How Many Breeds?

[centitout]

I also wouldnt have a problem with hunting the ones that showed an inclination for that-i just dont have the time,suitable propeties or really a clue as how to train them-after all,THAT is what they were bred for.

[fifi]

Here's an opportunity for the Wolfhound peoples....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8436670.stm

Don't think I could hunt wolves. Rabbit and hare at least are feral here, and a quick death in the jaws of a hound seems kinder than the diseases and poisons used on them. But I couldn't do wolves, not even when wolf hunting was a large part of why the modern Borzoi exists.

Bit of a contradiction I know, when I'm in support of functional tests, but the culling of a species now under as much pressure as the wolf is not something that appeals.

thank you, just what I wanted to say, only worded better than my foggy brain would have assembled today

The truth is that many hunting dogs are species specific - their size, speed, method was developed to hunt a particular prey.

It's one reason why I don't like it when my dogs bring down a rabbit - because the rabbit is not really what these big boned hounds were bred to hunt, rabbits turn so fast that wolfhounds are in danger or tripping. And of course rabbits come with holes ready made to break legs.

I really think that the big critters like deer are more suited to their abilities. I can only picture a wolf hunt with the dogs, and am happy to relegate that to the breed's history.

fifi

[poodlefan]

Sandgrubber:

But what would you say about a Labbie who aces Guide Dog training and ends out with a full-time job . . . but has a hard mouth, no interest in birds, and doesn't like water?

That it should not be bred from.. and of course as a Guide Dog it couldn't be. A hard mouth on a mouthy breed is not a desireable asset. I think its imperative that breed standards be carefully written to incorporate the attributes desireable in the breed and that any dog that does not come close to the standard should not be bred from.

I find the idea of a generic temperament in all different breed conformations far from desireable. I agree with those who say some of the attributes a number of breeds were developed to display have had their time but a retriever with a hard mouth and no desire to retrieve is not a direction I'd like to see those breeds taken. Same goes for inappropriate levels of dog aggression in any breed developed to spend its time working and being in close confines with other dogs. That's most of Groups 3 and 4 for a start.

What of the dogs who were originally cart dogs or spit dogs . . . and the RSPCA saw their work banned in the 19th or early 20th century . I think many would be happy if something like their work was brought back as dog sport.

Carting is dog sport in the USA.

Edited January 3, 2010 by poodlefan

[Elfin]

It is not legal to hunt deer with dogs in most countries now, but in some places Deerhounds are still used to hunt game.

Here in Australia we strive to keep the drive to chase by lure coursing and lure racing our dogs.

You can hunt deer in victoria with bloodhounds and beagles only-if they dont have papers they have to undergo an "assessment" and be passed as mainly bloodhound or beagle.

That's really interesting, centitout. Do the beagles and bloodhounds track the deer for the hunters to shoot? That might be the difference as to why people can't hunt deer with Deerhounds (or other breeds).

[Rysup]

Aside from a distinct lack of barges in Australia, I have no doubt about my Kees foghorn capabilities. They are very sure on their feet, can live in confined spaces easily and are a great watch dog, combined with a family pet.

The Lhasa's are very much still able to raise the alarm of intruders. Just ask my neighbours

[Greytmate]

Racing line greyhounds in Australia have evolved a little away from the original greyhound that was bred to course hare. Over the last 80 years the soft wide sand tracks that we race the dogs on has meant that a much faster and finer breed has evolved out of a dog that was once built to turn tightly at speed and catch a big hare in its huge mouth.

Which is why I do not agree with lure coursing for Australian-bred ex racing greyhounds. It is dangerous for them and likely to cause injury to them. They are a different dog now to the one that was bred to course over hard ground and change direction quickly.

But as far as all breeds go, there is very little visible difference between a working line and show line dog. Some race bred dogs would do well in dog shows, but there are some that wouldn't that are still well-worth breeding from. The show standard doesn't hold much relevance to people that breed racing dogs as there are better ways to tell if a dog is high quality or not. But it is still good to see racing dogs in the show ring doing well.

Unlike some other breeds, the best working temperament for greyhounds is also the best pet temperament for greyhounds. So it is in pet owner's favour that the breed is selected for excellent working ability alone, which requires a specific a combination of mental and physical qualities.

[BJean]

It's complicated, and the world changes. It's inspiring to see a kelpie or BC working sheep, or a huskie pulling a sled or cart. But what would you say about a Labbie who aces Guide Dog training and ends out with a full-time job . . . but has a hard mouth, no interest in birds, and doesn't like water? or becomes a sniffer dog, or a truffle hunting dog? or simply acts as the welcoming committee for a boutique winery? Or a bluey who isn't all that good with livestock, but makes a wonderful guard dog? As for the breeds whose work was fighting or bear baiting, or some other awful blood sport, so glad most of them no longer do the work they're bred for. Or hunting runaway slaves (Filho brasilieoro). What of the dogs who were originally cart dogs or spit dogs . . . and the RSPCA saw their work banned in the 19th or early 20th century . .. . I think many would be happy if something like their work was brought back as dog sport.

ahh filas such beauitful dogs, must be a way I can get one ...

no seriously, although it sounds horrid 'hunting runaway slaves', the fila's job was to hold them unharmed ...

their guard and protection work is still applicable though

[centitout]

It is not legal to hunt deer with dogs in most countries now, but in some places Deerhounds are still used to hunt game.

Here in Australia we strive to keep the drive to chase by lure coursing and lure racing our dogs.

You can hunt deer in victoria with bloodhounds and beagles only-if they dont have papers they have to undergo an "assessment" and be passed as mainly bloodhound or beagle.

That's really interesting, centitout. Do the beagles and bloodhounds track the deer for the hunters to shoot? That might be the difference as to why people can't hunt deer with Deerhounds (or other breeds).

Yes,

they trail the deer,goats etc,then bail them up till the hunters get there-i only have a very basic knowledge though.They generally wont go in and kill/maul them which is why they are the only breeds now allowed.

[Elfin]

Thank you, centitout.

Deerhounds wouldn't wait for the hunter , but after the hunt were expected to go home and sit by the fire with the children. They have historically been kept in pairs and also work with other dogs, so are also expected to get along with everyone.

[Bindii]

There are plenty of show line Samoyeds being used for herding and sledding.

Both mine will be tried in herding when I get my hands on some reindeer

I would also love to try sledding one day too.

Does this count as doing what they were bred for?

They certainly did all do a brilliant job, the club was paid for the entertainment that the sammies and santa brought to kinders/schools/shopping centres etc etc.

So that's 'working' right!?

They were also bred to sleep in tents in the snow to keep their owners warm, and they do that well too

[whippets]

Racing line greyhounds in Australia have evolved a little away from the original greyhound that was bred to course hare. Over the last 80 years the soft wide sand tracks that we race the dogs on has meant that a much faster and finer breed has evolved out of a dog that was once built to turn tightly at speed and catch a big hare in its huge mouth.

Which is why I do not agree with lure coursing for Australian-bred ex racing greyhounds. It is dangerous for them and likely to cause injury to them. They are a different dog now to the one that was bred to course over hard ground and change direction quickly.

But as far as all breeds go, there is very little visible difference between a working line and show line dog. Some race bred dogs would do well in dog shows, but there are some that wouldn't that are still well-worth breeding from. The show standard doesn't hold much relevance to people that breed racing dogs as there are better ways to tell if a dog is high quality or not. But it is still good to see racing dogs in the show ring doing well.

Unlike some other breeds, the best working temperament for greyhounds is also the best pet temperament for greyhounds. So it is in pet owner's favour that the breed is selected for excellent working ability alone, which requires a specific a combination of mental and physical qualities.

Depends on the dog. I knew trainers who coursed their greys that wern't keen on the lure. My ex brood bitches mother was a top racer and one of the best coursers in the state. Her name was Barb's Melody and also one of the best bitch lines of the 80's and early to mid 90's.

I don't race dogs anymore but go to the trial track with my whippets to see the vet. I have noticed over the last 20 years that the racing greyhound today is a much bigger dog than say ones from the late 1980's and prior. I bet they carry more injuries than before as well because of their size. With that also being said, the show greyhound is a bigger dog again compared to the racing grey.

Anyway back on topic.......My whippets could do the job they were bred for easily.

[Kelpie Kisses]

I have 4 Australian Kelpies..only one of which I would consider shows any sign of possibly being a good worker.........They are definitely town kelpies.......Having said that, I have a friend who breeds & shows Australian Kelpies & Australian Stumpy tailed cattledogs. She works on a feedlot, and most of her "showdogs" work with her on the feedlot. She has a Grand Champion Stumpy who works sheep, camels, goats, or just about anything that comes through the feedlot...these dogs are showdogs, but first & foremost they must be able to earn their keep.

[Diablo]

Personally I think quite a few folk who think their 'show' line dogs can work are deluding themselves.

A beautiful but timid Dobermann, a GSD that hides behind its owners legs when strangers approach, a hard mouthed Retriever.. they're all out there.

There is an old wives tale that says the darker a Golden Retriever, the greater it's instinct for work. Makes you wonder where that breed is heading.

My view if the dog can work, show us

It's complicated, and the world changes. It's inspiring to see a kelpie or BC working sheep, or a huskie pulling a sled or cart. But what would you say about a Labbie who aces Guide Dog training and ends out with a full-time job . . . but has a hard mouth, no interest in birds, and doesn't like water? or becomes a sniffer dog, or a truffle hunting dog? or simply acts as the welcoming committee for a boutique winery? Or a bluey who isn't all that good with livestock, but makes a wonderful guard dog? As for the breeds whose work was fighting or bear baiting, or some other awful blood sport, so glad most of them no longer do the work they're bred for. Or hunting runaway slaves (Filho brasilieoro). What of the dogs who were originally cart dogs or spit dogs . . . and the RSPCA saw their work banned in the 19th or early 20th century . .. . I think many would be happy if something like their work was brought back as dog sport.

Many dogs like to have a job to do and most people like to see a dog doing a job. As the landscape changes, the function of dogs changes. Much as I admire old-fashioned working dogs, I don't think we need to direct all breeding to creating museum replicas of 19th century working dogs: Especially given that most puppy buyers just want a healthy companion with some-sort-of personality and a certain look. Great if some breeders want to concentrate on the work described in the breed standard . . . but no need to condemn those who take another path. And I think we need to work harder to develop new jobs for dogs to do as their historical functions become obsolete.

I am in favour of temperament testing . . . ring presence is not a great sorter for temperament. But I think there's room for tests that go broader than testing for the breed's historical function.

I agree with the Sandgrubber's statement (bolded) which raises an answer to the OP's question regarding the continual slamming of GSD breedings. It's not an issue if some GSD breeders take a path away from the full working standards to suit a popular market, but the issue is created when those breeders fail to disclose what they are breeding for. Taking a path contrary to the breed standards is not "breeding to type" or reproducing good examples of the breed as some breeders have us believe. If they were honest about their breeding paths, much of the heated exchanges and condemnation would be greatly reduced.

[Akayla]

I agree that breeders should be honest about what they do. I dont know about everyone but I think most breeders talk at length with their puppy buyers about what they have done with the dogs, they also hopefully should ask them what they want the puppy for. If the buyer wants something specific they need to be honest with the breeder when they come to see the dogs.

Im one of the people that dont think that Schutzhund is the ONLY way (although a good way if you have access to it) to test a GSD to see if it fits. That for me is where the arguements start as I am condemed by others for having weak nerved dogs. I think I put alot of effort in finding other ways to test this in my dogs that I use for breeding.

For example a dog can be assessed by a proffessional well recognised trainer to see if the drives exist (a dog with weak nerve or low drive is easily spotted then). I think the best ultimate way though is for that dog to be tested in real life.

A GSD is an all rounder and in my IMHO needs to be exposed to all sorts of challanges not just sport but as much as humanly possible. A dog that comes out on the other side of this calm and self assured regardless is in my books a good example of the breed. The dog takes everything in its stride every single day and adapts to what ever his/her master requires.

Id like to see more available for us to use for assessment (certainly would make life easier) but in the mean time I will continue to use what I can as a way for assessment and explain this to the buyer and let them make up their own mind. I have yet to have a compaint.

I do not see my dogs as inferior and weak in any way and considering where they have been placed what they have done I am quite proud of their "work ability".

[carlibud]

Some great posts and very thought provoking .

Certainly learnt what alot of breeds were actually bred for, very interesting.

[Diablo]

I agree that breeders should be honest about what they do. I dont know about everyone but I think most breeders talk at length with their puppy buyers about what they have done with the dogs, they also hopefully should ask them what they want the puppy for. If the buyer wants something specific they need to be honest with the breeder when they come to see the dogs.

Im one of the people that dont think that Schutzhund is the ONLY way (although a good way if you have access to it) to test a GSD to see if it fits. That for me is where the arguements start as I am condemed by others for having weak nerved dogs. I think I put alot of effort in finding other ways to test this in my dogs that I use for breeding.

For example a dog can be assessed by a proffessional well recognised trainer to see if the drives exist (a dog with weak nerve or low drive is easily spotted then). I think the best ultimate way though is for that dog to be tested in real life.

A GSD is an all rounder and in my IMHO needs to be exposed to all sorts of challanges not just sport but as much as humanly possible. A dog that comes out on the other side of this calm and self assured regardless is in my books a good example of the breed. The dog takes everything in its stride every single day and adapts to what ever his/her master requires.

Id like to see more available for us to use for assessment (certainly would make life easier) but in the mean time I will continue to use what I can as a way for assessment and explain this to the buyer and let them make up their own mind. I have yet to have a compaint.

I do not see my dogs as inferior and weak in any way and considering where they have been placed what they have done I am quite proud of their "work ability".

The Schutzhund testing routine is not the only way that a GSD can be evaluated for type and correctness I agree Shadow Walker, I believe in that statement you are correct. Most if not all of the Australian service/police and security dogs are not Schutzhund titled which accounts for most of the service dogs overseas also. Schutzhund as a testing process does provide multi tasking phases that when used as a test, does evaluate a dogs strengths, weaknesess and correctness fairly quickly. It provides a uniformity in procedure where external tests may result in incorrect overall assessment. Tests set by individuals will vary considerably and may be too easy or too hard for the average good example of the breed to pass. The "uniformity" of the Schutzund test provides a level playing field for each and every dog tested to be put through exactly the same paces across the board, and as a testing standard, the Schutzhund test provides that advantage.

The training phase of Schutzhund is essentially what weeds out the faulty dogs, not the finished product, as the finished product can be overly polished by exceptional training and effort. Overly weak nerved dogs with temperament issues surface in Schutzhund obediance being the basic stage. As a breed worthiness tool, many would fail the basic of tests to be deemed not suitable for breeding as the basic stage is generally commenced with a green dog. A dog has to pass one phase in order to be promoted to the next and easliy determines the dog's character as training evolves.

A madatory standard test like Schutzhund provides transparency in the GSD world which openly demonstrates the breedworthiness of particular blood lines. If for example "Mary vom Showdog" was up for testing and she feared the jumps and was fear aggressive with other dogs, it would openly expose that Mary is not a bitch you would want puppies from and word of mouth alone would eliminate her from reproducing her faults. There are many other areas where testing standards provide advantages also. A certificate of proof that a dog has passed the required tests for breedworthiness does hold a higher rating than a breeders opinion of the quality of their breeding stock which may not be correct.

[Akayla]

I agree that breeders should be honest about what they do. I dont know about everyone but I think most breeders talk at length with their puppy buyers about what they have done with the dogs, they also hopefully should ask them what they want the puppy for. If the buyer wants something specific they need to be honest with the breeder when they come to see the dogs.

Im one of the people that dont think that Schutzhund is the ONLY way (although a good way if you have access to it) to test a GSD to see if it fits. That for me is where the arguements start as I am condemed by others for having weak nerved dogs. I think I put alot of effort in finding other ways to test this in my dogs that I use for breeding.

For example a dog can be assessed by a proffessional well recognised trainer to see if the drives exist (a dog with weak nerve or low drive is easily spotted then). I think the best ultimate way though is for that dog to be tested in real life.

A GSD is an all rounder and in my IMHO needs to be exposed to all sorts of challanges not just sport but as much as humanly possible. A dog that comes out on the other side of this calm and self assured regardless is in my books a good example of the breed. The dog takes everything in its stride every single day and adapts to what ever his/her master requires.

Id like to see more available for us to use for assessment (certainly would make life easier) but in the mean time I will continue to use what I can as a way for assessment and explain this to the buyer and let them make up their own mind. I have yet to have a compaint.

I do not see my dogs as inferior and weak in any way and considering where they have been placed what they have done I am quite proud of their "work ability".

The Schutzhund testing routine is not the only way that a GSD can be evaluated for type and correctness I agree Shadow Walker, I believe in that statement you are correct. Most if not all of the Australian service/police and security dogs are not Schutzhund titled which accounts for most of the service dogs overseas also. Schutzhund as a testing process does provide multi tasking phases that when used as a test, does evaluate a dogs strengths, weaknesess and correctness fairly quickly. It provides a uniformity in procedure where external tests may result in incorrect overall assessment. Tests set by individuals will vary considerably and may be too easy or too hard for the average good example of the breed to pass. The "uniformity" of the Schutzund test provides a level playing field for each and every dog tested to be put through exactly the same paces across the board, and as a testing standard, the Schutzhund test provides that advantage.

The training phase of Schutzhund is essentially what weeds out the faulty dogs, not the finished product, as the finished product can be overly polished by exceptional training and effort. Overly weak nerved dogs with temperament issues surface in Schutzhund obediance being the basic stage. As a breed worthiness tool, many would fail the basic of tests to be deemed not suitable for breeding as the basic stage is generally commenced with a green dog. A dog has to pass one phase in order to be promoted to the next and easliy determines the dog's character as training evolves.

A madatory standard test like Schutzhund provides transparency in the GSD world which openly demonstrates the breedworthiness of particular blood lines. If for example "Mary vom Showdog" was up for testing and she feared the jumps and was fear aggressive with other dogs, it would openly expose that Mary is not a bitch you would want puppies from and word of mouth alone would eliminate her from reproducing her faults. There are many other areas where testing standards provide advantages also. A certificate of proof that a dog has passed the required tests for breedworthiness does hold a higher rating than a breeders opinion of the quality of their breeding stock which may not be correct.

Agreed and as I have said many a times before having a test either Schutzhund or something of equal value would be excelent for the breed - especially in todays day and age.

I wont belittle breeders though that find other means especially at the moment with all the issues going on. So long as they are doing what it takes to create good examples of the breed then I commend them.

As far as the WL vs SL I have owned both and others "versions" of the breed. Each has its own draw backs and really they can both be faulty. But realistically there will always be people that breed extremes. As sad as it is it does fall to the puppy buyers/show buyers/work buyers/sports buyers to ask the right questions and find a breeder they are comfortable with.

Ive had extremes of both myself. A SL bitch (that really I always knew she would have issues from bad breeding - her mother failed breed survey and couldnt be taken to the club because of fear aggression amoungst other thing from being kicked at the club) who had extreme anxiety. Ive had WL that had many health issues (skin, hips and elbows, and arthritis every where) as well as being very over the top in behaviour and unable to work at all. My czech bitch and a couple of show lines have been closest to how I imagine the breed. The Czech Shepherd (although not really a GSD) was just very difficult to get through the initial puppy stage but she settled very early and was a wonderful pet. But I could see how normal people () would struggle with a dog like that.

I do tend to favour the SL as I feel like they do more towards testing to have an all rounder where as too many WL breeders I have met show little regard for any kind of standard.

Thats not all by the way I know there are some truelly dedicated WL breeders.

I think we all need to take a step back occassionally and have someone nuetral to help us shape our breeding programs and if your dog can do what it was originally bred for that is wonderful. My advice for people is try not to pidgeon hole people who dont do it your way and try and get some experience in what they are doing - you never know you might learn something.

Ok that was a ramble so Im going to shut up now

[carlibud]

Very good post Shadow Walker.

Please Diablo dont let this thread end in a Sch debate, which has nothing to do with what the breed was bred for, its only a test isnt it and that wasnt what this thread was started for Thanks

[benshiva]

Very good post Shadow Walker.

Please Diablo dont let this thread end in a Sch debate, which has nothing to do with what the breed was bred for, its only a test isnt it and that wasnt what this thread was started for Thanks

I agree, it's getting very tiring VERY quickly!

[JulesP]

Carlibud my herding group has all sorts of different dogs attending. We have a couple of GSD! Also have Sammies, Belgians, Corgies, Lappies, Aussies, Kelpies, OES, Briads. It is very interesting to watch the different herding styles that the dogs have naturally.