Coat/ Skin Problems

[centitout]

Get the vet tests done and once you know where you stand then tackle his system from the naturopath side. As you may well know the allergies will not be fixed via cortizone or antihistamines - they are useful to eleviate symptoms but really only mask the problem.

PM me if you want this natropaths details - in Vic but can do hair analysis.

Allergies can not be cured with herbal/homeopathy or any other 'complimentary' treatment, these treatments however can be of a great asset to manage symptoms as can western non-steroid treatments as well as steroids if it does come to that.

Allergies are genetic and can not be cured, they can only be managed.

Hair Analysis via hands over the hair and getting energy readings? *shakes head* Perhaps that $ is better spent at the Dermatologist...

Allergic skin disease is a serious condition and needs to be addressed in an appropriate manner.....with a qualified Dermatologist before the owner starts to use Cortisone.

Hi SAS,

sorry,not sure i agree with you that all allergies are strictly genetic-i have 8 itchy dogs here at the moment and we are scratching(literally) our heads trying to work out the cause.Happened same time last year,th ekids chi was also affected and did not resolve with washes etc,only cortisone.

Only thing i am seeing similarities is that they have all been laying under a big shady Thuja tree( type of conifer) and the itching is confined to contact area ie brisket and esp the elbows.If it was genetic then why is the kids chi affected as well?All of us have developed severe hayfever as well(2 of us had it mild before).

Only happenes at this time of year,and 2 of the affected dogs now(rest are the pups born here) never had a problem at the old house,nor did Bono,he was affected this year too(before he died).Also ,we are surrounded by a big wheat field that has just been harvested and the owner uses a mix of the deadchooks,chook poo ,strw etc from his chicken farm on the field-same time last year,so may be connected to that ????

Edited January 6, 2010 by centitout

[zayda_asher]

Hi SAS,

sorry,not sure i agree with you that all allergies are strictly genetic-i have 8 itchy dogs here at the moment and we are scratching(literally) our heads trying to work out the cause.Happened same time last year,th ekids chi was also affected and did not resolve with washes etc,only cortisone.

Only thing i am seeing similarities is that they have all been laying under a big shady Thuja tree( type of conifer) and the itching is confined to contact area ie brisket and esp the elbows.If it was genetic then why is the kids chi affected as well?All of us have developed severe hayfever as well(2 of us had it mild before).

Only happenes at this time of year,and 2 of the affected dogs now(rest are the pups born here) never had a problem at the old house,nor did Bono,he was affected this year too(before he died).Also ,we are surrounded by a big wheat field that has just been harvested and the owner uses a mix of the deadchooks,chook poo ,strw etc from his chicken farm on the field-same time last year,so may be connected to that ????

If it is the tree then that may well not be an allergy: it can be a contact irritation, like poison ivy... A true allergy is immune mediated and the only way you will have a true allergy is if you have the genetic predisposition. Many itches and irritations we label "allergies" actually are not. This is why its more appropriate to refer to "Adverse food reactions" rather than allergies when discussing food problems: some are intolerance as opposed to true allergies, and it can be hard to tell the difference.

On the other hand you do describe other things that do sound like "hayfever" which is the layman's term for Atopic allergy... they ARE seasonal often, because it is when the pollens are in the air, for example. Changes (e.g. moves) can bring out symptoms that were latent previously because exposure to allergens was lower (just as some people find moving state or country can trigger asthma or eczema they never knew they had: both related to allergies). Some people also miss subtle signs in dogs (and themselves) when they have a very mild case (and you mention mild cases before), and allergy seasons have slowly been worsening in Australia so that more of the "mild" people / animals are effected in more noticeable ways. Allergies often start in a line because a "mild" case is bred and they slowly worse (for some individuals) in each generation. Those that don't suffer, still carry out the genetic material potentially too. The heritability of atopic allergies has been well established scientifically and atopy is much more common in the general population that people realise.

Allergies develop as you age, so if the puppies are young (still in a litter) then it might be more likely that it is some sort of contact irritant rather than a true allergy, or you have a very extreme case.

Farm animals, like chooks, are also common allergens... so a move to an area with more of them may have bought to the fore a previously mild allergy that didn't trouble the person in a less "chooked" area. It may even be that you have some true allergy in some, and something like a contact irritant in others... symptoms can be very similar. Seeing as you have a "family" of dogs there, it would be worth checking what it actually is, so that you know you are not breeding on allergies

Edited January 6, 2010 by zayda_asher

[stormie]

The Dermatologists know that allergies are genetic. The problem is, what a lot of people don't realise, is that any form of allergy, even if mild, has the potential to be carried on into something major. I've heard lots of people say that their dog was fine, so long as it never ate lamb, and then bred that dog. Or the dog was fine, but just got a bit itchy when it lay on a certain type of grass. What they don't realise is that in most of those cases, the dog was allergic.

Obviously there are plants like Wandering Jew where the reaction is more irritant (and Centitout it sounds more like the tree you have may be more chemical irritant rather than true allergy), and not allergic (like how stinging nettle stings us), but those dogs who 'get a bit itchy' from a tree or grass, are quite possibly allergic, and therefore have the potential to make very allergic babies.

Research is currently being done to try and find a marker to enable breeders to screen for the gene, but problem is, atopy can take years to present itself, in which case a dog may have had already been bred several times before then anyway. From what I know and saw, none of Orbit's relatives were allergic like him, so maybe he just got the wrong combination of genes to give him such an over reactive immune system? Who knows...

I find it sad to still here of dogs being bred that the breeder knows to have produced many allergic dogs already. It's a shocking life for the dogs, and very difficult both mentally and financially on owners.

eta: Good post, Zayder - you explained it much better than me!!!

Edited January 6, 2010 by stormie

[zayda_asher]

eta: Good post, Zayder - you explained it much better than me!!!

We make a good "tag team" Some great info in your post like this:

Research is currently being done to try and find a marker to enable breeders to screen for the gene

That's fabulous news! Do you have any more info on it, I'd love to look into it a bit more?

I find it sad to still here of dogs being bred that the breeder knows to have produced many allergic dogs already. It's a shocking life for the dogs, and very difficult both mentally and financially on owners.

Amen to that!

[nabs]

I have bred two dogs that i know of with a skin problem. AJ with his lick granuloma which is a mental issue and a bitch back in the 80's that had terrible skin issues all her life until we desexed her and retired her from showing. Her father also suffered from a similar skin problem. Back then we did not have as advanced testing etc as we do now. We found that Tina's skin broke out more often when her hormones were running.

We found elimination diet etc was not the case in both dogs conditions.

Danois, glad you have some answers. Good luck with Boo. I hope his treatment helps him!

[zayda_asher]

We found that Tina's skin broke out more often when her hormones were running.

It is often recommended to sterilise allergic dogs as, not only should they not be bred from, hormone fluctuations can really effect the skin condition of some.

[stormie]

Research is currently being done to try and find a marker to enable breeders to screen for the gene

That's fabulous news! Do you have any more info on it, I'd love to look into it a bit more?

Nah I don't - I just remember researching Atopy and Genetic and found a uni who was planning it!!

Found it!! LINKY

[zayda_asher]

Research is currently being done to try and find a marker to enable breeders to screen for the gene

That's fabulous news! Do you have any more info on it, I'd love to look into it a bit more?

Nah I don't - I just remember researching Atopy and Genetic and found a uni who was planning it!!

Found it!! LINKY

That's really interesting, thanks... I might contact them and find out "where it is at"

[nabs]

We found that Tina's skin broke out more often when her hormones were running.

It is often recommended to sterilise allergic dogs as, not only should they not be bred from, hormone fluctuations can really effect the skin condition of some.

Yes it certainly was the case. The bitch in question was eventually desexed and magically skin cleared up. Back in the 80's though things were looked at differently. Vets were really not as up on skin problems back then. I have not bred on with that bloodline as I also experienced cardiomyopathy and that was enough for me to ditch it. It was a multiple Best In Show winning bloodline and the dogs were very successful but I could not live with the health issues that were in that particular bloodline.

[zayda_asher]

Yes it certainly was the case. The bitch in question was eventually desexed and magically skin cleared up. Back in the 80's though things were looked at differently. Vets were really not as up on skin problems back then.

Interesting that it cleared up entirely... I wonder if it was something else then, other than allergies, as allergies shouldn't disappear like that? Skin issues are often quite complex! I'm glad it was a relief for her anyway...

I have not bred on with that bloodline as I also experienced cardiomyopathy and that was enough for me to ditch it. It was a multiple Best In Show winning bloodline and the dogs were very successful but I could not live with the health issues that were in that particular bloodline.

Good on you! I wish more people were able to make these decisions... they're often painful, but how great to be reducing health issues in your program!

[centitout]

I'm more inclined in my case to say it is possibly a contact irritant-i worked for years in a nursery and a lot of conifers,grevilleas,natives etc used to cause a few of us grief when we had to repot,maintain them etc.

The kids chi isnt related but is suffering the same symptoms.Since moving to this house,my 13 year old daughter has developed coeliac disease as well,so i'm starting to think there is something going on here,we are surrounded by a wheat field and ringed by orchards at the edge of the field?

None of my other owners have reported any allergy problems ,i am bringing a new male (adult) up soon from a different line,so will be interesting to see what happens after he is here for a while.

Working in a vet clinic i have seen heaps of allergy cases,including a few blue coloured dogs of different breeds,most were working dogs,and quite a few just cross bred SWF with no familial link,and the allergies ranged from grasses through to food,dust etc,so not just in purebreds.

How would you work out which parent was carrying a problem like allergies and would you be better off to scrap both lines in th ecase of a familial link being identified?

[zayda_asher]

Working in a vet clinic i have seen heaps of allergy cases,including a few blue coloured dogs of different breeds,most were working dogs,and quite a few just cross bred SWF with no familial link,and the allergies ranged from grasses through to food,dust etc,so not just in purebreds.

How would you work out which parent was carrying a problem like allergies and would you be better off to scrap both lines in th ecase of a familial link being identified?

No, its certainly not just PB dogs that get allergies, as with anything the right combination of genes will produce it, regardless of the parents' breed status. I myself have a PB and a cross with allergic skin disease.

Unfortunately there's no way to test for markers or anything yet, so it is a bit of guess work. I personally would certainly not breed from any dogs that produced allergies, even if they didn't seem to suffer themselves. And look at close relatives too: if your dog's sister / mum / grandparent etc. has allergies, then your dog may carry the potential to pass those genes on. I've been researching lines / dogs in my breed with allergies and looking at their relation etc. I can certainly see that there are several dogs related to my boy that have allergies or other related issues and that's given me a point to start looking at what I will keep clear of. Unfortunately you have to rely on people to tell you the truth about their dogs and their issues... hiding it away only perpetuates it, but plenty do so. I also see a lot of breeders that don't know why their dog is "covered in bumps" or has "red, itchy toes", or don't even really notice it because the dogs are in kennels and they don't see how much they are irritated. So the more we raise awareness, the more we will be able work on this issue I feel.

[centitout]

I owned the grandmother,the only problem she has is a recurring ear infection in one ear at nearly 7 yrs old.The grandfather as far as i know hasnt had any skin issues,he did end up having a heart problem after a dog bite to his ear became septic and became centalised around his heart (endocarditis??) he is still alive though.None of the 25 pups from that mating have had any allergy problems that i am aware of ,nor have i heard of any on Bono's side(his mother is a sister to the granddams mother) and her owner hasnt had any problems there either.The sire has only been used a few times(imp) here,bu thavent heard anything untoward there.

Can allergies be ruled out only by bloodtests,or is intradermal testing required as well?

Maybe that can be used to screen that line if allergy problem is suspected?

[stormie]

Unfortunately you can't test a dog for allergies. The only real way to get a positive diagnosis for atopy is by eliminating all other possibilities. I believe that you could intradermally or blood screen a perfectly normal dog with the allergy tests and still get positive results, its just that that particular dog doesn't show any symptoms of being allergic. That's why it's important to rule everything else out before you do the final allergen test, to make sure that the results you get are true.

[centitout]

Well, we are going to fence off the trees i think is causing the problem-i tested myself yesterday ,i rubbed the green leaves over my inner forearm,not much of a reaction.But then i rubbed the dried needles on the ground over the other arm-and within a few minutes-stinging red spots,the ends of the dried"leaf" have a sharp needle point on each one.

Cant pull them out unfortunately as its a rental property-the dogs all lay there even though there is shade elsewhere and it is about 3 inches thick with dropped leaves.

Other possibility may be mites?? from the chicken stuff they spread everywhere-dont really know anything about them ,only that they have been scratching since they spread the stuff 2 weeks ago-and yes,i have had my own chooks here since we moved in,so they have been exposed to chickens for over 12 mths.

Polarimine has not helped,so they are off the vets .

[sas]

Hair Analysis via hands over the hair and getting energy readings? *shakes head* Perhaps that $ is better spent at the Dermatologist...

I think the hair analysis technique that they are referring to is a physical analysis of a sample of the hair to a laboratory and a subsequent breakdown of minerals, chemical levels and such that build up in the hair strand itself over time ... its a common tool (and becoming more common) used for humans by Naturopaths (and some Herbalists) at the moment ....

Yeah I don't think they were....What's commonly available and advertised is the one that is done by hands over energy...

If they were, it would be great if they could post a link.....

[sas]

Just an update:

Diagnosis is hives and resulting staph infection so we have a long course of ABs and a very short course of cortisone. Also doing revolution for fleas and mites (on the off chance).

I was going to say it looked like Staph infection, very common to get staph infection with allergies... pair it with hives as well and that makes allergies a very likely culprit!

ETA: For the Dane people: it appears allergies are quite common in the breed, yes?

Seems to be more and more common.

Breeding allergic dogs is only now starting to become frowned upon.

People keep this kind of info to themselves, sadly and I don't want to generalise, it's more pet owners who talk openly about such problems.

Edited January 8, 2010 by sas

[Erny]

Hair Analysis via hands over the hair and getting energy readings? *shakes head* Perhaps that $ is better spent at the Dermatologist...

I think the hair analysis technique that they are referring to is a physical analysis of a sample of the hair to a laboratory and a subsequent breakdown of minerals, chemical levels and such that build up in the hair strand itself over time ... its a common tool (and becoming more common) used for humans by Naturopaths (and some Herbalists) at the moment ....

Yeah I don't think they were....What's commonly available and advertised is the one that is done by hands over energy...

If they were, it would be great if they could post a link.....

I don't think that's the way Barry Templeton analysis hair samples. From what I gather, machines are used. There is something to do with vibration energy or something or other, but I think it is the way Fiona describes it above.

[sas]

We found that Tina's skin broke out more often when her hormones were running.

It is often recommended to sterilise allergic dogs as, not only should they not be bred from, hormone fluctuations can really effect the skin condition of some.

Yes it certainly was the case. The bitch in question was eventually desexed and magically skin cleared up. Back in the 80's though things were looked at differently. Vets were really not as up on skin problems back then. I have not bred on with that bloodline as I also experienced cardiomyopathy and that was enough for me to ditch it. It was a multiple Best In Show winning bloodline and the dogs were very successful but I could not live with the health issues that were in that particular bloodline.

[sas]

Yes it certainly was the case. The bitch in question was eventually desexed and magically skin cleared up. Back in the 80's though things were looked at differently. Vets were really not as up on skin problems back then.

Interesting that it cleared up entirely... I wonder if it was something else then, other than allergies, as allergies shouldn't disappear like that? Skin issues are often quite complex! I'm glad it was a relief for her anyway...

I have not bred on with that bloodline as I also experienced cardiomyopathy and that was enough for me to ditch it. It was a multiple Best In Show winning bloodline and the dogs were very successful but I could not live with the health issues that were in that particular bloodline.

Good on you! I wish more people were able to make these decisions... they're often painful, but how great to be reducing health issues in your program!

I know of a Breeder whose bitches allergies were really good when she was pregnant.

Hormones are an interesting thing aren't they.

Dante is desexed now, his skin is no better or worse than when he was entire.