How Many Breeds?

[WreckitWhippet]

It was good until it became yet another thread about GSD's and schutzhund

[megan_]

It was good until it became yet another thread about GSD's and schutzhund

I've think we've all learnt our lesson to stay away from that topic! That and "why does the GSD have such a slopey back?"

[Diablo]

Very good post Shadow Walker.

Please Diablo dont let this thread end in a Sch debate, which has nothing to do with what the breed was bred for, its only a test isnt it and that wasnt what this thread was started for Thanks

What has this post got to do with the topic may I ask Carlibud???

[carlibud]

Very good post Shadow Walker.

Please Diablo dont let this thread end in a Sch debate, which has nothing to do with what the breed was bred for, its only a test isnt it and that wasnt what this thread was started for Thanks

What has this post got to do with the topic may I ask Carlibud???

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Let me see, how the GSD can be an all rounder, not just a protector or guard dog, but a good family dog etc etc, I think is pretty close to what Shadow Walker was talking about Or thats what I took out of it anyway

Jules P I agree it is amazing how different the working dog herding styles can be, I love to watch dogs, whatever breed they are, working sheep Their concentration level is amazing. Would love to see all those breeds working together, some of my favourite breeds in that list of your's LOL

[SparkyTansy]

My sisters OES likes to round up the other dogs and tried to do so with a helicopter the other day but there is no way in hell he could do his job effectively in the Australian climate, unless of course he was clipped off or only worked in Winter in the colder climates in Australia... i have toyed with taking him to have a look at some sheepies before but (and don't slam me!) i just don't think iwant to brush out the coat afterwards!

My English setters show very little working ability. The younger of the two is very interested in birds but lacks the drive - he would stand there all day if he had to but never advance. When enquiring about the work when he was young (because he was so interested in birds), the club i spoke to was very welcoming and open to having a "show bred" setter there, although mentioned that it was unlikely it would be able to perform the work as effectively as the others. I had to give up before i started as pup was diagnosed with HD. As far as I can tell, just like you can have a show dog that is incredibly keen to do the work, you will have a field bred setter who will not be keen, despite the breeding.

The weimaraner of course does everything right for her breed... high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect. Companion is what is focused upon more in the breed today in Australia, but in Germany a Weimaraner that is incredibly protective, and has passed all working tests as well as titled in conformation are the only ones eligible to breed, and the WEimaraner Klubb has a very strict procedure in place to ensure this is what happens. In a way it is great, but many, many weimaraners in Germany would not be suitable for the average family... in Germany, you have to meet certain criteria to own the breed, and you must go through the club in order to obtain a pup... so what is better? Iam just not sure.

[carlibud]

QUOTE

The weimaraner of course does everything right for her breed... high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect. Companion is what is focused upon more in the breed today in Australia, but in Germany a Weimaraner that is incredibly protective, and has passed all working tests as well as titled in conformation are the only ones eligible to breed, and the WEimaraner Klubb has a very strict procedure in place to ensure this is what happens. In a way it is great, but many, many weimaraners in Germany would not be suitable for the average family... in Germany, you have to meet certain criteria to own the breed, and you must go through the club in order to obtain a pup... so what is better? Iam just not sure.

END QUOTE

This bit I highlighted is what has been said about alot of breeds, the dogs in there original country do these tests on them but would they be suitable for the average family, I dont think so as a general rule of thumb, so as much as people still do some of the work they were bred for alot of people just want a great family pet, not a dog that has the high prey drive that alot of breeds need to have to pass these tests that the Breed Clubs overseas want for our dogs.

Great comment Sparky Tansy and what I've been thinking but couldnt put the words together LOL

I actually saw a woman with her granddaughter at the park today who had her GSD with her, well he was off lead and its right near the main road, but anyway the GrandDaughter was hiding and the dog was running around and standing near her and the Grandmother would find her, and it was actually great to see this big sooky Lala, getting pats off everyone but still doing his protective role and on guard and knowing the family ;) They wouldnt of worked this dog and he would be needed as a guard dog, knowing the sort of people they are involved with, if you know what I mean LOL

[Greytmate]

QUOTE

The weimaraner of course does everything right for her breed... high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect. Companion is what is focused upon more in the breed today in Australia, but in Germany a Weimaraner that is incredibly protective, and has passed all working tests as well as titled in conformation are the only ones eligible to breed, and the WEimaraner Klubb has a very strict procedure in place to ensure this is what happens. In a way it is great, but many, many weimaraners in Germany would not be suitable for the average family... in Germany, you have to meet certain criteria to own the breed, and you must go through the club in order to obtain a pup... so what is better? Iam just not sure.

END QUOTE

This bit I highlighted is what has been said about alot of breeds, the dogs in there original country do these tests on them but would they be suitable for the average family, I dont think so as a general rule of thumb, so as much as people still do some of the work they were bred for alot of people just want a great family pet, not a dog that has the high prey drive that alot of breeds need to have to pass these tests that the Breed Clubs overseas want for our dogs.

A German weim can still be suitable as a pet. But for really committed families and not just the average one.

Breeding for working ability willl not mean that every individual is high drive, and high drive doesn't mean that the dog won't be a good pet for the right family.

The danger with breeding away from high drive dogs is that you risk inadvertantly losing the dogs with good strong solid nerve. Because the less solid dogs will be more likely not to show the high drives on command.

If a family want a large short coated dog, and cannot handle high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect, perhaps they need to look at other breeds. There are plenty to choose from.

[carlibud]

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top.

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

[SpikesPuppy]

One problem with having a huge emphasis on breeding dogs with working ability, high drive etc is that you then reduce the number of homes available and what happens to the breed when not enough homes can be found for the pups? If breeders culled 'excess' pups there';d be an outcry, but on the other hand if there aren't enough homes, then dogs may not be bred from and lines or even breeds will get lost.

With the greater number of people owning dogs of all breeds for companionship now days (as well as legal restrictions in many countries/regions on hunting), it becomes a bit of a double edged sword, doesn't it?? Do you alter the breed so it fits into society or do you risk losing it???

[Greytmate]

If the line alters too much then maybe it is lost anyway.

[SpikesPuppy]

If the line alters too much then maybe it is lost anyway.

And that is the conundrum isn't it?

[centitout]

If the line alters too much then maybe it is lost anyway.

And that is the conundrum isn't it?

The majority of bloodhounds are pets only,very few people want to work them,so personally i like them to be a little lower drive (not lacking though) and definately NOT over the top-although that can be the way they are trained.

I like mine to be a passive response dog,they sit and nudge when they have identified the "victim". I couldnt think of anything worse than a hound that is so totally focused on sniffing everything in sight that is just not a joy to live with,and unfortunately you do see some like that in the USA where there is a bigger emphasis on working lines .Other responses too like jumping up/knocking down victims( some are trained to do that in USA) also have no place here,but then we are unlikely to ever have dogs trained to find/aprehend anyway.

I think we need to maintain working ability ,but not at the expense of losing a breed because they are too much for the average owner.I dont just love my breed for their nose/working ability.

[SparkyTansy]

QUOTE

The weimaraner of course does everything right for her breed... high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect. Companion is what is focused upon more in the breed today in Australia, but in Germany a Weimaraner that is incredibly protective, and has passed all working tests as well as titled in conformation are the only ones eligible to breed, and the WEimaraner Klubb has a very strict procedure in place to ensure this is what happens. In a way it is great, but many, many weimaraners in Germany would not be suitable for the average family... in Germany, you have to meet certain criteria to own the breed, and you must go through the club in order to obtain a pup... so what is better? Iam just not sure.

END QUOTE

This bit I highlighted is what has been said about alot of breeds, the dogs in there original country do these tests on them but would they be suitable for the average family, I dont think so as a general rule of thumb, so as much as people still do some of the work they were bred for alot of people just want a great family pet, not a dog that has the high prey drive that alot of breeds need to have to pass these tests that the Breed Clubs overseas want for our dogs.

A German weim can still be suitable as a pet. But for really committed families and not just the average one.

Breeding for working ability willl not mean that every individual is high drive, and high drive doesn't mean that the dog won't be a good pet for the right family.

The danger with breeding away from high drive dogs is that you risk inadvertantly losing the dogs with good strong solid nerve. Because the less solid dogs will be more likely not to show the high drives on command.

If a family want a large short coated dog, and cannot handle high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect, perhaps they need to look at other breeds. There are plenty to choose from.

Precisely Greytmate - COMMITTED families - which is exactly why the German club has strict requirements in order to be able to own a weimaraner... they have recognised that the weimaraner has specific requirements, and in order to maintain the integrity of the breed, they have made it so that the owner suits the dog, not the other way around. In Australia, UK, US and many parts of Europe, these requirements do not need to be met.... in order to ensure that the weimaraner is a happy "pet" first, they have curbed the temperament somewhat in order to ensure a family friendly companion. Most of the time, the Weimaraner will still retain the intense desire to be with their immediate family, which is why many think that the breed is a little high strung and suffers separation anxiety. In truth separation anxiety is quite rare in the weimaraner - just that their desire to be with their family is strong, and so are they However I do agree with you about breeding away from high drive can result in nervous dogs,and I have seen that in many lines in the past... but more recently I have seen less of the nervousness and more friendly disposition. I like a weimaraner somewhere in between... strong nerve, wary of strangers but intensely friendly with those they know well. Lucky for me my weimaraner is exactly that.

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top. :rolleyes:

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

Weimaraners can be a high maintenance breed Carlibud, but less so now than before due to being quite selective with temperaments. However anyone looking to get a weimaraner, for example, would need to be aware of the possibility of getting a high drive, high energy dog... and be prepared for it. I do not think that everyone is. Before i got Ari our Weimaraners were all high energy with an off switch... friendly with strangers but also nervous of certain things. When I got Ari she had nerves of steel the moment she walked out of the crate at the airport she owned the world... She is certainly a lot closer to the weims in Germany than her happy-go-lucky cousins... so what is more ideal? if i breed with her, do i choose a dog with a softer temperament to suit the Australian Family, or do i find new owners who want a weim that will do what it was bred for? (even if they aren't going to put any of that into action).

One problem with having a huge emphasis on breeding dogs with working ability, high drive etc is that you then reduce the number of homes available and what happens to the breed when not enough homes can be found for the pups? If breeders culled 'excess' pups there';d be an outcry, but on the other hand if there aren't enough homes, then dogs may not be bred from and lines or even breeds will get lost.

With the greater number of people owning dogs of all breeds for companionship now days (as well as legal restrictions in many countries/regions on hunting), it becomes a bit of a double edged sword, doesn't it?? Do you alter the breed so it fits into society or do you risk losing it???

Great post SP... however it is down to us, as breeders, to dictate what we want from our owners. Again looking at the german weimaraner club, YOU have to meet THEIR requirements. They certainly do not lack lines and prospective owners but they do have to work harder in order to ensure their dogs are what they have always been,by proving they can work, meet conformation and be an effective guardian but also companion to their families. If it was the will of breeders and clubs in Australia to go in the direction of proving that their breed can work as it did years ago, then they would need to be more selective in their owners. Would it ensure that families who want that breed would take on the responsibility and work hard to meet the requirements? Or, in this "I want it now and I have the right to have it now" society we live in, would it mean the downfall for our breeds?

Sorry for turning this into a thread about Weimaraners, but they are a good example of a breed which has gone in different directions... and although the German clubs protocol on owning a weimaraner may be seen as elitist, it certainly works in protecting their breed from people who shouldn't own them.

ETA... as much as it pains me to say this, we are doing exactly what media says we are doing, if we continue to breed for dogs with less temperament traits required for the job they used to do... we are breeding for a traditional look...

ok flame suit on...

Edited January 5, 2010 by SparkyTansy

[Kavik]

With the number of breeds whose 'job' is companionship, certainly people who do not want a high drive high energy breed can pick one of those instead of people watering down the smaller number of working breeds? Why change the breed so that it is less likely to be able to work just so that joe public can handle it?

[mita]

If the line alters too much then maybe it is lost anyway.

An interesting transition to 'show dogs' was in the working collies of Scotland & over the border into England. In later years, Queen Victoria was sometimes given the blame because she took in working collies as her beloved pets....& even showed some of them. There's great pics on this site of the working collies turned pets & sometimes showdogs by Queen Victoria. It's interesting what they looked like, compared with the border & rough collies of today.

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Perm...enVictoria.html

[SpikesPuppy]

QUOTE

The weimaraner of course does everything right for her breed... high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect. Companion is what is focused upon more in the breed today in Australia, but in Germany a Weimaraner that is incredibly protective, and has passed all working tests as well as titled in conformation are the only ones eligible to breed, and the WEimaraner Klubb has a very strict procedure in place to ensure this is what happens. In a way it is great, but many, many weimaraners in Germany would not be suitable for the average family... in Germany, you have to meet certain criteria to own the breed, and you must go through the club in order to obtain a pup... so what is better? Iam just not sure.

END QUOTE

This bit I highlighted is what has been said about alot of breeds, the dogs in there original country do these tests on them but would they be suitable for the average family, I dont think so as a general rule of thumb, so as much as people still do some of the work they were bred for alot of people just want a great family pet, not a dog that has the high prey drive that alot of breeds need to have to pass these tests that the Breed Clubs overseas want for our dogs.

A German weim can still be suitable as a pet. But for really committed families and not just the average one.

Breeding for working ability willl not mean that every individual is high drive, and high drive doesn't mean that the dog won't be a good pet for the right family.

The danger with breeding away from high drive dogs is that you risk inadvertantly losing the dogs with good strong solid nerve. Because the less solid dogs will be more likely not to show the high drives on command.

If a family want a large short coated dog, and cannot handle high prey drive, copious amounts of energy and endurance, the desire to retrieve, the desire to chase, the desire to be a companion and the desire to protect, perhaps they need to look at other breeds. There are plenty to choose from.

Precisely Greytmate - COMMITTED families - which is exactly why the German club has strict requirements in order to be able to own a weimaraner... they have recognised that the weimaraner has specific requirements, and in order to maintain the integrity of the breed, they have made it so that the owner suits the dog, not the other way around. In Australia, UK, US and many parts of Europe, these requirements do not need to be met.... in order to ensure that the weimaraner is a happy "pet" first, they have curbed the temperament somewhat in order to ensure a family friendly companion. Most of the time, the Weimaraner will still retain the intense desire to be with their immediate family, which is why many think that the breed is a little high strung and suffers separation anxiety. In truth separation anxiety is quite rare in the weimaraner - just that their desire to be with their family is strong, and so are they However I do agree with you about breeding away from high drive can result in nervous dogs,and I have seen that in many lines in the past... but more recently I have seen less of the nervousness and more friendly disposition. I like a weimaraner somewhere in between... strong nerve, wary of strangers but intensely friendly with those they know well. Lucky for me my weimaraner is exactly that.

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top. :rolleyes:

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

Weimaraners can be a high maintenance breed Carlibud, but less so now than before due to being quite selective with temperaments. However anyone looking to get a weimaraner, for example, would need to be aware of the possibility of getting a high drive, high energy dog... and be prepared for it. I do not think that everyone is. Before i got Ari our Weimaraners were all high energy with an off switch... friendly with strangers but also nervous of certain things. When I got Ari she had nerves of steel the moment she walked out of the crate at the airport she owned the world... She is certainly a lot closer to the weims in Germany than her happy-go-lucky cousins... so what is more ideal? if i breed with her, do i choose a dog with a softer temperament to suit the Australian Family, or do i find new owners who want a weim that will do what it was bred for? (even if they aren't going to put any of that into action).

One problem with having a huge emphasis on breeding dogs with working ability, high drive etc is that you then reduce the number of homes available and what happens to the breed when not enough homes can be found for the pups? If breeders culled 'excess' pups there';d be an outcry, but on the other hand if there aren't enough homes, then dogs may not be bred from and lines or even breeds will get lost.

With the greater number of people owning dogs of all breeds for companionship now days (as well as legal restrictions in many countries/regions on hunting), it becomes a bit of a double edged sword, doesn't it?? Do you alter the breed so it fits into society or do you risk losing it???

Great post SP... however it is down to us, as breeders, to dictate what we want from our owners. Again looking at the german weimaraner club, YOU have to meet THEIR requirements. They certainly do not lack lines and prospective owners but they do have to work harder in order to ensure their dogs are what they have always been,by proving they can work, meet conformation and be an effective guardian but also companion to their families. If it was the will of breeders and clubs in Australia to go in the direction of proving that their breed can work as it did years ago, then they would need to be more selective in their owners. Would it ensure that families who want that breed would take on the responsibility and work hard to meet the requirements? Or, in this "I want it now and I have the right to have it now" society we live in, would it mean the downfall for our breeds?

Sorry for turning this into a thread about Weimaraners, but they are a good example of a breed which has gone in different directions... and although the German clubs protocol on owning a weimaraner may be seen as elitist, it certainly works in protecting their breed from people who shouldn't own them.

ETA... as much as it pains me to say this, we are doing exactly what media says we are doing, if we continue to breed for dogs with less temperament traits required for the job they used to do... we are breeding for a traditional look...

ok flame suit on...

I think what the Weim club in Germany is doing is fantastic BUT I don't know if something like that would work in a country like Australia? We (pedigree dogs) are already losing out in numbers to designer breeds and BYB dogs - if pedigree breeders heaped more restrictions/requirements onto prospective owners, would they still bother? Of course we (breeders) dictate who buys our puppies but we also have to be realistic. I am lucky in that my breed is pretty adaptable (and always has been, even as a pure working animal), and with a fairly basic level of training and an acceptance of it's nature (a terrier, NOT a biddable gundog or working dog for eg), they will fit into most situations. But for the breeders of the 'harder' dogs, those who do require a higher level of understanding where do they do?

I'm not saying, for example, make the Weim into a Labrador or a Golden Retriever, but honestly, do you think that if there was a program like Germany's in place here in Australia that all the puppies born would be placed??

I don't think that Australians take well to being told what they can and cannot do or own.

Look at the British Bulldog as another example- a dog who's current temperament is a complete turnaround from the original breed- to make a dog to fit in as a companion.

[SparkyTansy]

SP i totally agree with you... I am on the fence about the whole thing... weim club in Germany is doing a great job but i don't think we could turn around and tell Australians that they can no longer own certain breeds unless they do x, y and z... andto be honest I don't mind the weim being a more biddible, friendly dog all round, because I think that they can be under a lot of stress constantly wanting to protect their families but not having an outlet by working... however it does sadden me that we are slowly losing the incredibly amazing temperament that enables this breed to be so versatile but at the same time, at least i know it's in good hands in it's country of origin and that at least it will never be truely lost so long as they are left to do things their way.

[BJean]

With the number of breeds whose 'job' is companionship, certainly people who do not want a high drive high energy breed can pick one of those instead of people watering down the smaller number of working breeds? Why change the breed so that it is less likely to be able to work just so that joe public can handle it?

It ultimately comes down to those who choose to breed and what/why they breed for.

So many times I have had Joe Public ask me if I would ever breed to dilute the temp of CAO

or whether it would be a good idea if they did

and I go nope, no way.

Buy a newfoundland, get something else.

You want a breed's look but not what it is, sorry go look elsewhere.

I'm proud of the dogs' heritage and what they are capable of,

and in truth it is what draws people to the breed (actually any breed)

in the first instance -

All breeds have their foundation forebear's stories of legend,

often based around some heroic romantic miracle or impressive physical feat.

imo my breeds are special because they are not mere 'legend encapsulated' -

they really can do what they were/are bred to do

and they look like now, what they did 'back then'.

Edited January 5, 2010 by lilli

[Greytmate]

I think what the Weim club in Germany is doing is fantastic BUT I don't know if something like that would work in a country like Australia? We (pedigree dogs) are already losing out in numbers to designer breeds and BYB dogs - if pedigree breeders heaped more restrictions/requirements onto prospective owners, would they still bother?

Putting restrictions on who can buy would not work in isolation, it is part of a sales process.

What they have done is build up their brand 'Weimeraner' and make it as good quality as they can. They market that, and the restrictions don't come in until after the buyer has decided what they want and the salesperson qualifies the sale (or more accurately, the breeder enforces restrictions).

No different from selling Mercedes. The manufactureres and marketers make people desire it. But not everyone that wants one will qualify to buy. With a car the only qualifier is price, with a Weimeraner it is price and the restrictions. They don't lose sales, the restrictions make the product even more exclusive and attractive. They are not for Joe Average, but neither are most of the other finer things in life, and the Weimeraner buyers know that.

In Australia, we don't see many dogs being sold that way. In our business we have made a real effort to build up our brand, and that makes it easier for us to sell more dogs, and people want our dogs even though we have restrictions too. But if you have the restrictions without the marketing and the quality control, it isn't going to work.

[Dogsfevr]

Whilst Germany may have there methods they are also have many breed specific bans or breeds that face hefty insurance requirements or can only live in set regions.

According to this law, certain breeds as well as cross breeds among them or with other dogs must not be introduced or imported into Germany. This applies to the breeds

* pitbull terrier

* American Staffordshire terrier

* Staffordshire bull terrier

* bull terrier

The prohibition of introduction or importation into Germany also affects other breeds suspected of being dangerous according to the laws of the German Land where the dog is permanently kept.

Such breeds are listed by the single German Laender and may therefore differ from Land to Land. In statutory orders of the single German Laender, the following breeds are regularly considered dangerous:

* alano

* American bulldog

* bullmastiff

* cane corso

* dogo Argentino

* dogue de Bordeaux

* fila Brasiliero

* mastiff

* mastin Espanol

* mastino Napoletano

* pittbull bandog

* perro de presa Canario

* perro de presa Mallorcin

* Rhodesian ridgeback

* Tosa Inu.

Obviously some of these breeds are also banned in Oz but most arent.

Rottis also face stringent testing before being allowed to be a pet otherwise facing strict law requirements