How Many Breeds?

[SkySoaringMagpie]

At 4yrs old she has just had her first race start. It has involved stripping the weight off her and building a whole lot of muscle and increasing fitness which many judges seem unable to cope with. While I would love to do both show and race at the same time, reality has shown that it is unfortunatly very difficult, although IMO there is nothing more beautiful than a fit and muscled up grey in race condition.

It is something that has puzzled me too, but it is how it is I guess. I think a fit well muscled sighthound is much more attractive than a fat one, but I suppose what people consider "good condition" and "fat" varies. The kicker of course is that in breeds without coat fat can be used to obscure some conformational problems.

[Guest bigdogg]

I think many dogs can still do the job they were originally bred for - but saying that.. I think it would only be the slightest of of percentages of these dogs that can do the job day in day out and be extremely good at what they do.

Eg.. old mates town dog which is a border collie.. rounds up a few ducks and maybe some sheep.. This same dog may not have the makings of a quality stock working dog..

I think if your looking for a working dog you should buy pups from working parents.

There are plenty of show bred Border Collies who can and do work. Some dogs do both, and sometimes there are working and show dogs from the same litter. I took my first BC to a sheepdog training day where the trainer looked down her nose at the "bench dog" who was later to be a BISS winner . By the end of the day my "bench dog" had out worked all but one of the 20 or so working bred BCs and Kelpies, there on the day and I as the handler knew nothing about sheep. The trainer commented he was one of the best all round working dogs she had seen in BCs and would be an asset to any sheep station. My first show bitch came from a country kennel that successfully showed their BCs and Kelpies but sold most of their puppies as working dogs, not pets. The majority of show lines are not sold to purely working homes anymore because the dogs are usually not treated as well as they are in show, performance or pet homes. I never want to see one of my precious babies living tied up to a 44 gallon drum kennel and never groomed.

With any herding breeds some dogs will be better than others. Some dogs from working parents have no interest in working just as some of the show dogs won't work. For the specialised area of three sheep trialing then your odds are better with a puppy from successful trialing parents but there is still no guarantee. Three sheep trialing is very different to day to day farm work and some trial dogs are not much use on a farm.

Some lines in the herding breeds have lost a lot of their instinct but there are many Borders, Cattle Dogs. Stumpies, Kelpies and Aussies from show lines that can and do still work.

I didnt say all - i said most.. I knew someone would reply.. lol

That is some effort though.. A dog that has done nothing beating 19 other working dogs.. WOW - well done.

With any herding breeds some dogs will be better than others. Some dogs from working parents have no interest in working just as some of the show dogs won't work. For the specialised area of three sheep trialing then your odds are better with a puppy from successful trialing parents but there is still no guarantee. Three sheep trialing is very different to day to day farm work and some trial dogs are not much use on a farm.

I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said here..

Percentage wise one would expect a higher ratio of working dogs bred from working parents..

And yes - trial work is very different to the working dog in an open paddock.

[helen]

I think many dogs can still do the job they were originally bred for - but saying that.. I think it would only be the slightest of of percentages of these dogs that can do the job day in day out and be extremely good at what they do.

Eg.. old mates town dog which is a border collie.. rounds up a few ducks and maybe some sheep.. This same dog may not have the makings of a quality stock working dog..

I think if your looking for a working dog you should buy pups from working parents.

I think you just hit the nail on the head here.

In the Brittany there is less division of show/field dogs. In USA Brittanys have more Dual Champions (field trial and show) than all other Sporting breeds combined, although of course there are also breeders who are only field and breeders who are only show.

I am not a hunter, but have taken my dogs to the odd training day, as I was interested in trialling before I decided agility was my favorite activity, and one the dogs also love. Because I don't hunt with the dogs myself I would never go telling people what great gundogs they are as you will never really know, and not being a hunter yourself you wouldn't know how to select a dog for a hunting home, however I would be very confident on suggesting a dog for someone wanting to to agility or obedience.

The funniest was Bella's first go at finding and pointing game. She was sent off with a pointer. Before we started I remember being told the Pointer would always find the game first because they have a superior nose and not to be disappointed. Bella knew exactly what she was there for, went straight to where the bird was, she new it was there before we let her go. The Pointer was still searching for the bird some time later LOL.

The Brittany is popular with hunters in Australia, I have had my dogs around the gun club to test them with gun fire, you get swamped by people when you walk in with a Brittany

[kelpiekaye]

All the dogs I have had the pleasure of owning over the years have tended towards what they were bred for. Spud the beagle hunted with his nose, Chap the rotty worked the nieghbours cows when their working dog died, Oscar the border terrier hunted everything and suprisingly brought the cows in too. Juste my gsd was just a well adjusted girl that did anything I asked of her. My present dog a kelpie (show breeding) works her heart out and is only 8 months old. So I think most dogs will do what theyre bred for given the chance.

[Vickie]

I think many dogs can still do the job they were originally bred for - but saying that.. I think it would only be the slightest of of percentages of these dogs that can do the job day in day out and be extremely good at what they do.

true.

Definitions play such a big part in these threads. People seem to define the term work in so many ways. What is work to one person is not to another.

I think you can say a dog should work or a dog can work. Lots of people in these threads seem to use the word could.

I have one bitch that can work because she has worked by my definition of the word.

I have another bitch that should work, based on her breeding. She is fine pushing up to 20 sheep around a yard & in a paddock but I cannot say she can work because I have never spent a day doing what I would call real work with her.

I also have 2 dogs that can't work. Sure they do something with sheep but I would never say they could work because I have tried them & they can't.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Vickie

[Lady Flying Furball]

My Papillon continues the Pap tradition, being bred as a companion/ lap dog. He can be observed daily lying on the softest surface available, and as a friend of mine who looked after him for a few days said, he was an expert at "enjoying the cushions."

[Vickie]

By the end of the day my "bench dog" had out worked all but one of the 20 or so working bred BCs and Kelpies, there on the day and I as the handler knew nothing about sheep.

I am not sure what you mean by "out worked" I would love to come & watch your dog working one day. He sounds amazing since I probably know & admire most of the 20 or so working bred dogs he out worked. Where do you train?

[casowner]

My CASD is a Flock Guardian and that is what he does, he much prefers doing his "duty" than being a family companion, he enjoys our company for limited times and he stresses if taken inside or off the property. He is heavily bonded to all of us but watching his surroundings is far more important than cuddle time.

Here he is at one of his lookouts

Edited January 1, 2010 by casowner

[benshiva]

I know the feeling Caribud. I got sick and tired of defending my "Barbie" Border Collies. It used to upset me greatly when people used to run them down for being pretty and not the "ULTIMATE" working dog, despite the fact that not all purpose bred Borders go on to be working dogs as well. It as even suggested to me during one of the many tirades by some that Border Collies had no right to be in a show ring

I came to the realisation that until those people fed my dogs, loved my dogs, and contributed to their well being in any way, they had absolutely no power over what I do with my dogs. I love them dearly, they are my pride and joy, and I just couldn't give a rats ass anymore what others say about them I'll continue to breed and love my Barbie Borders

[sandgrubber]

In Aus we have what is called the ROM program to determine suitable breeding stock - they must complete 3 different parts to attain their ROM (Register Of Merit). These are their Australian Champion Title, Companion Dog Title and Working Aptitude Certification (Temperament Test). The ROM Committee and the National Dobermann Council of Australia see the ROM Program as our breeds future but it is not required to breed with an animal and I doubt that will ever be the case. Also the ROM, which is one of the most coverted and respected titles for a dobe to attain is not recognised by the ANKC.

In Germany dobes must have their Temp Test or they cannot attain their Champion title - so they must prove they have correct workability and temperament. I wish that dobes here had to have their WAC to attain CH Title - our breed would be in a much better place if that were the case. But I am part of a minority in our breed unfortunately.

Our temperament test does test a dobermann's core temperament and they should be intelligent enough to assess all situations and act with confidence and security.

I wish more breeds did formal temperament screening . . . for many of us, the only temperament testing done is in the show ring. I don't think that the combination of a) not showing aggression or noncompliance; and b) behaviour that shows liking a crowd and showing off in public is a good basis for selecting temperaments that should be passed on.

With Labbies, gun work has greatly declined but other tasks, eg, sniffer dog work, guide dog / therapy dog work, has picked up. The breed standard hasn't changed with the function of the breed. Fortunately, many of the attributes desired of a gentleman shooter's retrieving dog -- biddibility, lack of aggressive tendencies, soft mouth, good nose, and being an attentive and loving companion -- carry over well into new roles.

[dancinbcs]

By the end of the day my "bench dog" had out worked all but one of the 20 or so working bred BCs and Kelpies, there on the day and I as the handler knew nothing about sheep.

I am not sure what you mean by "out worked" I would love to come & watch your dog working one day. He sounds amazing since I probably know & admire most of the 20 or so working bred dogs he out worked. Where do you train?

I doubt you would know the working farm dogs from Victoria 25 years ago. The trainer was a well known breeder of Working Kelpies who bred trained and sold working Kelpies all over the world. The other dogs that turned up were full time working dogs from farms, not dogs involved in training for trials. Many of them were next to useless as they were assessed on three sheep, a small mob, a large mob and in the yards.

There was only one really good Kelpie among them and a smooth coat BC that had really strong eye on three sheep that would have been good for trials but it wouldn't do anything with the larger mobs or in the yards. My dog was 18 months old and had never seen sheep before but showed plenty of ability in all areas and the trainer was very impressed saying that he would make a great all round dog on a working sheep farm but wasn't really strong enough in eye to make a great trial dog. The other assorted Kelpies, and Kelpie/BC crosses showed very little aptitute at all given that they had all been raised with stock by farmers. They had no focus, wouldn't take direction, some ran from the sheep, others attacked them and the trainer was amazed that the fluffy "bench dog" was better than nearly all of them.

[JulesP]

Taking my adult border collies to see sheep for the first time was an amazing experience. Especially my female border. It was like for her the whole world just snapped into place. To see the instinct in these show dogs is amazing, well I think so. Could my girl have made a 'real' working dog? In the right hands I think she could have.

[RallyValley]

Chesapeake's are very much a dual purpose dog worldwide. Almost every top stud dog has CH and hunt titles (respective of thier country) and most top brood bitches do too. More dogs have working titles then conformation titles but almost all top dogs have both.

[voloclydes]

having lived on a farm forever... i feel your pain for those whose dogs don't work.

nothing more frustrating than a dog that won't work and having to chase the stoopid things your self, or the one that shows to much interest. chasing without being called off. *hangs head in shame* have seen many meet there end this way. great working parents does not always make for great working off spring. these days however doing more training.....(with the dally) i think most could be made good with different training methods. farmers often have methods which are often passed down from generation to generation which involve a belt for the wrong thing and no real reward for the right thing.

my jrt earn there keep as ratters and mousers.

the dally however has a cart but running along side is the last thing he wants, riding in style more his thing.

i think he's more of a posser/ pretty boy sort, he's in for a shock i want him to run under the cart for turn out events.... as he's only 18mo. so along way to go. he needs to learn how to be attached to me without crying... i think he will.... but a work in progress.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Taking my adult border collies to see sheep for the first time was an amazing experience. Especially my female border. It was like for her the whole world just snapped into place. To see the instinct in these show dogs is amazing, well I think so. Could my girl have made a 'real' working dog? In the right hands I think she could have.

I had a similar experience with my first Saluki - she saw the lure move away and she was off like a rocket, I had never seen her that "on" before in her life. It was like someone flicked a switch and she was All Business. Likewise the first time she was in a paddock when a hare came up.

I think if you've got a breed that has got a lot of working/hunting breeding in its history it's worth letting them get the opportunity if you can. I shed a small tear when I first saw her go, it's quite an amazing experience watching, as you say, the world snap into place for them.

[covejack]

Jack Russell's were bred to hunt Fox out of the den, but my four have hunted and killed everything from bugs to rats. They are also very good coach potatoes. :D

[Nekhbet]

I think a lot of public attitude stunts our ability to work our dogs

hunting is cruel

bitework is bad

herding clubs are rare as hens teeth

etc etc

We dont have the opportunities and culture a lot of the other countries do where people would pack the dogs for a weekend hunt, keep dogs to protect or keep the property clear of vermin etc.

It's nice to see a dog out working the way it was bred to, and doing well in it too. More breed clubs should be running events on a regular basis to get their breeders and owners involved in breed specific activities to help perpetuate the idea that some breeds are more then just lap dogs and there are many things you can do with them!

[poodlefan]

Personally I think quite a few folk who think their 'show' line dogs can work are deluding themselves.

"Interest" is not proof of working ability. It's an indicator only. A gundog that shows interest in birds (as do my poodles and Whippet) is not necessarily a gundog that will work at pointing, flushing or retrieving.

The proof of the instinct to work is working. If people are that convinced their dogs retain the aptitude there are ways to test it.

Personally I take my hat off to any breeder who both exhibits and works their dogs. They are few and far between and frankly I think if more people took an interest in the working side of their breeds there would be more opportunities to give dogs an outlet for their instinct and a better standard of dog in the long run.

Somewhere between "bench" and "working' lines there is an overlap. Where that overlap sits is where I think most breeders should be aiming for with their breed programs.

A beautiful but timid Dobermann, a GSD that hides behind its owners legs when strangers approach, a hard mouthed Retriever.. they're all out there.

If there were objective working tests for more breeds and a working and a CH title were required for GR CH I think many breeds would be in a far better position than they are today.

There is an old wives tale that says the darker a Golden Retriever, the greater it's instinct for work. Makes you wonder where that breed is heading.

Edited January 2, 2010 by poodlefan

[Guest Baylord]

Bloodhounds are another breed that is still capable of doing the work they were bred for to this day. In WA the law won’t use them, or allow them to be used due to legislation having to be changed. Unfortunately the SES here have now brought in new guidelines which make it virtually impossible for a bloodhound to be utilized as they insist on a heap of obedience tests, which, most are off lead, and are to be passed prior to joining.

At all times a bloodhound should be working on lead in harness.

The last thing you want to do is exert too much obedience over a working bloodhound as you then take away the ability for them to think for themselves.

In the USA the bloodhounds are used constantly in SAR and law enforcement, there in the majority of states the Bloodhounds evidence is STILL taken as testimony in a court of law. As long as the dog is registered, is a proven trailer and has adequate up to-date records, there should be no difference between that of a show dog or a working dog.

It is not uncommon for a number of show dogs to be called out for a search after they have gotten home from a show.

Through the American Bloodhound Club you are able to achieve trailing titles.

One of my boys – Am Ch Baylord Apogee True Blue CGC, EECT, MT MTX not only became one of the first Australian bred boys to earn his confirmation title, but also was inducted into the American Bloodhound Club’s Working Hall of Fame, 6 months after his father was. Father and son were also undefeated in brace in shows and specialty shows for a number of years before they were retired.

The trailing requirements to earn these titles can be viewed by clicking on this link

http://www.bloodhounds.org/page1/theclub.html , and then clicking on the ABC trailing Trial forms, which is on the left hand side.

Not having any qualified judges here, lack of interested owners and hounds, and distance makes this impossible to achieve within Australia.

In the UK they too also have trailing trials for bloodhounds, they also have bloodhound packs for Hunting The Cleanboot, instead of foxhunting as blood sports are now being ruled out, they have a pack of bloodhounds chase a human runner who has set out a couple of hours prior.

[Akayla]

First off I think its wonderful that everyone is discussing this is an adult manner :D

Second I just had to add Poodlefan that my bitch like most German Shepherds like to take the stance of head between my legs - I think its just a GSD thing , no matter how big they are they want to be as close as possible. It hasnt stopped her stepping out and getting inbetween me and a threat yet

PS - Incase you cant tell from the screen that was my attempt at a joke ;)

I would personally love to see more available to "test" or working breeds :D