when it was doing the wrong thing.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

If it hurts the dog by choking off it's air supply you are doing the dog a "huge" favour of kindness to experience that type of correction as the next phase of aggression with the failure of positive methods is the vet clinic to be PTS and the brief period of blocking that causes unpleasantness to the dog has ultimately given the dog a chance at rehablilitation to live their full life.

Living in fear of your life may be effective but I don't want my dogs to live with that fear. Not only because it's immoral but because as Pax notes, it's completely unnecessary.

Have you ever had someone choke off your air supply? If so, did you view it as instructive?

[m-j]

but my understanding of this rule is that it's aimed at the naggers out there.

I hadn't thought of that.

The first being dogs in such a state of drive or arousal that punishments are as nothing.

Yes but something I didn't mention was that the dog actually had a few moments of deliberation, he knew the wire was hot and had actively avoided it in the past. He was about 20 m ahead of me I was advancing on him using the punisher (which had previously been effective at a distance), he was responding in a sense in that he was looking away from the sheep (my criteria for receiving the punisher was looking at sheep with an inkling of that prey drive look) but he was looking back whereas normally after using the punisher once he would move/cringe away from where he was and go and do something else which he knew was safe. It was like he was thinking fluffy bums retreating, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums oh what the heck here goes.

So he wasn't actually in full blown prey drive when deliberating but when he decided to go and going through the fence he was. I saw his body jolt when being belted by the fence but he didnt seem to notice it. I have a few theories as to why he chose to blow it off and ignore the threat of the fence, but I really don't know the fact is something that had been very effective under different circumstances for a long time suddenly wasn't.

These things happen, but I am guessing that if it happens rarely, then you can recover with a little extra work with punishments the same way you can with rewards. But maybe it is easier with rewards because you can set them up to win rather than waiting for them to do the wrong thing again.

I do agree with this but I had taken this into consideration when doing the retraining knowing that dogs will only be reliable if you add as many criteria to proofing as you can. I worked this dog in many different situations (different places , me doing different things, different distances, the sheep doing different things) until he didn't respond to the sheep at all and actively looked away through choice. One of my theories was that maintenance training hadn't been done for a long time as the dog did nothing to be punished even though he was exposed to sheep on a regular basis and responded how I wanted him to....dunno .

As you say it is much easier to do maintenance training when rewarding good behaviour.

cheers

M-J

Edited January 9, 2010 by m-j

[Diablo]

All I reply to that is that I feel much more confident handling my DA dog now when I have used a clicker and food to deal with her aggression than when I was using corrections. I feel much better and less stressed to be looking for a way to reward her for looking at me instead of the other dog than when I was waiting for her to aggress so I could give her a correction. A mindset rather than a problem with the method, possibly, but it really made a difference to my outlook when walking and training her.

I think you have told us before Kavik, that your DA dog is fear aggressive...........try dominance aggression with clickers and treats The dog says, "hold the treat for a second, I will be right back for the treat after I bite this kid walking down the pathway"

Edited January 9, 2010 by Diablo

[Diablo]

often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcment if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast. If it hurts the dog by choking off it's air supply you are doing the dog a "huge" favour of kindness to experience that type of correction as the next phase of aggression with the failure of positive methods is the vet clinic to be PTS and the brief period of blocking that causes unpleasantness to the dog has ultimately given the dog a chance at rehablilitation to live their full life.

My GSD has a high level of civil aggression and is naturally stranger and dog aggressive and will bite people given the opportunity untrained. In three blocking corrections along with positive reinforcement for not reacting, my dog in the hands of the inexperienced and destined for rainbow bridge uncontrolled can now be walked through a shopping centre and have strangers pat him in complete safety. Is it a nice feeling to place a dog in a blocking correction???.......NO it's bloody horrible, but it's far better than the thought of saying a premature goodbye to your friend at the vet clinic because you were too obsessed with purely positive training methods.

You must be kidding If I had to do that I would buy a guinnea pig.

Maybe instead of being so defensive of +R training, you could do some research so your next dog doesn't have to experience this 'training', if you can call it that. Poor frigging dogs.

Obviously you haven't handled dogs with dangerous aggression Pax, or understand the ramifications of dog attacks with a stupid comment like that???

[Diablo]

Dogs like every other one of God's creatures need to learn the consequences of it's actions either good or not so good and I don't believe it's a healthy practice to deny a dog this privilege and learning curve in life. Many subjects as an example dog aggression, regularly appear on these boards with frustration as how to manage this situation and correct the behaviour. Positive reinforcement conditioning may correct the situation in time but what "will" correct the situation very quickly in these situations is often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcment if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast. If it hurts the dog by choking off it's air supply you are doing the dog a "huge" favour of kindness to experience that type of correction as the next phase of aggression with the failure of positive methods is the vet clinic to be PTS and the brief period of blocking that causes unpleasantness to the dog has ultimately given the dog a chance at rehablilitation to live their full life.

.... Oh, please. Spare the rod and spoil the dog? Do you like to be punished, Diablo? How about I choke off your air supply every time you post something I don't like? Should be a gift to you, because it'll save you from serious injury when someone else snaps and introduces you to Mr Lead Pipe.

Of course, I'm not threatening you, but illustrating a point. That argument is ridiculous and actually kind of offensive, much like my above statement would be if it were said to your face in an aggressive tone. Just because punishment is a way that any animal on the planet learns doesn't mean we are somehow denying our dogs of something natural to them that they need. We desex them, don't we? That's even more fundamental to life than operant conditioning.

My GSD has a high level of civil aggression and is naturally stranger and dog aggressive and will bite people given the opportunity untrained. In three blocking corrections along with positive reinforcement for not reacting, my dog in the hands of the inexperienced and destined for rainbow bridge uncontrolled can now be walked through a shopping centre and have strangers pat him in complete safety. Is it a nice feeling to place a dog in a blocking correction???.......NO it's bloody horrible, but it's far better than the thought of saying a premature goodbye to your friend at the vet clinic because you were too obsessed with purely positive training methods.

Firstly, why are we talking about your civil aggressive GSD? I don't know any dog owners that have to handle such a thing except that one person in the States with her working line GSD. I know she had some civil aggression problems with him at some point, and she didn't need corrections to get it under control. However, I do know aggressive dogs that GOT WORSE when punished. I know dogs that got PTS because their initial fear aggression was treated with punishment and they spiralled out of control. There are always exceptions, but arguing against a set of general statements with exceptions to the rules is, well, not very convincing or useful I'm afraid.

Secondly, no one here is talking about putting a dog to sleep because they have tried positive methods and they didn't work but they refuse to try punishments. Would you like to discuss the topic at hand, now? Are there any rules that you specifically disagree with, or are you just kicking against reward-based methods in general?

Funny thing is Corvus, blocking methods you will find used often by "proper" trainers.........the one's who have actually achieved something and can train a range of dogs for various applications. Half of the clicker and treat trainers will and do run a mile when faced with seriously aggressive dogs or at times deem them untrainable. Purely positive is no better than negative reinforcement where you will find "proper" trainers will have all these tools in their box and use what is best for specific applications.

[m-j]

Positive reinforcement conditioning may correct the situation in time but what "will" correct the situation very quickly in these situations is often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcement if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast.

Just out of curiosity is there any reason why you have to walk the dog through a shopping centre or why you couldn't put a muzzle on the dog instead of resorting to threatening the dog with his life?

cheers

M-J

[Diablo]

Positive reinforcement conditioning may correct the situation in time but what "will" correct the situation very quickly in these situations is often known as "blocking"...............yes!!!, negative reinforcement if you aggress, you will loose your air supply and a dog that can't breath will die from that effect which a dog learns fast.

Just out of curiosity is there any reason why you have to walk the dog through a shopping centre or why you couldn't put a muzzle on the dog instead of resorting to threatening the dog with his life?

cheers

M-J

If you want to bandaid aggression you could use a muzzle but that only masks the behaviour, it doesn't fix it???

[Aidan]

Half of the clicker and treat trainers will and do run a mile when faced with seriously aggressive dogs or at times deem them untrainable.

I'm glad you said "half"! I must be in the other half But to be completely honest, you cannot possibly use 'purely positive' methods with any fear or aggression case, there is necessarily an aversive involved in whatever the fear-inducing stimulus is.

[corvus]

Yes but something I didn't mention was that the dog actually had a few moments of deliberation, he knew the wire was hot and had actively avoided it in the past. He was about 20 m ahead of me I was advancing on him using the punisher (which had previously been effective at a distance), he was responding in a sense in that he was looking away from the sheep (my criteria for receiving the punisher was looking at sheep with an inkling of that prey drive look) but he was looking back whereas normally after using the punisher once he would move/cringe away from where he was and go and do something else which he knew was safe. It was like he was thinking fluffy bums retreating, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums, hotwire, punisher, fluffy bums oh what the heck here goes.

So he wasn't actually in full blown prey drive when deliberating but when he decided to go and going through the fence he was. I saw his body jolt when being belted by the fence but he didnt seem to notice it. I have a few theories as to why he chose to blow it off and ignore the threat of the fence, but I really don't know the fact is something that had been very effective under different circumstances for a long time suddenly wasn't.

Ah, I see. I used to get the same thing from my barely trained corgi. My mother has a dog that weighs up pros and cons every time you ask him to do something. Neither dog was/is as carefully trained as yours, though, and my mother's dog is overcoming his "why should I" attitude with a stronger reward history. I think you can overcome these things with conditioning, but dogs are like any animal and sometimes what is going on in their head is different to what is normally going on in their head. At least, that's my theory. Just like some days you get on a forum and stick it to someone even though any other day you would just walk away and not bother about it. There are always reasons why you feel particularly invincible or particularly careless, but sometimes you don't even know what they are. I have a sneaking suspicion some dogs are harder to condition than others. It seems to me that some dogs have that spark of independence and alertness where they are often conscious of what they are doing and are in the habit of thinking before leaping so to speak.

These things happen, but I am guessing that if it happens rarely, then you can recover with a little extra work with punishments the same way you can with rewards. But maybe it is easier with rewards because you can set them up to win rather than waiting for them to do the wrong thing again.

I do agree with this but I had taken this into consideration when doing the retraining knowing that dogs will only be reliable if you add as many criteria to proofing as you can. I worked this dog in many different situations (different places , me doing different things, different distances, the sheep doing different things) until he didn't respond to the sheep at all and actively looked away through choice. One of my theories was that maintenance training hadn't been done for a long time as the dog did nothing to be punished even though he was exposed to sheep on a regular basis and responded how I wanted him to....dunno .

:) You're probably onto something with the maintenance training. Kivi's supposedly conditioned recall is about as good as the last time you practised it. We try to practice it every time he's off leash because give him a couple of weeks of no or very little practice and the reliability will go down significantly. Erik retains things for much longer without practice. Different dogs and so on. But you know, sometimes it's just really hard to account for things. I've plenty of times seen animals do bizarre things I have trouble explaining. I expect it's mostly my lack of knowledge, but I think that sometimes we have to accept that they aren't robots to just do exactly what we've gone to great pains to teach them to do and nothing else. They no doubt have ups and downs as well, and moments of near insanity. ;)

I guess I don't really believe in 100% in nature. There's always someone doing something that flies in the face of all reason. There's always a chance that your dog is one day going to do something completely unexpected that he's never done before.

I don't remember what rule we were discussing, now.

[Nekhbet]

Corvus I believe in punishment WHEN NEEDED before desexing a dog because we can't be bothered being responsible enough to make sure accidents dont happen.

A dog with fear aggression simply corrected - well bad bad bad trainer. It is the fact a fearful dog was not shown the alternative behavior and encouraged to be confident and happy that it probably snowballed OR the corrections were too low/applied after the behavior had escalated.

I use things like DD collars, correction chains etc with SOME dogs that show fear aggression to settle them down enough that you can actually train them something else. The method Diablo mentioned is for severely aggressive animals that are about to explode uncontrollably. Simply tighten (not until the dog goes blue of course) but just enough pressure you see the dog no longer cares about the target but what is going on. You ignore the dog while you do it - then you release, command, and pat for calming down. Works well and quickly BUT it has to be the right dog and nothing else works. Although there are some morons out there who think this means stringing the dog up literally ... no it's simply a constant pressure that sets off a switch in the dogs brain - calm down or the pressure wont go away. By the way it has no ill effects on the dog if done properly and followed up with the right training.

I feel much better and less stressed to be looking for a way to reward her for looking at me instead of the other dog than when I was waiting for her to aggress so I could give her a correction. A mindset rather than a problem with the method, possibly, but it really made a difference to my outlook when walking and training her.

No dog should be only corrected ... NO DONT DO THAT ... OK then what? A panicking brain having its only method of anxiety release taken away is doomed for an explosion. If you do use corrections you SHOULD follow them up with focus, reward and praise when you show the dog what is wanted. THat is how all training should be. The reason I use corrections is I find the dog learns that behaivior is a definate no no while I'm teaching it, sometimes the praise goes so far but you need the extra incentive of - OK if you do decide to run at that dog there will be a consequence'.

[corvus]

Obviously you haven't handled dogs with dangerous aggression Pax, or understand the ramifications of dog attacks with a stupid comment like that???

If in doubt, act superior and accuse someone else of not knowing as much as you. I'm starting to take this as a sign that my arguments are better when I'm the accused.

Again, no one here is talking about "purely positive" methods. We're talking about the rules of punishment. I will ask you once again to consider the topic when next you post.

[m-j]

Neither dog was/is as carefully trained as yours,

Very much was, about 20+ years ago. This dog with this lesson and several other incidents with other dogs is what made me explore the concept of positive training and become a crossover trainer.

I don't remember what rule we were discussing, now.

The consistancy one (which ever no it was) as the point trying make was I was every consistant which my punishers for looking at the sheep.

I have a sneaking suspicion some dogs are harder to condition than others.

Definately, my Greys are very much like that. It isn't that they are stupid they don't have the prepardness to want to do what I want them to do even when using a highly desirable motivator, that my Kelpie or my GSD has or many of the other dogs I've owned have. The same reason (or one of them) that your hare, my goats are more difficult to do things with than our dogs as a general rule of thumb.

But you know, sometimes it's just really hard to account for things. I've plenty of times seen animals do bizarre things I have trouble explaining. I expect it's mostly my lack of knowledge

I wouldn't mind betting there would very few trainers say that at least one of their dogs in their liftime of training hasn't done something out of character for whatever reason.

We all lack knowledge or more correctly we don't know everything as I'm sure you would know scientists are finding out things all the time that fly in the face of previously believed theories.

but I think that sometimes we have to accept that they aren't robots to just do exactly what we've gone to great pains to teach them to do and nothing else. They no doubt have ups and downs as well, and moments of near insanity.

Yep I think so.

... no it's simply a constant pressure that sets off a switch in the dogs brain - calm down or the pressure wont go away.

Nekbet could you please explain what process the brain follows to do this or point me in a direction where I can read about it?

cheers

M-J

[Diablo]

Obviously you haven't handled dogs with dangerous aggression Pax, or understand the ramifications of dog attacks with a stupid comment like that???

If in doubt, act superior and accuse someone else of not knowing as much as you. I'm starting to take this as a sign that my arguments are better when I'm the accused. :D

Again, no one here is talking about "purely positive" methods. We're talking about the rules of punishment. I will ask you once again to consider the topic when next you post.

You must be kidding If I had to do that I would buy a guinnea pig.

Maybe instead of being so defensive of +R training, you could do some research so your next dog doesn't have to experience this 'training', if you can call it that. Poor frigging dogs.

Corvus, stupid comments as above which I responed need to be highlighted and answered, so what I suggest that you do is screen ALL the posts that don't relate to the topic instead of singling out the debates that you can't win or disagree with

Edited January 10, 2010 by Diablo

[Diablo]

Half of the clicker and treat trainers will and do run a mile when faced with seriously aggressive dogs or at times deem them untrainable.

I'm glad you said "half"! I must be in the other half :D But to be completely honest, you cannot possibly use 'purely positive' methods with any fear or aggression case, there is necessarily an aversive involved in whatever the fear-inducing stimulus is.

We actually have some "purely positive" trainers in SA Aidan, that won't do any jobs relating to aggression and eject dogs/owners from their training classes if any aggression surfaces. Some also reject training applications from GSD, Rottweiler and Doberman owners and crossbreeds of That "half" I would question their training ability in general???. The "good" trainers will do any job presented and have the experience and methods at hand to deal with the specific situation required.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Diablo

[Kelpie-i]

the "good" trainers will do any job presented and have the experience and methods at hand to deal with the specific situation required.

I was trying to stay out of this debate but couldn't help myself.....I wish to add a small and probably worthless comment....

The 'good' trainers are those that can assess the situation as welll as the handler's skills and capabilities and put together a program that does not have a 'one size fits all' approach" and one that is not based on that trainer's preferred or able methods...

[Cosmolo]

What Kelpie i said. I see some dogs and if they were mine i would do things differently to the way i suggest the client handles them and the issue- a technique is only as good as the person implementing it and its no good recommending the best technique in the world (whatever that is) if the owner can't do it correctly.